Aboriginal?

Bobby · 9 June 2007

Spaghetti said:
Booby

Those questions are for us to answer, not for them.

Hi Spaghetti,

I'm open for non Aboriginals to answer..
----------------------------------------
Julia : Nice responce to Robs post.

Rob : Whats the REALITY of your thinking please ?

Bob.

2020hindsight · 9 June 2007

PS and I kinda frown on blatant deaths in custody stuff
(PS what's YOUR opinion there J?)

Julia
I realise you dont like reading long posts,
so
I just repeat this one question (as I just asked Chops - except he had the excuse of being a West Australian where you can't use that one)

What's your opinion of Palm Island. ?

PS Sitting on the fence will be frowned upon :2twocents

(PS I'd ask Bobby that as well - except that would be a complete waste of time - he seems to be rivetted to that fence)

rederob · 9 June 2007

Julia said:
OK,I suppose I had thought that all of the suggestions and ideas so articulately expressed by Noel Pearson would have constituted at least some measure of this indigenous participation. Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?

Julia
Pearson is a champion of what is possible, yet his views and aspirations gather minimal traction with governments.
Pearson continues to "fight" for his people and his efforts can be found at:
http://www.cyi.org.au/
If you read through any of Pearson's stuff you will quickly discover that white fellas have created an "indigenous industry".
That industry is very powerful, and desires to be self perpetuating: Which cannot be achieved if aborigines do actually improve their lot in life as we would want!
In relation to your question "Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?", the fact is that many have, and continue to do so.
However, if you want "air time" your views need to be newsworthy, or radical. So we usually only get to hear the more radical views of indigenous representatives - and we don't like them, do we!

rederob · 10 June 2007

Wayne, thanks for the editing fix

Before signing off for the night, if anyone takes the time to look at shared responsibility agreements that have been entered into, you might be afflicted with "why haven't they done that already-itis".
One of the first SRAs involved putting a petrol bowser within the local township (as the next nearest was 90kms away), in return for aborigines adopting hygiene measures.
After the hoopla of the announcement, and allround acclaim of what a great "mutual agreement" was reached the truth came out.
The local hygiene measures were already in place, but after years of haranguing the authorities, a clever Mr Sewell (from memory) decided that there was money in SRAs that could be tapped into and achieve something that had to date gone begging.
So the township got its bowser and the government got its good publicity.
SRAs beg the question of why such good or sensible ideas don't get acted on much earlier.
Maybe it's like climate change: It's only an issue or important when the government says so.

Bobby · 10 June 2007

Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking etc in S.A. ?

Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?

And as for you 2020 H.S, Your posts are ignored & unread by many.

Bob.

BIG BWACULL · 10 June 2007

Bobby said:
Hullo All,

I thought I was a white bloke untill I met some people who look like me, but said they were aboriginals.

Whats an ABORIGINAL these days ?

Bob.

Its Sad to see bob that you cant except your aboriginal culture you should have opened your arms to your long lost relatives

heh heh Is it cause 20 doesnt write what you want to hear that you ignore the posts aahh well good luck with ya fish and chip shop.

BIG BWACULL · 10 June 2007

Bobby said:
Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking etc in S.A. ?

Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?

And as for you 2020 H.S, Your posts are ignored & unread by many.

Bob.

Were these guys aboriginal

Mother and children in gunpoint car-jacking
A mother and two teenagers are recovering after they were car-jacked at gunpoint in Melbourne's south-east overnight.

The three - a disabled woman, her 15-year-old daughter and the girl's 17-year-old boyfriend - were attacked in the car park of a McDonald's restaurant in the suburb of Doveton.

They were confronted by two armed men wearing hoods over their heads, who allegedly dragged them out of the car and assaulted them, at about midnight.

"He hit my daughter in the chest," said the 54-year-old victim, from Dandenong. "I grabbed him from behind, my daughter kept screaming."

"It was a cowardly and brazen attack on innocent people minding their own business," said Senior Detective Jason Hamilton-Smith.

