More Religious Nuts

[trainspotter]

Wait a minute Sunder. You told me that you believe in the Bible. I said if YOU are OK with this happening to kiddies then you are OK with me. What I meant by this if you are so convinced this act is OK because it is written in the bible then you are a man of conviction. I admire that in a person.

"I don't believe the bible is relative. It's absolute. What God designed us for yesterday, applies as much today."

So you are Ok with this happening? Remember the Bible is absolute.

 

[trainspotter]

Nope Sunder. Nothing about GOOD behaviour and religion enforcers at all.

Primatologists like Frans de Waal have long argued that the roots of human morality are evident in social animals like apes and monkeys. The animals’ feelings of empathy and expectations of reciprocity are essential behaviors for mammalian group living and can be regarded as a counterpart of human morality.

AND

Habits are learned from the society we live in. Parents, situations, experiences all assist you in making the RIGHT decision. This theory implies that parents and teachers are not teaching children the rules of correct behavior from scratch but are, at best, giving shape to an innate behavior. And it suggests that religions are not the source of moral codes but, rather, social enforcers of instinctive moral behavior.

 

[Sunder]

Wait a minute Sunder. You told me that you believe in the Bible. I said if YOU are OK with this happening to kiddies then you are OK with me. What I meant by this if you are so convinced this act is OK because it is written in the bible then you are a man of conviction. I admire that in a person.

"I don't believe the bible is relative. It's absolute. What God designed us for yesterday, applies as much today."

So you are Ok with this happening? Remember the Bible is absolute.

I'm starting to seriously doubt your powers of comprehension. The passage you refer to is:

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

There is no instruction to me to dash kiddies on a rock. Therefore, I do not need to be okay with having to dash kids on rocks.

There is no statement that God did this. Note the future tense of the writing. Therefore I do not need to be okay with worshipping a god that dashes kids against rocks.

This is a statement for a desire for justice. It's no different from someone saying "You'll get what's coming to you, for what you've done". Babylon slaughted the Jewish children - the ones too young to be used as slaves, by smashing them on rocks. For someone who went through what the author of the poem did, I'm comfortable with them saying "You'll get what's coming to you".

There are lots of stories in the bible of people doing evil, that doesn't mean that the bible advocates evil. There are even stories of good people wishing evil upon evil people. This does not mean the bible advocates us taking revenge.

Besides, if you really knew your bible, there are plenty of other juicier passages you could have used, which require a lot more explaining. You really are grasping at straws here.

 

[Bobby]

Not sure where you are going with this?

No, I would not like to be an arbiter of this. If the bible says it's wrong, then to me it's wrong, even if another religion says it's okay.

Let me get this straight. I am not defending any religion. I am not even defending Christianity, much less Islam. I am defending the authority of the bible. If the bible has no authority, then it is no better than Buddha saying "Don't kill animals", or Muslims saying "Kill infidels". It is just another relative morals system.

I don't believe the bible is relative. It's absolute. What God designed us for yesterday, applies as much today. Murder hurts today as much as it did when Cain killed Abel.

Thanks , now I know what I'm dealing with .

Tell me this , whats real for you , thats YOU ~ how do you think outside your bible ? is there any nebulous areas you feel that just don't do it for you .

 

[GumbyLearner]

Thanks , now I know what I'm dealing with .

Tell me this , whats real for you , thats YOU ~ how do you think outside your bible ? is there any nebulous areas you feel that just don't do it for you .

I usually weigh up Deuteronomy Chapter 28 vs. Goldman Sucks to establish
a reality ?

But that's just me!

 

[trainspotter]

OOOoeeeerrr !! My comprehension powers have left me !! Te he.

To say this is like "You will get what is coming to you" is a bit far fetched? Is this your interpretation or is this is what is written? Is there any need to go into an in depth juicy analysis of the better bits of the good book?

As for clutching at straws, well, I will leave that for the Muslim bombers to sort out.

 

[GumbyLearner]

OOOoeeeerrr !! My comprehension powers have left me !! Te he.

To say this is like "You will get what is coming to you" is a bit far fetched? Is this your interpretation or is this is what is written? Is there any need to go into an in depth juicy analysis of the better bits of the good book?

As for clutching at straws, well, I will leave that for the Muslim bombers to sort out.

In a stand up fight the Muslim bombers are a bunch of pussies! No shame, no gain.

 

[Sunder]

Thanks , now I know what I'm dealing with .

Tell me this , whats real for you , thats YOU ~ how do you think outside your bible ? is there any nebulous areas you feel that just don't do it for you .

That's a very short question with a very long answer.

The bible is not a fixed methodology, or an answer book. The bible does not give me an answer to everything in life. It doesn't say "Speculative investment is wrong, invest only in productive investment". Nor does it say "Investing in sin industries like prostitution is wrong". The bible is a framework, which Jesus summed up in two very short sentences:

Matthew 22:
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

From this, Christians work out what is right and wrong. When a church leader figures it out, then tells you what to do, this becomes religion, which is what I am ardently against. When a church leader sees a warning against drunkeness, but forgets that Jesus turns water into wine, and tells all his followers that alcohol is evil, and they should totally abstain, this is religion, misses the point.

The second part, verse 40, is where the bible can be more specific. Where laws *hang* off the two commandments.

Do not steal,
do not murder (not do not kill)
do not bear false testimony (not do not lie)
respect your parents...

These are all more specific guidelines that fit into the Christian framework, and warn us when we're outside acceptable behaviour. But if you had to take a defribulator without asking to rescusciate someone, would you do it? If you could shoot the terrorist before he detonated his explosives vest, would you do it? Religion doesn't allow it, the Christian moral framework does.

