wayneL
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....and, though legitimate topics of discussion here (and hope for later in the thread), can we get back to what folks think Zionism means for now?
wayneL
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In my mind Zionism is the female name for Israel and is the desire to base a Jewish state based in Jerusalem where they were removed many centuries ago.
From that time:
A May 1917 letter from Jules Cambon, a French diplomat, to Nahum Sokolow, a Polish Zionist, expressed the sympathetic views of the French government towards “Jewish colonisation in Palestine”.
“t would be a deed of justice and of reparation to assist, by the protection of the Allied Powers, in the renaissance of the Jewish nationality in that Land from which the people of Israel were exiled so many centuries ago,” stated the letter, which was seen as a precursor to the Balfour Declaration.
What impact did it have on Palestinians?
The Balfour Declaration is widely seen as the precursor to the 1948 Palestinian Nakba when Zionist armed groups, who were trained by the British, forcibly expelled more than 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland.
Despite some opposition within the War Cabinet predicting that such an outcome was probable, the British government still chose to issue the declaration.
While it is difficult to imply that the developments in Palestine today can be traced back to the Balfour Declaration, there is no doubt that the British Mandate created the conditions for the Jewish minority to gain superiority in Palestine and build a state for themselves at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs.
When the British decided to terminate their mandate in 1947 and transfer the question of Palestine to the United Nations, the Jews already had an army that was formed out of the armed paramilitary groups trained and created to fight side by side with the British in World War II.
More importantly, the British allowed the Jews to establish self-governing institutions, such as the Jewish Agency, to prepare themselves for a state when it came to it, while the Palestinians were forbidden from doing so – paving the way for the 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
More than a century on: The Balfour Declaration explained
More than 100 years since Britain’s controversial pledge, here is everything you need to know about it.www.aljazeera.com
"Aljazeera.com"
I submit there may be some bias in that article.
There are Jewish based articles on the same, undoubtedly also biased.
The truth????
Knobby22
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Which is?
wayneL
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UMike
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Can I google it first before I define?
Knobby22
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It is clear that there are no innocents, no guys wearing white hats.
You can see at the time how backward the inhabitants of the region were and how they could not compete with the European trained Jews who came there. And I am sure the future Israelis had to show their strength and when the partition happened and needed to force out the inhabitants so they could live there. I am sure the inhabitants sometimes resisted.
From what I have read, they used to live together peaceably however the enmity has only grown over the years and is now off the scale.
It didn't used to be that bad. from Wikipedia.
In 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group in Jerusalem.
Between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 Jews moved to Palestine, known as the First Aliyah.[191] In the Russian Empire, Jews faced growing persecution and legal restrictions. Half the world's Jews lived in the Russian Empire, where they were restricted to living in the Pale of Settlement. Severe pogroms in the early 1880s and legal repression led to 2 million Jews emigrating from the Russian Empire. 1.5 million went to the United States.
Then Zionism.
In 1896 Theodor Herzl published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State), in which he asserted that the solution to growing antisemitism in Europe (the so-called "Jewish Question") was to establish a Jewish state. In 1897, the World Zionist Organization was founded and the First Zionist Congress proclaimed its aim "to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law."[195] The Congress chose Hatikvah ("The Hope") as its anthem.
Between 1904 and 1914, around 40,000 Jews settled in the area now known as Israel (the Second Aliyah). In 1908 the World Zionist Organization set up the Palestine Bureau (also known as the "Eretz Israel Office") in Jaffa and began to adopt a systematic Jewish settlement policy.[196] In 1909 residents of Jaffa bought land outside the city walls and built the first entirely Hebrew-speaking town, Ahuzat Bayit (later renamed Tel Aviv).[197]
Between 1929 and 1938, 250,000 Jews arrived in Palestine (Fifth Aliyah).
Jewish immigration and Nazi propaganda contributed to the large-scale 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, a largely nationalist uprising directed at ending British rule.
And then the rest you know - creating Israel etc. and the local Arab population became 2nd class citizens.
I personally can't see a solution. What is going to happen to the Gaza strip where many now live? What is the way forward?
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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In 1938, Ben Gurion described the conflict with the Arabs as "in its essence a political one... politically we are the aggressors and they [the Arabs] defend themselves." Israeli historian Benny Morris, widely regarded as an authority on the Arab-Israeli conflict and the leading authority on origins of the Palestinian refugee problem, affirms Ben Gurion's description, saying: "Ben-Gurion, of course, was right" and goes on to describe Zionism as "a colonizing and expansionist ideology and movement" whose "ideology and practice were necessarily and elementally expansionist." Morris describes the Zionist goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine as necessarily displacing and dispossessing the Arab population. The practical issue of establishing a Jewish state in a majority non-Jewish and Arab region was a fundamental issue for the Zionist movement. Revisionist Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky described the notion of "transfer" (the Zionist euphemism for ethnic cleansing of the Arab Palestinian population) as a "brutal expulsion" which could resolve this challenge.The idea of transfer was not unique to Revisionist Zionism, in fact, as explained by Morris, "the idea of transferring the Arabs out... was seen as the chief means of assuring the stability of the 'Jewishness' of the proposed Jewish State".