"They are devastated. Luckily they were not physically injured, but the emotional trauma is horrendous."

The woman's seriously damaged Holden Calais car was found at Tooronga railway station, 20km from the scene of the attack, hours later.

A 33-year-old Dandenong North man and a 34-year-old man from Berwick were arrested nearby and questioned by police.

They have been charged with aggravated burglary, armed robbery, firearms offences and other related charges.

BIG BWACULL · 10 June 2007

Maybe these guys were aboriginal

Saturday June 2, 11:36 AM
Four men injured in nightclub shooting
Two men are in a critical condition in hospital after a shooting outside an Adelaide nightclub.

Four men were wounded in the shooting attack outside the Tonic nightclub in Light Square in Adelaide's CBD just after 4.30am (CST), police said.

Police are investigating whether members of a motorcycle gang may have been involved.

The four men with gunshot wounds were taken to the Royal Adelaide Hospital. A hospital spokeswoman said two of them were in a critical condition.

South Australian police spokesman Senior Constable Tim Dodds said earlier that three of the men were "okay" but one was believed to be in a serious condition.

The ages of the men were unknown.

"It certainly happened out the front of the nightclub for whatever reason. They're investigating that now," Sen Const Dodds said.

rederob · 10 June 2007

Bobby said:
Anyone notice the news about aboriginal gangs bashing & robbing people plus car jacking etc in S.A. ?

Gee it could be the result of us not understanding there needs hey Rob ?

Bob.

Hey Bobby
I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.
What the heck, as BIG BWA points out, why should white fellas have all the fun

Julia · 10 June 2007

rederob said:
Julia
Pearson is a champion of what is possible, yet his views and aspirations gather minimal traction with governments.
Pearson continues to "fight" for his people and his efforts can be found at:
http://www.cyi.org.au/
If you read through any of Pearson's stuff you will quickly discover that white fellas have created an "indigenous industry".
That industry is very powerful, and desires to be self perpetuating: Which cannot be achieved if aborigines do actually improve their lot in life as we would want!
In relation to your question "Why are not more of them speaking up and telling us what their population needs to overcome their difficulties?", the fact is that many have, and continue to do so.
However, if you want "air time" your views need to be newsworthy, or radical. So we usually only get to hear the more radical views of indigenous representatives - and we don't like them, do we!

Thank you, Rob, for that link to the Cape York Institute website which makes for encouraging reading. And yes, this is the sort of thoughtful and practical comment which I've heard from Noel Pearson before and been so impressed with.
So, do you feel the fault lies with e.g. Mal Brough for not offering Mr Pearson the sort of support he needs?
Your point about news media is well made and I agree. The ABC does reasonably well but when the commercial media seems to regard the Paris Hilton farce as worthy of news time every day for the past several, it's pretty hard to be positive about their values and priorities.

2020hindsight · 10 June 2007

You're right Rob / Julia,
Noel Pearson is spot on - and I personally really enjoy to listen to optimistic people in these circumstances - you've gotta pray/ fervently hope that he has the energy to keep it up until others of equal or higher talent can take over.

And obviously he has to spend most of his energies in CapeYork - and what about the Pilbara, or the Manjumups and the Dragemup's etc scattered about the west and centre - not to mention NSW and the rest of Qld - and the Redferns and ...?
(no one formula you'd guess)

Here's an extract from one of his speeches ...
http://www.cyi.org.au/speeches.aspx
http://www.cyi.org.au/WEBSITE uploa...sury_Passive Welfare and service delivery.doc
ADDRESS TO THE TREASURY ON THE CAPE YORK PENINSULA REFORM AGENDA
25 September 2006, Noel Pearson, Director, Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership

and Chops,

he even addresses your question of poor attendance at schools - linking family payments to whether or not the kids attended school (not sure what happens if the kids have left home ? :2twocents

).

Introduction
Today I will talk about welfare, passivity and responsibility, and what needs to be done to ensure that welfare and passivity do not undermine responsibility.