To answer your question, is anything nebulous and gray? Yes. Almost everything is. And no, not really, everything can be derived from base principles. Love my God, love those I interact with.

 

[Bobby]

I usually weigh up Deuteronomy Chapter 28 vs. Goldman Sucks to establish
a reality ?

But that's just me!

Why not !
The prison-planet is a direction

 

[Sunder]

Well, it is well past time that good Christians should still be up </sarcasm>

The way this is going, it'll probably be at least 6 pages longer before I get to get back to this thread. It has been stimulating seeing how some people think (or fail to think) though.

Hopefully we've moved on to other interesting topics regarding irrational religious behaviour to debate next time I'm on.

Cheers! (or God bless, to those who would care?)

Sunder.

 

[Bobby]

To answer your question, is anything nebulous and gray? Yes. Almost everything is. And no, not really, everything can be derived from base principles. Love my God, love those I interact with.

OK Sunder , you now have my respect , thats very rare for me to say that for a religious individual .

AS you age & enjoy the wonder of life , open your mind to the freedom without religion

 

[>Apocalypto<]

Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, tortured and murdered millions and were militant atheists.

Very poor logic to pretend religion is the root of all wrong.

don't forget Hitler

 

[Stormin_Norman]

its dogmatic beliefs that are the problem.

the greatest example is religion.

 

[GumbyLearner]

its dogmatic beliefs that are the problem.

the greatest example is religion.

Exactly Stormin.

The problem is always lying down between the rational being vs. the religious dogmatic zealot.

I don't subscribe to either.

 

[wayneL]

Exactly Stormin.

The problem is always lying down between the rational being vs. the religious dogmatic zealot.

I don't subscribe to either.

Religion isn't the only source of dogmatic zealots. Politics is another field that immediately comes to mind. In fact they're in everything.

It's a human failing.

 

[Boggo]

don't forget Hitler

Its not the Hitler's, pol pots and lenin's etc that are the problem, none of them would have had any success if they hadn't had followers who blindly accepted what they were told without question.

All Hitler had to do was generate a bit of fear, give a bunch of mindless idiots a uniform and tell them that they were the superior chosen ones and point them in any direction and off they went without question.

Anyone starting to see the similarity here, nothing has changed.
If its associated with a religious belief then its even more justifiable with any of the many socially challenged loony brigades.

:nono:

 

[GumbyLearner]

Its not the Hitler's, pol pots and lenin's etc that are the problem, none of them would have had any success if they hadn't had followers who blindly accepted what they were told without question.

All Hitler had to do was generate a bit of fear, give a bunch of mindless idiots a uniform and tell them that they were the superior chosen ones and point them in any direction and off they went without question.

Anyone starting to see the similarity here, nothing has changed.
If its associated with a religious belief then its even more justifiable with any of the many socially challenged loony brigades.

:nono:

Precisely.

 

[bunyip]

From the Christian perspective, the Muslim who kills 3000 by flying a plane into a building, is no worse off* than an Atheist who works at the RSPCA and donates blood every month.

With regards to charitable works done by atheists though, here's a challenge anyone can take up. List all the non-Christian charities you can, and I bet you over 90% of them are more like "special interest groups", rather than true charities - Greenpeace, WSPCA, WWF, Heart Foundation, Diabetes Australia, <list medical condition here>. List all the Christian charities, and see where their interest lies - Salvation Army, Anglicare, Red Cross (no longer officially Christian, but look up its roots).



* Quick edit before I'm accused of anything. Notice I said no worse off, not simply, no worse. Of course, the bible has a very strong stance against murder, but the final judgement is the same, hence no worse off.

If a mass murdering Muslim who flys a plane into a building is no worse off than an atheist who works at the RSPCA and donates blood every month, then that really highlights the absurdity of some Christian beliefs.

Atheist charities? No, I don't know of any, for the simple reason that atheists don't see any need to form themselves into organisations specific to atheists.
However, I do know many atheists who are very decent people and have given decades of dedicated service to their communities through volunteer work with service clubs, coastguards, and many other organisations.
Nobody is disputing the good work done by Christian charities. On this particular thread though, it doesn't get much mention, simply because it's outside the topic of the thread.

The Bible has a very strong stance against murder??
Are you sure about that? True, one of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not kill'.
But then in its typical contradictory style, the Bible goes on to tell numerous stories that glorify murder.
It says 'an eye for an eye'.......clearly an invitation to respond in kind if someone was to kill a member of your family, or commit some other act of atrocity against you.
The Bible tells you to kill your son if he's a drunkard.
I could give many other examples, but I won't bother.

 

[bunyip]

Sunder - I'm curious.......You make all these claims about God, but how do you know God exists? And if he does exist, how did he come into existence - who or what created him?

 

[Knobby22]

If a mass murdering Muslim who flys a plane into a building is no worse off than an atheist who works at the RSPCA and donates blood every month, then that really highlights the absurdity of some Christian beliefs.

Atheist charities? No, I don't know of any, for the simple reason that atheists don't see any need to form themselves into organisations specific to atheists.
However, I do know many atheists who are very decent people and have given decades of dedicated service to their communities through volunteer work with service clubs, coastguards, and many other organisations.
Nobody is disputing the good work done by Christian charities. On this particular thread though, it doesn't get much mention, simply because it's outside the topic of the thread.

The Bible has a very strong stance against murder??
Are you sure about that? True, one of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not kill'.
But then in its typical contradictory style, the Bible goes on to tell numerous stories that glorify murder.
It says 'an eye for an eye'.......clearly an invitation to respond in kind if someone was to kill a member of your family, or commit some other act of atrocity against you.
The Bible tells you to kill your son if he's a drunkard.
I could give many other examples, but I won't bother.

I think you should look at the new testament. The Christian bit.