Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yeah, we should all go 'commando style', that way we won't get our knickers in a knot! LOL

I don't think we need to get our knickers in a knot over this issue anyway, I would be very surprised if there will be any profit to split hairs over, more likely a loss. Seamisty

.....now now girls, don't forget that most on here are taking blood pressure tablets. You don't want to have us reaching for the pill box now , do you?

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It’s hard to tell if Seamisty - a rep of the AG realises the significane of this. Here’s extract of an article with JH saying she expects OCV to get north of $20 million for the PIF...


For JohnH and Seamisty - I added the underline to the above article.

Well that would be absolutely freaking wonderful Dora if she has to pay that because then that would mean that the PIF was in a healthier state that most of its poor unit holders and we would be killing the pig. We wouldn't be on here bitching, we would be a cashed up bunch of happy little vegemites off spending our divvies. The only significance here of importance is wether JH can hold the PIF above water until the economy picks up and this Fund doesn't sink altogether. If you and your bunch of not so happy chappies can prove negligence or wrong doing by JH by all means do so. Innuendo and surmising doesn't quite hold up in court though, so make sure you have some concrete prove before you waste any money on legal representation. Meanwhile, I have to take the health of my fellow holders into consideration, G Dame has already expressed concern about holders topping themselves and JohnH is running out of pills so will TRY to be a bit more subtle in future. Seamisty

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WC have to pay four times profit of WIM not four time profit of the PIF.
WC have to pay net tangible assets of WIM not of the PIF.

WIM is no longer the RE of any funds. It won't make a profit in the 12 month period following the acquisition. WC plan for WIM to no longer be a licensed RE and will probably have no assets by March 2009 when the price for the PIF will be calculated.

Seamisty & Co., please re-read Dora's post again and see if you can get the drift. Seamisty you posted the facts regarding the purchase price WC contracted to pay for the PIF. Read it carefully.

IT IS 4 X NET PROFIT OF OCTAVIAR INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED (NOW KNOWN AS WELLINGTON INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED) FOR THE 1ST YEAR + NET TANGIBLE ASSET VALUE OF OIM (NOW WIM) AS AT 12MONTHS AFTER AQUISITION.

THE FUND'S PROFITS (LOSSES) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT !!!

To repeat your own quote in your post 3626 when referring to someone elses comments - "IT'S HARDLY ROCKET SCIENCE".

If WIM were still the RE and they were to receive management fees before May 2009 (representing their net profit as all costs are paid by the Fund), then purchase price would be 4 x that amount.

WIM are no longer RE !! WIM will have no net profit !!!

Please also re-read Dora's post regarding the significance of this to PIF. If WC had to pay a purchase price (based on WIM's net profit) to OCV, then as the PIF is a creditor of OCV, it would mean more recovery of what we are owed.

Can you see a conflict of interest here (it's not rocket science).

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty,

When posting information for the benefit of others, please try to ensure that you give complete and accurate information.

1. Management Fees - management fee of up to 0.7% p.a. inc.GST of the Gross Value of the Assets under Management. JH has stated that this value would be based on 45c/unit.

2. Other Management Costs - estimated at 0.32% or $1.32mil. We have already established that this estimate is way out. WC have already been given around $4.7mil to cover management costs.

3. Re-financed Loan - the loan of $9.5mil is a completely new loan provided by a "non-bank" lender (as stated in the Annual Report).

There is nothing written in the Fund's Constitution that legally obliges WC to accept anything less than book value of 'Gross Value of Assets under Management' when determining their fee. They have to take into account unit holding as at the end of the previous month, and the gross value as per the last audited set of accounts.

There is also nothing that legally stops them from commencing payment of their fees whenever they like.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty & Co., please re-read Dora's post again and see if you can get the drift. Seamisty you posted the facts regarding the purchase price WC contracted to pay for the PIF. Read it carefully.

IT IS 4 X NET PROFIT OF OCTAVIAR INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED (NOW KNOWN AS WELLINGTON INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT LIMITED) FOR THE 1ST YEAR + NET TANGIBLE ASSET VALUE OF OIM (NOW WIM) AS AT 12MONTHS AFTER AQUISITION.

THE FUND'S PROFITS (LOSSES) HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT !!!

To repeat your own quote in your post 3626 when referring to someone elses comments - "IT'S HARDLY ROCKET SCIENCE".

If WIM were still the RE and they were to receive management fees before May 2009 (representing their net profit as all costs are paid by the Fund), then purchase price would be 4 x that amount.

WIM are no longer RE !! WIM will have no net profit !!!

Please also re-read Dora's post regarding the significance of this to PIF. If WC had to pay a purchase price (based on WIM's net profit) to OCV, then as the PIF is a creditor of OCV, it would mean more recovery of what we are owed.

Can you see a conflict of interest here (it's not rocket science).

