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National Broadband Network

I would agree that all of the infrastructure projects mentioned above were immensely important and extremely controversial at the time. But there are three fundamental differences between them and the NBN rollout.

Firstly, there were no alternatives. There are lots of ways of delivering similar capabilities to what the NBN may offer.

Secondly, no one else would provide the infrastructure if the government didn't get involved. But we know others want to get involved and will get involved if there is a profit to be made. Subsidies can be used to encourage the technology to be installed in the non-profitable areas.

Thirdly, and in my opinion, the most important. Not only were there no alternatives, but the likelihood of obsolescence of the infrastructure was remote. O'Connor's water pipeline to the gold fields is still in use today. For broadband, we are dealing with one of the most dynamic areas of technology, with few people even as recently as 10 years ago capable of predicting what we would have available today.

It is this last point, together with the fact that the government is betting so much on one particular implementation that I find frightening. Let the private sector take the bets and stand or fall by their decisions. This is something that IFocus said could be delivered by the NBN.....

Just on the health thing you would have devices stuck to you to monitor vital signs plus back to a facility so you could stay at home rather than clogging up hospitals. Real time voice / video would allow for remote analysis

There is the possibility that an ill person at home in bed could connect some sort of probe to their body that, via the NBN, could allow remote diagnostics of their illness and possibly even remote remedial action. Rolling out the NBN to every home would allow that. But let's say the probe equipment at the patient's end cost $50K. Few could afford that, so rolling it out to every home when only 2% could afford the necessary equipment, is very wasteful. OK, so the equipment is leased out to who needs it. Then you have issues of needing to go to hospital or some central point to pick up the equipment. What if it needs a nurse to connect up (how many can connect up to an ECG?. What about incapacitated people?). What about false readings from improper connections that might trigger a need to send an ambulance? Do you send a nurse out every time a diagnosis is needed just to be sure? Then maybe instead of doing it at home themselves, the best compromise is that the patient goes to a nearby clinic, community centre or perhaps the nursing home medical office for the diagnosis. That would solve the cost problem and alleviate needing expertise at each patient's home, but now we have the situation that roll out to each home was unnecessary, at least for this particular application. OK lets assume that the probe at the patient's end is not complex to attach or expensive to buy. Perhaps nothing more complex that one of those heart monitoring meters that runners wear. So the patient can do it themselves and can be diagnosed remotely. But they have to be either at home or close to an NBN access point. But in the meantime, some bright spark has made a Bluetooth version of the probe that can talk to an application on an iPhone or similar smartphone and that application can simple dial up the hospital if it detects an issue, or maybe the application just relays the probe results every half hour and the diagnosis is done at the remote centre. So instead of having to connect up via an NBN access point, you have 24 hours diagnosis from anywhere using your smartphone and a probe. So the money spent on the NBN in anticipation of what IFocus said could be delivered has been made obsolete by alternative and more flexible delivery methods.

I am not trying to suggest any one of the above outcomes is more likely than the other. The point I am trying to make is that the government is betting $43B on one outcome, when it has no idea of the practicalities of all the other components necessary to deliver the complete end to end solution and when there is a possibility that their envisaged solution may actually be less flexible than other solutions.

Not to labour a point. But the government has touted the advantages that the NBN will deliver to education. Looking at industry trends, I would be betting that a mobile device like the iPad connected to broadband wireless will be the access method for most educational and information content in the future, not some home based WiFi network. I may be wrong, but I am not betting with other people's money as the government is doing.
 
Great examples Ifocus. Once again examples of a bygone era of courage and will that made this country what it is today. Precious little on the horizon unfortunately

Yes people seemed to have more balls in those days didn't they. Maybe the genes weren't passed on. :D
 
Anyone worried that there is no business plan for this thing by the way? Just build it and they will come? No numbercrunching as to who is actually going to use it either.
Yes, it's just incredible that they are going ahead with this very expensive programme with zero cost-benefit analysis. No Labor politician who has been asked has been able (that I've heard) to quote costs to the consumer, neither do they appear to be able to answer the question as to what the take up rate will be.

I would agree that all of the infrastructure projects mentioned above were immensely important and extremely controversial at the time. But there are three fundamental differences between them and the NBN rollout........
Completely sensible post, as always.
 
bellenuit, what you say makes a lot of sense. Labor strategists think they only need to trot out "health" and "education" (because these issues are at the top of peoples concerns) to garner support for a massive program like NBN.

I have no idea what is driving them to do this. They obviously think they are on a winner.

At the present rate of progress the system will be superseded before it is completed, and it will be competing with a user friendly cheaper product.
 
Hi Bellenuit dont want to get caught up in a p!$$ing contest but a few points of yours I'll answer


I would agree that all of the infrastructure projects mentioned above were immensely important and extremely controversial at the time. But there are three fundamental differences between them and the NBN rollout.