Since I started my campaign in 1999, the term ‘passive welfare’ has come into common usage. But passive welfare is viewed exclusively in terms of income support.

I agree that income support constitutes an important facet of passive welfare. But this is only part of the problem. Also contributing to collapsed responsibility is passive service delivery, and the assumption by both service deliverers and recipients that such assistance is a natural entitlement. Shifting the passive welfare paradigm is thus more complex than simply reforming payments; it requires that we examine the role of passive service delivery, and be willing to struggle against the entrenched power relations which are inherent to it.

.... What makes a good society, and how is it possible to achieve this?

What makes a good society?
A good society allows and enables people to lead fulfilling, productive lives, but it also influences and guides the formative years of the young in society to desire and work towards a good future.

...Liberal democracies are also committed to a social investment in “capabilities” – good health and education being key underpinnings of capabilities. Capabilities are our range of choices, created by the personal and social resources that each individual has and may utilise to improve their lives. People are truly free when they have the capabilities to choose.

The perpetual debate in democratic countries is about the correct scope of government social investment. Excessive government support for capabilities may weaken choice, ...
Young people in Cape York Peninsula are unfree in the sense that they are almost certain to lead unfulfilling lives. .
.... we are strongly convinced about the need for a third aspect of a good society: the importance of social norms. The liberal and social democrat theories, that choice and social investment are necessary, apply to adults; without social norms acquired in childhood, a person will not choose to lead a productive life, and will not benefit from the governments’ investment in him or her.

.....The three components of the agenda are therefore:
1. restoring social order through functional social and cultural norms
2. investment in building capabilities
3. getting incentives right
Taken together, these three components form a metaphorical stair case.

First: a strong foundation of social and cultural norms
The foundation for the stairs of social uplift must be the re-establishment of rules that society expects its members to follow.

Mainstream Australia has social order. This has a visible component, for example, law enforcement. But it also has an invisible component – social norms that influence individual behaviour. An example of this may be found in the attitude of mainstream Australia to school attendance. The visible component is made up of nation-wide truancy laws and disciplinary tactics implemented by schools. The invisible component may be witnessed in the social norm that assumes children should attend school, and the inherent value placed in education.

Together, social norms and values ensure that in mainstream Australia, bad behaviour – such as truancy – has consequences. In contrast, Cape York is operating at a social order deficit, largely due to a breakdown of social norms.

But what is needed to build and sustain positive social norms? I would argue that there is a need to develop ongoing connections between Commonwealth-funded income support, State-based service delivery, and Indigenous people able and willing to take on emerging leadership roles. Establishing such connections would mean vesting power in Indigenous communities and individuals, thus embedding social responsibilities in both high-level and local Indigenous decision-making processes.

Current work along these lines is already being developed in the idea of a Families Commission, an impartial local body with authority vested by both State and Commonwealth governments. With the support of government, a Families Commission would address underlying family dysfunctions which place children at risk – both by recommending that individuals and families take up programs such as income management, parenting education, counselling and rehabilitation, and where such individuals and families fail to take up their responsibilities, by imposing sanctions and ordering participation in support programs. For example, the Commission would be able to place pressure on parents to ensure their children were attending school, by linking school attendance to families payments and income support.

disarray · 10 June 2007

2020hindsight said:
I've written a poem or two about how important I think it is that we say sorry. (incidentally like 79% of Aussies allegedly also say)

Although I'm seriously wondering how is is that so many ASF members belong to the other 29% on that one !!

getting the figure of 79% of some newspaper poll is hardly an accurate figure. stop spouting on like you have some wider moral imperative to make us think we are all at fault.

and to be honest i'm surprised at the amount of leftist guilt around here. i thought a stock board would be mostly inhabited with capitalist rationalists, instead i find a lot of emotional crusaders. as long as we are all making money hey?

