Would you go to war?

juw177 · 18 March 2009

http://www.theage.com.au/world/australian-troops-kill-5-afghan-children-20090213-874z.html

edit- found the link:
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/comments/id/600016/n/A-Survivor-s-Tale

Last week, SBS dateline aired an interview with the (remaining) Afghan family. The father says their home was broken into and the children were murdered in cold blood because there was supposedly terrorists in the area (none was found). The aussies just said "sorry, it was a mistake". The family got no compensation.

Garpal, thank you for your intelligent comment. Last I checked, theage was owned by fairfax. And can you explain how that takes away from what is being reported?

juw177 · 18 March 2009

Garpal Gumnut said:
Our soldiers need our support.

Anyone who denigrates or opposes our soldiers in battle is a mongrel dog.

I oppose the war so there is no reason to support the soldiers. By your logic soldiers are not accountable for their actions because we should support them unconditionally. Is that what you mean?

Sean K · 18 March 2009

juw177 said:
I oppose the war so there is no reason to support the soldiers. By your logic soldiers are not accountable for their actions because we should support them unconditionally. Is that what you mean?

I wonder how you'd feel if we had no defence force? I wonder where the country would be if we had no defence force?

I don't think you understand some very basic principles of national security juw.

People join the defence force to offer you the security to live in the manner you do. Once they are signed up they are obligated to deploy on any mission the government (and the majority of Australians be default) demand of them. It's a requirement of service to be ready to deploy. There's no choice.

I think it would be better that you leave this country and go somewhere where there isn't a standing defence force and see how you enjoy it. Try Somalia perhaps. Would be fine by me.

Garpal Gumnut · 18 March 2009

juw177 said:
I oppose the war so there is no reason to support the soldiers. By your logic soldiers are not accountable for their actions because we should support them unconditionally. Is that what you mean?

Those type of comments condemned many of our Vietnam Vets to ridicule and being ostracised on their return from overseas service.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Stay in Basketweavingtown as you would get short shrift if you came to Townsville.

Disgraceful comments.

gg

MrBurns · 18 March 2009

Garpal Gumnut said:
I have 4 sons that I know of, and I have served in the ADF. One of my sons is a digger and I worry that he may one day be in harms way.

I believe the following.

These overseas godbotherers are bloody dangerous and need to be extinguished.

I don't agree with women going to war unless they are going as nurses.

Australia has not quite lost the ability to pick its fights and win.

Our soldiers need our support.

Anyone who denigrates or opposes our soldiers in battle is a mongrel dog.

gg

I'll go along with all of that, but I would use small nuclear arms to eliminate the religious fanatics, it's too important to the future of the planet to leave any chance of their survival.

Do not agree with sending foot soldiers in there, they aren't winning this war are they ?

Nuke them (seriously) before they get their hands on a device because they wont think twice about using it on us.

juw177 · 18 March 2009

kennas said:
I wonder how you'd feel if we had no defence force? I wonder where the country would be if we had no defence force?

I don't think you understand some very basic principles of national security juw.

It is ridiculous to think the wars we are currently involved as a matter of defence and national security. I support a defence force to protect us when invaders destroy our homes and pillage our resources... much like a reversal of what is being done to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Garpal Gumnut; said:
Those type of comments condemned many of our Vietnam Vets to ridicule and being ostracised on their return from overseas service.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why should I be ashamed?

That sort of public backlash was needed to end the war. The public demanded the military be accountable for what they were doing abroad. Without it, the military gets a blank cheque and more lives lost as the war dragged on.

It is unfortunate for the vets and for the people that get in harms way.

Sean K · 18 March 2009

juw177 said:
It is ridiculous to think the wars we are currently involved as a matter of defence and national security.

You've studied strategic security obviously.

And apart from that, this thread was not about the current wars.

freddy2 · 18 March 2009

juw177 said:
It is ridiculous to think the wars we are currently involved as a matter of defence and national security. I support a defence force to protect us when invaders destroy our homes and pillage our resources... much like a reversal of what is being done to Iraq and Afghanistan.

So you would support the US invasion of Afghanistan considering it was the nation instrumental in support of a bunch of religious fanatics crashing planes into buildings.

juw177 · 18 March 2009

kennas said:
You've studied strategic security obviously.

And apart from that, this thread was not about the current wars.

No I haven't. Can you explain? How it is strategic to security to piss off a large percentage of the world's population?

And if we don't look at current wars how are we to assess the military?

Julia · 18 March 2009

gav said:
So whilst Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands, we should have just sat back and done nothing because it didnt affect us?

If you seriously think (and I can't believe you or anyone would) the invasion of Iraq was to rescue the population from Saddam, why are we not currently saving the devastated people of Zimbabwe? Or for that matter many other African nations?

Tysonboss1 · 18 March 2009

Re: Would you go to war...

It's Snake Pliskin said:
it is out of date and we aren't so lucky anymore. Who has good health care? Who can walk down the street without being attacked etc.

I always took the "lucky country" to mean we were lucky we didn't end up like every other british colony in the 3rd world.

we were lucky we had natural resources to fall back on.

darnsmall · 18 March 2009

sting said:
Do you not have any respect. Even by now you must know that some aussie ha laid down his life to try and protect islamic nutcases from themselves all for nothing if people like yo are here talking the way that you do.

I posted that prayer last nite for a reason that most of you would not have understood at the time. Julia I hope you now understand the reason behind it. It was not to b taken as you did but as a tribute to a brave man who approx 5 hrs earlier gave up his life to try to enable others to live some form of a decent life. At the time of publishing the prayer I wa unable to comment why.

But today of all days PLEASE show some RESPECT for a brave man who will not be coming home to life as we all know it.