Agree there are differences but there also fundamental similarities.


Firstly, there were no alternatives. There are lots of ways of delivering similar capabilities to what the NBN may offer.

Actually there was water could be hauled and there were a number of other sites where the Harbour could be placed again at lower cost.

The water was expensive but no where near the immediate cost of the pipe line project.

Secondly, no one else would provide the infrastructure if the government didn't get involved.

There was existing infrastructure for ships and water mostly provided by businessmen or merchants but it did not provided for a future of expansion or growth.

But we know others want to get involved and will get involved if there is a profit to be made. Subsidies can be used to encourage the technology to be installed in the non-profitable areas.

This goes to the argument who and why build infrastructure for the future growth of the country its no doubt a thread in its self.

Thirdly, and in my opinion, the most important. Not only were there no alternatives, but the likelihood of obsolescence of the infrastructure was remote. O'Connor's water pipeline to the gold fields is still in use today. For broadband, we are dealing with one of the most dynamic areas of technology, with few people even as recently as 10 years ago capable of predicting what we would have available today.

Same as the NBN when O'Connor build the pipe line they used timber for much of the line to make the pipe, similar way as barrels were made the water pumped via steam engines fired boilers.
As technologies improved so the upgrades were done on the pipe line same would apply to NBN.



It is this last point, together with the fact that the government is betting so much on one particular implementation that I find frightening. Let the private sector take the bets and stand or fall by their decisions. This is something that IFocus said could be delivered by the NBN.....



There is the possibility that an ill person at home in bed could connect some sort of probe to their body that, via the NBN, could allow remote diagnostics of their illness and possibly even remote remedial action. Rolling out the NBN to every home would allow that. But let's say the probe equipment at the patient's end cost $50K.

Instrumentation has come a long way with the down sizing and component reliability best example to is the motor car now covered in devices that are extremely cheap.
Not long ago you would also needed to employ a heap of instrument techs to maintain the wigits.

Process control used in chemical, oil and gas production has changed dramatically also as a result but much of if not all of the comms is still hard wired for reliability wireless is still a bit vulnerable on that front.
 
I'm not sure what people think fibre will be surpassed by. The main cost is installation. Upgrades don't need to relay the fibre - only equipment at the ends of the fibre.

It'll be a long time before wireless data rates get remotely close to wired data rates. Probably why many use wireless LANs instead of wireless broadband providers where possible. Better speeds and lower costs.

The Libs want private enterprise to do most of the work. The Libs better develop suitable competition laws and regulation because it struggled a lot under Howard years. The recent fine for Telstra blocking competition shows how much of a joke it is.

As for the cost per citizen - span the cost out for a few years and you'll notice lots of citizens spend just as much on various vices like gambling losses, cigarettes and alcohol.

A common platform with open access will see better potential scale for new competition and applications. Mish-mash of systems will limit scale.

I'm sure once upon a time people didn't think the copper network should be government built as it was a product for only the higher classes.
 
As for the cost per citizen - span the cost out for a few years and you'll notice lots of citizens spend just as much on various vices like gambling losses, cigarettes and alcohol.
Doing that though is telling people how to spend their money.
 
Doing that though is telling people how to spend their money.

Well aren't we all pretty much being told that we are spending 2k each on super fast broadband, what's the big deal :dunno: 2K is what i lost on my CTO trade last financial year....least im getting something for this 2K. :D
 
Well aren't we all pretty much being told that we are spending 2k each on super fast broadband, what's the big deal :dunno: 2K is what i lost on my CTO trade last financial year....least im getting something for this 2K. :D

It will be more like $10K each if you exclude all that don't pay taxes. And if perhaps you are someone who prefers to access the internet from a mobile wireless platform, because that is more in line with your lifestyle, will you have to pay additional for that on top of NBN wired access which you may not want or only infrequently use?
 
Well aren't we all pretty much being told that we are spending 2k each on super fast broadband, what's the big deal :dunno: 2K is what i lost on my CTO trade last financial year....least im getting something for this 2K. :D
All I'm saying is that it's socialist.
 
LOL Tranny...your sounding like a typical city centric Australian :rolleyes: don't you have something to do with a pearl farm? .. anyway one of the reasons why its so expensive here is joining all the country dots, regional centres far from the coast (see map)

I would think it works a bit like mining in that the higher the density of people/mineral then the more cost effective it is to connect/remove it.

The previous numbers for take up of new technology both here and o/s means that without a doubt the demand is there.

http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/upload/Coverage - Australia.pdf
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LOL So_Cyclical ....... you are right. Me and my oysters don't know much but we can lift heavy things.