No its not rocket science, WELLINGTON CAPITAL IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPOSIBLE FOR THE PURCHASE OF THE PIF NOT WIM!!!!!!:::::RESS RELEASE
Acquisition Of Octaviar Investment
Management Limited
9 May 2008
Acquisition of Octaviar Investment Management Limited
Wellington Capital today announced that it had entered into a Call Option Deed with a wholly owned
subsidiary of Octaviar Limited which grants Wellington Capital an option to purchase the shares held by the
Octaviar Limited subsidiary in Octaviar Investment Management Limited, the responsible entity of:
Octaviar Premium Income Fund ARSN 090 687 577
Octaviar Wholesale Premium Income Fund ARSN 107 973 071
Octaviar Cash Enhanced Fund ARSN 118 285 760
Octaviar Maximum Yield Fund ARSN 109 106 658
Octaviar Dynamic Growth Equity Fund ARSN 121 883 020.
On 2 May 2008, the existing directors of Octaviar Investment Management resigned and a new board was
appointed, comprising:
Jenny Hutson;
Robert Pitt; and
Craig Wallace.
Following execution of the Call Option Deed, Wellington Capital will be paid a management fee in relation
to Wellington Capital’s management of Octaviar Investment Management and its underlying funds. The call
option is exercisable by Wellington Capital at any time up to and including 31 August 2008.
In the event the Call Option is exercised, the purchase price payable by Wellington Capital for the
acquisition of Octaviar Investment Management will be equal to:
a multiple of four times the actual profit of Octaviar Investment Management for the 12 months
period following the acquisition; plus
the value of the net tangible assets of Octaviar Investment Management at the end of that 12 month
period.
‘The current staff of Octaviar Investment Management will work with the funds management team at
Wellington Capital to ensure an orderly transition and to ensure that Octaviar Investment Management
continues to be committed to working in the best interests of Unitholders during this difficult time to ensure
that, given current market conditions and the position of the funds, the best possible outcome is achieved for
Unitholders’, said Jenny Hutson, Managing Director of Wellington Capital.::::::: Lets put this one to rest, if you have any further enquiries please call the WC hotline. Seamisty

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

.Quote Burnt; Re-financed Loan - the loan of $9.5mil is a completely new loan provided by a "non-bank" lender (as stated in the Annual Report). End Quote ::::age 26 annual report: Since the end of the financial year, the bank debt, which had been incurred by the previous directors and which carried with it the threat of liquidation, has been repaid. Accordingly the threat of receivership from this source has been extinguished. To enable the repayment of the bank debt, the fund has entered into a new finance facility with a non-bank financial institution.:::: I read that as the remainder of the existing loan was refinanced. Seamisty

 

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty,

When posting information for the benefit of others, please try to ensure that you give complete and accurate information.

1. Management Fees - management fee of up to 0.7% p.a. inc.GST of the Gross Value of the Assets under Management. JH has stated that this value would be based on 45c/unit.

2. Other Management Costs - estimated at 0.32% or $1.32mil. We have already established that this estimate is way out. WC have already been given around $4.7mil to cover management costs.

3. Re-financed Loan - the loan of $9.5mil is a completely new loan provided by a "non-bank" lender (as stated in the Annual Report).

There is nothing written in the Fund's Constitution that legally obliges WC to accept anything less than book value of 'Gross Value of Assets under Management' when determining their fee. They have to take into account unit holding as at the end of the previous month, and the gross value as per the last audited set of accounts.

There is also nothing that legally stops them from commencing payment of their fees whenever they like.

Hang on a minute Burnt, if you are talking about accuracy!

Page 63 of the Memorandum clearly states in Note #1 "No management fee will be charged until after 3 cents in cash has been paid to Unitholders."

 

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty,

When posting information for the benefit of others, please try to ensure that you give complete and accurate information.

1. Management Fees - management fee of up to 0.7% p.a. inc.GST of the Gross Value of the Assets under Management. JH has stated that this value would be based on 45c/unit.
2. Other Management Costs - estimated at 0.32% or $1.32mil. We have already established that this estimate is way out. WC have already been given around $4.7mil to cover management costs.

3. Re-financed Loan - the loan of $9.5mil is a completely new loan provided by a "non-bank" lender (as stated in the Annual Report).

There is nothing written in the Fund's Constitution that legally obliges WC to accept anything less than book value of 'Gross Value of Assets under Management' when determining their fee. They have to take into account unit holding as at the end of the previous month, and the gross value as per the last audited set of accounts.

There is also nothing that legally stops them from commencing payment of their fees whenever they like.

.. and again on the same page "How and when (the Management Fee) is paid."
"Calculated monthly with reference to the value of the Funds under management at the end of the prior month and payable monthly in advance out of Fund assets."
(My highlighting!)

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

So you believe their is a possibility that WC have devalued the assets substantially ???

I don't know about substantial. I'm not intimate with the 30 odd loan book but would guess that some would have been finalised and went to pay off the debt. Any debt prior to being paid off would have been accumulating interest. So at the least, while the debt was paid off, the fund value would have gone down by the amount of interest accumulated. Unless it's made up somewhere else. Or am I wrong? Does the fund value go up with the amount of interest we are 'earning' on the loans (whether we ever get the cash or not). I.e. the fund value is based on the account balance of the loans rather than full term value of the contracts. It'll be interesting to see if there are any write downs of any of the loans or if they will be kept on the books for years, even if they have a snow flake's chance of delivering full contract value, until all legal avenues have been pursued.