According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population.
According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population.
There's a lot of history that people are oblivious of that spans a huge range of subjects. There is also a huge amount of disinformation that can obscure the subject.
All I want to say is deep dive, but cross-reference for truth.
All I want to say is deep dive, but cross-reference for truth.
wayneL
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Israeli Arabs have citizenship rights by law, there are Arabs in the parliament, judiciary, police, and IDF, so clearly not 2nd class citizens.
But I agree there doesn't seem to be a solution to the Hamas problem, certainly not an easy one.
Fact: Israel is there to stay. Any solution must revolve around that reality and the existence of Hamas et al is a serious impediment to that.
Get rid of those terrorist groups and folks can work on everything else.... then there might be some chance.
You want to stick with that reply wayne???
This topic is a little too important for cheap shots ( but you've left yourself open to'm)
So to Mox's point. It's the history.
Chaim Weizmann?( know who was now wayne?) you cannot not include. .............'The Balfour Declaration ' . Drafted in the late stages of WW1 as the Otterman Empire disintergates. ... Sykes -Picot and the side lining of the 'The King Crane Commission' ....... there's weeks of reading to get an understanding of the background of those.
There are though hard numbers and hard facts...
Refugee numbers of 1948.
Dollar figures of financial aid by the US to Israel since 48.
The deaths on head Areil Sharon's at Sabra and Shatila.... but how many orfans?
Less hard. The soft power of Hollywood and 'man' can they manipulate a narrative.
In absence of any other solution...
The 'river to the sea' hardline Jews want to see the Palisintians move into what is now 'West Gasa' .... Well; get the world behind building the Biggest canal estate and marina. That would give Hamas something with the infill rubble from their tunnels.
So, every body happy? You can bet your life they ain't .
yeah good, you run with that.Word salad. Nobody knows wtf you're on about.
Btw, I never knew the Middle East was formerly ruled by semi-aquatic mammals
Others here might take time to look at the history.
Agree with Orr and he is only lightly touching on a subject that goes extremely deep. It's mind boggling how every facet of our lives, history, future have been/will be influenced by it. I would sound like an absolute conspiracy nut if it wasn't backed by proof.
I'm not getting crucified for it though dyor.
Long live Israel and all that.
I'm not getting crucified for it though dyor.
Long live Israel and all that.
wayneL
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More historical tidbits
wayneL
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For anyone having anything to say about Zionism and the Palestinian conflict I found this video extraordinarily educational and I would strongly advise having a listen if you have a couple of hours
wayneL
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FYI
Dona Ferentes
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L'Shana Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim (Hebrew: לְשָׁנָה הַבָּאָה בִּירוּשָלָיִם), lit. "to a year to come in Jerusalem" but most often rendered "Next year in Jerusalem", is a phrase that is often sung at the end of the Passover Seder and at the end of the Ne'ila service on Yom Kippur. Its use during Passover was first recorded by Isaac Tyrnau in his 15th century CE book cataloging the Minhaggim of various Ashkenazi communities.
L'Shana Haba'ah evokes a common theme in Jewish culture of a desire to return to a rebuilt Jerusalem, and commentators have suggested that it serves as a reminder of the experience of living in exile.
L'Shana Haba'ah evokes a common theme in Jewish culture of a desire to return to a rebuilt Jerusalem, and commentators have suggested that it serves as a reminder of the experience of living in exile.
wayneL
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Just a little off topic, but couldn't think of a another thread... And anti-semites might want to look away
Anyhooz, I have a good friend going to Israel on the weekend. She is resolutely Jewish and not a believer in Yeshua, me resolutely Christian... Yet we have had over a few years now some absolutely wonderful and respectful conversations about this topic.
She is going to the Western Wall in Jerusalem and (something I didn't know) the tradition is to leave a written message in the cracks in the wall and has offered to take a message from me to stuff in the cracks.
I just thought it was pretty cool and a bit of a fantastic thing to have my thoughts, however insignificant, in such an important landmark.
FWIW
Anyhooz, I have a good friend going to Israel on the weekend. She is resolutely Jewish and not a believer in Yeshua, me resolutely Christian... Yet we have had over a few years now some absolutely wonderful and respectful conversations about this topic.
She is going to the Western Wall in Jerusalem and (something I didn't know) the tradition is to leave a written message in the cracks in the wall and has offered to take a message from me to stuff in the cracks.
I just thought it was pretty cool and a bit of a fantastic thing to have my thoughts, however insignificant, in such an important landmark.
FWIW
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So what are you going to say?