We are talking about 2k for every man woman and child here. Not just the ones that pay taxes and lose 2k on a bad trade. Add in cost blowouts (which will happen) and the interest component for the borroings of the Govt to implement and it may well be closer to 10k for the taxpayer to fund.

Like I said earlier .... why do we need it ?? Faster ASF? Quicker pr0n? Would this money not be better spent on internal USEFUL infrastructure like hospitals and roads? I am sure my 83 year old parents will LOVE having fibre optic cabling to their home instead of a Doctor when they get sick.

Yeppers .... gets my vote for sure. :banghead:
 
And if perhaps you are someone who prefers to access the internet from a mobile wireless platform, because that is more in line with your lifestyle, will you have to pay additional for that on top of NBN wired access which you may not want or only infrequently use?

Over time all wireless networks will use the NBN as a backbone....even some dude living in a shed out the back of woop woop will benefit in ways yet to be totally understood.

All I'm saying is that it's socialist.

Well we do expect our governments to look at the big picture and plan for the future, make good long term decisions....well i expect that, i know the majority of ASF members are Coalition voters so i have to assume these people were happy with the do nothing Howard approach and will vote for '1 vote Tony' in the hope that he will also do nothing.

I cant see the point of governments that do nothing. :banghead:
 
Like I said earlier .... why do we need it ?? Faster ASF? Quicker pr0n?

Many people thought the same about ADSL (that initially maxed out at 1500 kbit) yet many people have now dumped dialup. New uses will arrive for the platform. I would expect all the states to love it. Jobs during construction and some expenditure in their states. Later the GST on the services.

As for cost blowouts, the currently active portion is 10% under budget.

Has anyone evaluated how much it would cost to rollout the current copper network?
 
Many people thought the same about ADSL (that initially maxed out at 1500 kbit) yet many people have now dumped dialup.

Sure thing boofhead. No question new technology is "the way forward" for want of a better phrase. My point is would not 43 BILLION DOLLARS be better spent on hospitals, roads, police, mental health, schools ad infinitum?

This is like saying I have planted a new garden in the front of my house when the house actually needed a new roof. I would much rather see money spent of this magnitude improving what we have got before it is spent on a technology that will only be used by a few. And for what again? What did we do before the internet? HUH ? I am not for one second advocating we go back to stone tablets as a medium by the way. We already have a good internet system that seems to work just fine. No, not everybody in Australia has access to it but I am sure that they would prefer to have a roof over their heads before they can download information at blinding speed. Think N.T aboriginals for a start. Where are those houses by the way?

There already is high speed internet in hospitals and schools. Approx 50% in fact. Yes yes yes it is not 100 gigawhatjamathingys per second but who cares? Let's fix what we have first and worry about the future technology once we have our house in order.

Or am I the only person thinks that to drive a Porsche at high speed you cannot have pot holes in the road ? :confused:
 
Well we do expect our governments to look at the big picture and plan for the future, make good long term decisions....well i expect that, i know the majority of ASF members are Coalition voters so i have to assume these people were happy with the do nothing Howard approach and will vote for '1 vote Tony' in the hope that he will also do nothing.

I cant see the point of governments that do nothing. :banghead:
Is 6 to 7% return on investment sufficient, inparticular if the government ultimately wants to sell it ?
 
Is 6 to 7% return on investment sufficient, inparticular if the government ultimately wants to sell it ?

The Govt spends 100 billion annually on welfare...what sort of return on investment do you think would be an appropriate return?

Or the 14 Billion they will spend on the Joint strike Fighter...what sort of a return should we expect from that spend?

Something that seems to be over looked is that when the NBN is finished all wireless telephony services will be backboned thru it, as well as voice/video phone, land lines (home phone) services....its more like we are replacing our half century old patchwork network.

And the Coalition policy is basically to keep patching up our old system, spending alot less, though still billions on a system that is 50 years old...FTTH/C is inevitable, now or in 5 / 10 years time it will have to be done.
 
just going to repost an answer to a question of "What are we going to use the NBN for/how is it going to aid us economically" on another forum:

Apart from Japan/South Korea/Singapore/Norway/Sweden/Finland, we'll have the most ubiquitous & advanced information platform laying the foundations for growth in:

- consumer-focused products:
-- VOD (Television over IP, Video shops will truly become a thing of the past)
-- Video-calls/conferencing - the NBN will thrown open the gates for Customer Premises Equipment (CPE) makers to test new products here rather than elsewhere - see voice activated/touch-screen screens to replace the telephone over the longer-term
-- Although you don't need very fast net to use the likes of Facebook/Twitter et al, having a ubiquitous network that allows you to do so much more than what we currently have (purely in terms of network throughput) will give us a huge competitive advantage over other economies for software houses / entrepreneurs to create new applications and test them in a good sized wealthy market.