2020hindsight said:
Sorry Julia, I enjoy the freedom of exercising my imagination to tackle a problem
Sorry if I dont play the game of putting up ideas so that you and/or any other self styled critics can shoot em down

while simultaneously you say you don’t know the answer yourselves !!!

no lots of us have many ideas, but people like you will jump up and down in moral indignation when we put them forward because they aren't "soft and caring and understanding". i think they need a good kick in the ass and be told directly what to do. i'm all for the carrot and the stick as a way of managing the behaviour of people. behave and get rewarded, misbehave and get stomped. it works for most of the rest of society.

2020hindsight said:
Sorry again , but I have a problem with "critics" - and for instance when the judges on "Idol" run their acid commentaries, I feel like mankind is a seriously sick animal

thats the problem. people object to criticism and so nothing will ever get done.

BIG BWACULL said:
Its Sad to see bob that you cant except your aboriginal culture you should have opened your arms to your long lost relatives heh heh Is it cause 20 doesnt write what you want to hear that you ignore the posts aahh well good luck with ya fish and chip shop.

and again we see the "you're a racist" comments flying in from the leftys. don't agree with us? you must be a racist like pauline hanson!

rederob said:
I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.
What the heck, as BIG BWA points out, why should white fellas have all the fun

yet another stupid post ridiculing the fact that aborigines are MASSIVELY overrepresented as the perpetrators of crime and residents in our jails. but no, lets not look at that, we need to focus on how to not hurt their feelings!

i would go further and pull apart 2020hindsights ramblings but i don't particularly feel like wading through the walls of text and bad poetry the guy is churning out. he's on a moral crusade and will swamp anyone who disagrees with him with essay after ripped off article after poem so there's not really not much point talking to him.

simple questions -

why have all other migrants to australia, many with similar disadvantages, been more successful than aborigines?

why are aborigines 50 times more likely to be criminals than white people? not a little bit more likely, but by a huge margin.

why can't aborigines adapt to a western lifestyle despite massive government assistance when waves of immigrants from different cultures spanning the globe can make a success of their communities with much less government help?

instead of constantly looking at what the evil whitefella is always doing wrong, how about we talk about what the aboriginals are doing wrong. instead of asking "what more must we do?" we should be asking "what should they START doing".

rederob · 10 June 2007

disarray
Because you don't understand what being a "racist" means, does not mean you are not one.
Of course this forum is too politically correct to allow me to call you a racist. So I will not.
You are, however, as ill informed as the many that think they know what is wrong, and what aborigines need to do to lift themselves from where they are.
Do you think that if the majority of aborigines had the power to do something more positive they would not do it?
Stuck in the middle of nowhere, no running water, no electricity, etc, etc, and you want them to be "westernised", too!
Anyone reading your post would think that aboriginals are the worst of the worst. Far from it, although with a bit of grog, or too much, then we have a problem.
We don't have "evil whitefellas" either.
We have dumb whitefellas.
Whitefellas that think if something works on Thursday Island, it will work on Tiwi Island.
Or if it works in Redfern, it can work at Bourke.
After 200 years we still label them all "indigenous" and try a one size fits all approach if the carrot and stick method doesn't work.

Julia wonders if Mal Brough is to blame.
No.
Howard is.
He thinks that "mainstreaming" is the solution, yet has no idea how this can be achieved. Or if he does, then after 11 years in power, there is very little to show.

Why isn't Noel Pearson more influential?
He has first hand experience, fantastic ideas, and wants to be part of the solution.
He is one of dozens that are trying to make a difference, and very few ever do. I don't know if the Quandamooka Land Council Aboriginal Corporation just got lucky, or they landed a few bureaucrats that had a clue. But they are a prime example of what can be achieved.

Julia · 10 June 2007

2020hindsight said:
Julia
I realise you dont like reading long posts,
so
I just repeat this one question (as I just asked Chops - except he had the excuse of being a West Australian where you can't use that one)

What's your opinion of Palm Island. ?