DEATH YOU ARE WITH US TONIGHT
MAY ANGELS LEAD YOU IN, HERE YOU WILL BE WITH FRIENDS

UBIQUE

“Do I not have any respect” followed by “…protect Islamic nutcases from themselves” I think those two quotes answer your own question. No more need be said.

I didn’t realise that free speech and honesty are dangerous to the military? Actually I jest…I know free speech and honesty are exactly what the military fear most. How do you convince people to lay down their lives for money/government/power unless you lie/delude/persuade them?

I don’t believe many of us can call ourselves brave in this country, I for one still live here despite the atrocities we have committed and I do so because I enjoy the lifestyle. I don’t think there are many people at all who are fighting against what we have done to try and right the wrongs; hopefully I’m wrong.

darnsmall · 18 March 2009

juw177 said:
I oppose the war so there is no reason to support the soldiers. By your logic soldiers are not accountable for their actions because we should support them unconditionally. Is that what you mean?

I think we need to be critical of the government who controls the army and because i voted this government in (even if I didn't vote for them i still chose to live in this democracy) I'm partly responsible for troops being in Iraq and Afghanistan. So in a way it's kind of pointless not supporting the troops since I voted for it; and I'm part of it. I reap the benefits of them fighting/killing/murdering I have now doubt my hands are as bloody as theres but my detachment from the conflict means I can sleep easy at night.

I struggle to really support them, I look at the military not as human, but as a resource or tool used by the government to usurp other resource/power/money. Government tells them what to do, they do it. I don't get the emotional attachment as I don't have any family in the military and my own kids will be disowned if they chose that path.

As for being accountable, I'm not sure war crimes apply to the victors. I guess for the general community its a good idea to make an example of one or two bad dogs once in a while and leave it at that.

darnsmall · 18 March 2009

Julia said:
If you seriously think (and I can't believe you or anyone would) the invasion of Iraq was to rescue the population from Saddam, why are we not currently saving the devastated people of Zimbabwe? Or for that matter many other African nations?

We are not saving anyone unless we can secure a valuable resource without the threat of nuclear war. So if we find the worlds largest new oil reserve that will power the world for the next 1000 years in Zimbabwe; we'll be there!!! I don't think there is anything wrong with that either, we are strong and think we can take what we want...only problem with that is when we are weak we'll cop it. Bit like the current financial crisis eh...not much thought into the future

metric · 18 March 2009

funny how those 'islamic nutcases' were called 'mujahadin' (freedom fighters) by western media when the us was supplying them with weapons to fight the russians. now the media calls them, 'taliban'....those same people whom are fighting the invaders, now that the us has invaded them.

during the self governance of afghanistan, the opium crop was all but stopped. since the yanks invaded, opium has exploded.......where has the heroin ended up....? on western streets.... billions of dollars per year. pure coincidence again ...right....

who will scratch their head and deny it??

.

Sean K · 18 March 2009

metric said:
funny how those 'islamic nutcases' were called 'mujahadin' (freedom fighters) by western media when the us was supplying them with weapons to fight the russians. now the media calls them, 'taliban'....those same people whom are fighting the invaders, now that the us has invaded them.

during the self governance of afghanistan, the opium crop was all but stopped. since the yanks invaded, opium has exploded.......where has the heroin ended up....? on western streets.... billions of dollars per year. pure coincidence again ...right....

who will scratch their head and deny it??

.

Um, I think the Taliban fought against the Muj to take control the country, by memory. To be corrected.

>Apocalypto< · 18 March 2009

JTLP said:
Imagine this...WW3...full scale war...not naming races or anything...just a question:

- Would you give up everything you have known to defend the country that has treated you so well? The lucky country as people have put it...

- Would you, in this day and age, be willing to say goodbye to loved ones and know there is a chance you may not return?

- What would you do if conscription arose?

In all honesty, I think I would go. Not because I believe in the principles of war or what it achieves, but I have so much respect and admiration for the people who fought originally and were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for today's society...so to me...I would do the same so that future generations could enjoy the spoils of this beautiful country.

Please discuss...

In a second! :bigun2:

Julia · 18 March 2009

freddy2 said:
So you would support the US invasion of Afghanistan considering it was the nation instrumental in support of a bunch of religious fanatics crashing planes into buildings.

The terrorists were by nationality:
15 Saudi Arabia
1 Egypt
1 Lebanon
2 U.A.E.

Not an Afghan amongst them.

I acknowledge that Afghanistan was alleged to be knowingly allowing Bin Laden to live there, but have never been able to see that bombing the whole country was any appropriate reprisal to the attack on America.

kitehigh · 18 March 2009

darnsmall said:
We are not saving anyone unless we can secure a valuable resource without the threat of nuclear war. So if we find the worlds largest new oil reserve that will power the world for the next 1000 years in Zimbabwe; we'll be there!!! I don't think there is anything wrong with that either, we are strong and think we can take what we want...only problem with that is when we are weak we'll cop it. Bit like the current financial crisis eh...not much thought into the future

You must be suffering from some kind of bipolar disease. On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with taking another countries resources by force, and than you say you don't support the military. You can't have it both ways.

darnsmall · 18 March 2009

kitehigh said:
You must be suffering from some kind of bipolar disease. On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with taking another countries resources by force, and than you say you don't support the military. You can't have it both ways.

I can see why we are doing what we are doing and by living in Australia support what we've done, but I'm critical of our actions. I struggle to ever find a use for the military that I'd support. I think it really just a tool for the forceful acquisition of resource/infrastructure. Hence there is no way in hell I'd take up arms to defend this country when I happen to agree and acknowledge that we have done the wrong thing by Iraq.

Would you go to war?

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