- content creation-focused industries:
-- What's the next video standard after 1080pHD etc? We don't know, but a network such as the NBN will be able to deliver whatever new bandwidth-intenstive applications that will be developed in future
-- cloud computing, best you read wikipedia about this.
--- international data warehousing - this has actually more to do about the explosion of international capacity that is happening right now: a stable government and extremely low levels of corruption at all levels of our society means we're attractive to foreign governments (of which we no doubt have treaties with) and foreign companies for storing data on the other side of the world.
-- local media production - TV/Movies/etc, the NBN is a great tool to transmit productions - whatever they are - en masse and cheaply to consumers - thus lowering production costs and likely to generate more growth in this sector (ties in directly with the consumer).

- government-related uses:
-- Emergency response networks, if all consumer devices created from here on it are designed to work with the NBN - be it Fibre/4G/SAT - it's likely every device hanging off the network will be able to be used to distribute targetted information to end-users with ease and in possibly the fastest way possible - likely to compliment TV/Radio exceptionally well in this area.
-- E-Health is talked about a ****load. Dont think I really need to explain this in too much detail other than what you have a fat data pipe leading to the overwhelmingly majority of Australians and the rest covered by equally fat wireless pipes video will become ubiquitous and health providers (and tech companies in the health sector) can harness it in many different ways.

- CPE manufacturers:
-- touched on it above, but this is more of an R&D and eventually exporting growth sector: NEC, Cisco, D-link, Alcatel-Lucent and many more CPE/telco providers are already here and are likely to be big beneficiaries of the NBN owing to the fact they can Research, Develop and Test new hardware/products in a wealthy market and potentially even manufacture and export on a large scale from Australia

- general productivity benefits:
-- again comes back to the ubiquitous video applications that would allow office/service industry workers to work from home or even on the go (see below). Thus reducing demand on transport networks - private/public - better work/life balance leads to happier and more productive (I know there's another debate here entirely) tax payers - government receives same amount of tax from them, but doesn't need to spend as much to get them to and from work - good budgetary outcome over the longer-term.
-- Health industry resources can be better deployed - rather than concentrating them in Hospitals and Clinics, they can be housed in offices - think call centre but with video - in centralised or decentralised locations or even the health professionals can work from home and treat people in their own homes.

And all this is going to require venture capital, another growth sector for us.

___________

One thing that the NBNCo hasn't touched on but I think would work really well beyond the initial construction and switched over phase of the project - as Fibre is going to 93% of the population, think about a bog-standard suburban street with a strand of fibre going to every house. All the NBN need do is install some kind of wifi (possibly next generation / longer-range / higher-bandwidth capability) base station where the fibre terminates on each house and that would allow Retail Service Providers to bundle fixed and wireless connections together thus allowing consumers to use fixed network devices in the home but also keep the same connectivity with mobile devices.

This does beg the question about competition with current Telco mobile networks which are likely to be upgraded to the same technology as what the NBN will offer to wireless access areas, but regardless - fixed and mobile networking is likely to converge in this area and again opening up a new market for CPE manufacturers and content-providers to exploit...
 
And with Telstra revenue dropping through the floor on fixed lines who is going to take up this wonderful new technology? Can you tell me how much it is going to cost to access? Got any data ? Thought not because there is not even a business model on outcomes from the Govt. All they are doing is telling us this is the best thing since sliced white bread.

How about this then .....

An $11 billion deal with Telstra means the NBN intends to run 85 per cent of the fibre connections underground in ducting owned by the company.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/need-for-speed-in-battle-of-broadband-20100814-12424.html

GIVE ME A FRIGGING BREAK !
 
And with Telstra revenue dropping through the floor on fixed lines who is going to take up this wonderful new technology?

Well for a start Telstra's 9+ million home phone customers will be forced over to it. :)

Can you tell me how much it is going to cost to access? Got any data ?

Here's a link to the NBN plans iiNet are offering in Tasmania...starts at $49 a month. http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/

And below ill post a speed test comparison of my ADSL2 connection in Sydney and some guy with NBN in Tasmania both pinging a Melbourne server.
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And with Telstra revenue dropping through the floor on fixed lines who is going to take up this wonderful new technology?

Read the full report. Telstra is losing retail customers. People are making less landline calls.

From page 16 of one of the PDF releases to the ASX,
Wholesale revenue declined by 2.6% as the ULL and LSS build out
continued detrimentally impacting the wholesale business. The
migration from on-net resale services to ULL/LSS was reflected in
wholesale PSTN lines declining by 32 thousand and DSL lines
declining by 106 thousand during the year. ULL SIOs increased by
133 thousand and LSS SIOs increased by 155 thousand
which indicates less ISPs are reselling Telstra DSLAM products and the ISPs have installed more of their own DSLAMs.
 
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