PS Sitting on the fence will be frowned upon

(PS I'd ask Bobby that as well - except that would be a complete waste of time - he seems to be rivetted to that fence)

I'm not sure how living in South East Qld qualifies me to have an informed opinion on Palm Island. I have never been there. Any comments I'd make would be derived from what I have heard/seen/read and thus will be coloured by the quality of the media involved.

However, I doubt that any Australian would be unaware of the dysfunction which seems to characterise Palm Island. I'm frankly reluctant to make any comment because I simply don't know enough about all of the causes.
I'd imagine alcohol is a prime problem and the precursor to much of the violence and sexual assault. The little I know of the history of the island, i.e. it being used as a repository for "disruptive" people can hardly have been conducive to the formation of a functional society.

The minimal level of involvement in the education system obviously will exacerbate the sense of hopelessness which seems to be experienced by most of the people.

The observation has been made on this thread that "people will live up to their reputation". I so agree with this. Most people will behave pretty much as we expect them to. So if we continue to suggest to Aboriginal people on Palm Island or anywhere else, that they are not responsible for making progressive decisions, and reinforcing to them that because of abuses they have undoubtedly endured in the past we will never expect them to play a part in creating truly functional communities, then that is probably just what will happen.

But if what they hear is the expressed belief that they are worth more than the acceptance of a miserable, drunken, violent existence, if they themselves make the decisions to participate in properly funded ventures such as aquaculture which I understand would be well suited to the Palm Island area, then they have every chance of eventually turning the situation around, with the help and support of the rest of us.

It's the same with any of us, isn't it. If I am told repeatedly that I'm a failure, have never and will never make any useful contribution to my community etc., then I am probably going to believe that and simply withdraw. But if I receive positive reinforcement of any efforts I have made, and the continued assurance that I am of value, then I will redouble my efforts with pride.

There are aboriginal people who have achieved a good deal in their personal lives and for their communities. It's not impossible.

2020hindsight · 11 June 2007

Here's a link to a poem called ... da ..da
THE FREEDOM BUS / BIKE / ROLLER SKATES

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167936&highlight=convoy#post167936

By the way Julia , you misunderstood, I was referring to
a) the upcoming trial re the manslaughter of Mulrunji Doomadgee , and
b) as I understand it (wish I could get more facts) a mother of young kids received 18 months in jail for throwing stones at the police station after the incident. ( I did hear , I THINK, that someone else , since then, recently, was let off after being charged throwing or setting fire to the station or something - because of insufficient evidence or some such) .

http://www.news.com.au/sundaymail/story/0,,20487785-5007200,00.html
http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=50039

After two years of investigation into what killed 36-year-old Palm Island man Mulrunji, Acting State Coroner Christine Clements yesterday found the island's top police officer Snr Sgt Christopher Hurley ..(has case to answer).

I'll let people read it as they see fit.

chops_a_must · 11 June 2007

2020hindsight said:
and the second step is for you to go to school and read about Palm Island
(I try to keep up with WA current affairs after all
and this is a Qld thing, and I live in NSW - as if any of that is important)

1. Coroner rules a man Mulrunji Doomadgee dies in custody due to a kick to the back which split his liver / spleen whatever -
2. prosecutor doesnt press charges on the policeman/(men) involved,
3. Qld Govt try to give it the whitewash treatment -
4. but after MASSIVE presssure are forced to ask Judge , Sir Lawrence Street, to do a report - he agrees there is a case to answer for
5. finally policeman (Hurley) is on charges of manslaughter).
6. It comes to court in a month or two
7. Watch this space ( and be edumacated on the subject of black justice under the mighty white legal system )

You wouldn't understand , because in WA, it never gets past step ? 2? 3 maybe?

And you blokes keep quoting to me that the percentage of blacks in custody is high!!!

Well, you can read the deaths in custody royal commission like I have.

Secondly, police brutality and violence is old as the police force is itself. And you can be sure that it will continue in the future. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, it will always be there.