If there are further write downs it seems savvy to book them now so you can cite the economic turmoil as the reason. I'm sure it's very interesting times for accountants.

Also, legal fees come out of our PIF and any distribution would reduce the value of the fund.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Quote Burnt:::. We have already established that this estimate is way out. WC have already been given around $4.7mil to cover management costs. End Quote::: Please refer page 2 question and answer booklet::WC was paid a one of fee of $750,000 and an amount of $3 million was put aside to cover certain fund costs for the four months to AUG31 2008, that equals $3.75 mill to be accurate. Seamisty

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

No its not rocket science, WELLINGTON CAPITAL IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN RESPOSIBLE FOR THE PURCHASE OF THE PIF NOT WIM!!!!!!::::::...
Lets put this one to rest, if you have any further enquiries please call the WC hotline. Seamisty

Everyone agrees WC are responsible for the purchase price of the PIF. What are you saying needs clarification from WC? The following two statements are why we are referring to WIM...

"a multiple of four times the actual profit of Octaviar Investment Management for the 12 months period following the acquisition; plus
the value of the net tangible assets of Octaviar Investment Management at the end of that 12 month period."

 

[sume]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

so as well as the pif and the wholesale pif wc also is the re for cash enhanced fund, maximum yield fund, dynamic growth equity fund how much are these funds contributing to the wc coffers and are they subject to the same requirements as pif[i.e. dividens paid before fees collected] if not is the pif paying for their costs as well? also jh claimed that wc had one billion dollars under management where did that money come from and is the pif being charged for that adminstration as well?

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Quote Burnt::If WIM were still the RE and they were to receive management fees before May 2009 (representing their net profit as all costs are paid by the Fund), then purchase price would be 4 x that amount.

WIM are no longer RE !! WIM will have no net profit !!! end quote::: What is the significance of this debate, if there is a profit WC will pay OCV four times that amount, and the value of NTA of assets of the PIF at the end of the 12 month period , regardless of who the RE is. End of story. Seamisty

 

[danger danger]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WHO CARES what WC may or may not pay OCV!!! Personally I couldn't give a toss as long as WC adds value to the fund and gets my money back while getting regular payments along the way..the rest is just meaningless crap really.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

so as well as the pif and the wholesale pif wc also is the re for cash enhanced fund, maximum yield fund, dynamic growth equity fund how much are these funds contributing to the wc coffers and are they subject to the same requirements as pif[i.e. dividens paid before fees collected] if not is the pif paying for their costs as well? also jh claimed that wc had one billion dollars under management where did that money come from and is the pif being charged for that adminstration as well?

Look at http://www.wellcap.com.au/fundsman.html, WC has other interests apart from the PIF which are unrelated but included in the one billion under management. Seamisty

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WHO CARES what WC may or may not pay OCV!!! Personally I couldn't give a toss as long as WC adds value to the fund and gets my money back while getting regular payments along the way..the rest is just meaningless crap really.

20 cents in the dollar of our orginal investment that WC should be trying to get back is coming from OCV. It's WC's job to be hounding the admin of OCV to ensure OCV gets all money owed to it which would max our return. Is this not obvious?

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

so as well as the pif and the wholesale pif wc also is the re for cash enhanced fund, maximum yield fund, dynamic growth equity fund how much are these funds contributing to the wc coffers and are they subject to the same requirements as pif[i.e. dividens paid before fees collected] if not is the pif paying for their costs as well? also jh claimed that wc had one billion dollars under management where did that money come from and is the pif being charged for that adminstration as well?

The explanatory memorandum states WCs intention for the other funds that WIM manages\managed. WC have stated that the max yield fund's value is $0.
"It is the intention of WIM to retire as RE of this fund and another two funds and to cease to be a licensed RE once all relevant steps have been taken to appoint WC as RE to three of the current funds and the winding up of the other two has been finalised"

I don't believe WCs other funds were worth one billion when that statement was written (nor would it be true now even if you include the PIF)

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

What is the significance of this debate, if there is a profit WC will pay OCV four times that amount, and the value of NTA of assets of the PIF at the end of the 12 month period , regardless of who the RE is. End of story. Seamisty

OMG!!
A profit of what Seamisty? A profit of WIM!

No, they won't pay NTA of assets of the PIF. They will pay NTA of assets of WIM!

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

OMG!!
A profit of what Seamisty? A profit of WIM!

No, they won't pay NTA of assets of the PIF. They will pay NTA of assets of WIM!

My correction, not PIF, WIM.Seamisty

 

[sume]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

20 cents in the dollar of our orginal investment that WC should be trying to get back is coming from OCV. It's WC's job to be hounding the admin of OCV to ensure OCV gets all money owed to it which would max our return. Is this not obvious?

so what is happehing with that claim in the supreme court lodged by wc ,that was months ago when is it going to be heard. or was it lodged just so nothing could be said because it is before the court