I was beaten up by the cops a few years back, made an official complaint and nothing ever came of it. We had an incident caught on video a few Australia days back, when a cop was caught punching a member of the public. And a few days later the police commissioner said the officer did nothing wrong and wouldn't face action... whilst the journos stood their laughing. After massive media pressure, action was eventually reluctantly taken.

I can also remember an incident from my childhood, where someone was beaten to an absolute pulp in the freo lockup. It took a good four or five years for anything to ever come of it.

I guess my point is, that police brutality and violence is nothing special. It happens, and probably happens everyday - against potentially everyone, regardless of race. It's just when it is visible or against a certain community, it becomes an issue. Otherwise, it is hushed up.

2020hindsight · 11 June 2007

chops_a_must said:
Well, you can read the deaths in custody royal commission like I have.

Secondly, police brutality and violence is old as the police force is itself. And you can be sure that it will continue in the future. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, it will always be there....
I guess my point is, that police brutality and violence is nothing special. It happens, and probably happens everyday - against potentially everyone, regardless of race. It's just when it is visible or against a certain community, it becomes an issue. Otherwise, it is hushed up.

yep- although I'd dispute that it's handed out evenly (and I also compared it to a mother of young kids getting 18 months in jail for throwing stones if you remember, still looking for the facts here, maybe she was let out as part of the political deal - or some attempt to "calm down those politically troubled waters") - which brings us to your first point on that Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody :-

(Coroner) Ms Clements : "It is reprehensible that the detailed recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody should have to be referred to, so many years after the Royal Commission. The evidence is clear however that these recommendations are still apt and still ignored," she said.

Despite the damning findings, Police Commissioner Bob Atkinson said there were no grounds to suspend any of the officers named in the report.

Anyway, nothing we can sort out here, and will be in the news soon enough when (if?) the trial goes ahead soon. :2twocents

Spaghetti · 11 June 2007

disarray said:
getting the figure of 79% of some newspaper poll is hardly an accurate figure. stop spouting on like you have some wider moral imperative to make us think we are all at fault.

and to be honest i'm surprised at the amount of leftist guilt around here. i thought a stock board would be mostly inhabited with capitalist rationalists, instead i find a lot of emotional crusaders. as long as we are all making money hey?

_________________________________________________________________

Well not really. I did not fit into the white male culture in the corporate world. I had the skills though so the market is a great place for misfits with math, in my personal opinion. Also I have a little of a gambler in me. Bad hey?

I have also read market addicts drink more than average, die younger and have higher levels of stress. Maybe we can relate.

_________________________________________________________________

disarray said:
simple questions -

why have all other migrants to australia, many with similar disadvantages, been more successful than aborigines?

why are aborigines 50 times more likely to be criminals than white people? not a little bit more likely, but by a huge margin.

why can't aborigines adapt to a western lifestyle despite massive government assistance when waves of immigrants from different cultures spanning the globe can make a success of their communities with much less government help?

_________________________________________________________________

Simple question and a simple answer.

Aborigines are not migrants, I say once again. I see no proof. If a population radiates out from it's centre it does not constitute migration. Do you have proof those first peoples actually immigrated? Sounds weird to me.

Any people designated underclass status will have a higher crime rate. It usually indicates a dysfunction in the dominant group.

Also I am no lefty. Centrist perhaps.

Bobby · 11 June 2007

rederob said:
Hey Bobby
I heard it was part of the government's new training initiative, and is in keeping with "mainstreaming" aboriginal Australia.

Hello Rob,

Check out the action in Alice Springs, were comming a distant second.

:

Cheers Bob.

Spaghetti · 11 June 2007

Bobby, Disarray etc

If you do not like people that are so very Australian, more so than you are, then why not do as Aussies always say to complainers of our great country.

Go back to where you came from.

Aboriginal?

Bobby

2020hindsight

rederob

rederob

Bobby

BIG BWACULL

BIG BWACULL

BIG BWACULL

rederob

Julia

In Memoriam

2020hindsight

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