Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

World War III, anyone?

This all i will say on this subject,people denying that planes did not fly into the towers have...MASSIVE problems:banghead::banghead::banghead:...tb

There are some pretty nutty theories, not backed my good evidence. Let's just not go there OK.

If we can stay within the realms of sensible argument without going off at a tangent, this could be a really good discussion.

No straw men here please.
 
I'm sure that most could agree with the possibility of some sort of collapse in the area affected. But member failure would surely be asymmetrical due to inconsistent levels of heat at different points of the building. Yet the collapse in all three cases has remarkable symmetry.

How so?
Good question..From the memory of the footage I've seen it did seem the collapse started with the upper floors generally falling horizontally. That doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that.

Grab a piece of cardboard approximately 300mm square, nine lengths of dowl about the the length of a pencil. place a support post at the corners and then place a post in between the corner posts and one post in the centre. Place the cardboard on top. The centre post will be carrying *approximately* the area equivalent to half the distance to the other supports in all directions. All other supports will be carrying *approximately* half the area to any other support.

Now knock out one of the corner posts. If you do it quick enough, the cardboard will stay in place and the other supports will take the extra load without any visable sign of stress. There may be some localised deflection in the corner that now has no support and is forced to cantilever.

now take out an adjacent corner support and the support between the two corners that now have no support. Approximately 33% of the card is now cantilevered. The card will still be supported and the load is still shared.

Now imagine the other 6 supports begin buckling due to either overcapacity of load from above, weakening due to heat or other. Take a 300mm ruler and run it under the card quickly so it makes contact with the remaining six supports approximately half up their length to replicate a compression failure. Observe the way the cardboard falls.


Actually I just thought that maybe drining straws cut to about 50mm in length would be better as supports. You could even use a little blue tack on their underside to keep them stable.
On top of the cardboard you could use 20 cent pieces above the straws.
Aplly heat to the last six straws with a butane torch.
Observe the outcome.


cheers,
 
There is no doubt planes hit those buildings but i doubt they brought them down, I don't hate america but if people don't believe that a government wouldn't hurt its own citizens need only look through history.

There is just so many inconsistantcies and when you think about it alot of people stood to gain from those events.

A plane crashes into the pentagon causing little damage and another brings down a tower ? And there are any renound and well known engineers that rebuff many of the main stream assumptions. Information is controlled and manipulated in every country in the world.

There are so many coincidences.... Is it also any coincidence that a week before Iran is due to open it's oil bourse selling oil in euro's that 5 undersea cables are mysteriously cut ! I mean i still don't really know what the main stream news explaination on that was, it changed every day. It is coincidence that there are basically democratic riots in Tibet and now many countries are talking boycott of the olympic opening. China is coping alot of outside pressure at the moment and it has US prints all over it. They are purposly destabilising the region. Look at eastern Europe NATO is on Russia's door step. Russia and China are been encircled does the US really need interceptor missiles in Europe, England, California, Greenland and Alaska to counter a couple rouge missiles from Iran and North Korea ! Think about it it you had the only system that could defeat other nuclear capabilites, no more MAD you would essentially control the world.
 
I'm sure that most could agree with the possibility of some sort of collapse in the area affected. But member failure would surely be asymmetrical due to inconsistent levels of heat at different points of the building. Yet the collapse in all three cases has remarkable symmetry.

How so?

The towers were made up of a internal steelcore with cross sections joining the outter skin of the building which was like a light exo-skelton, because a few floors of the exo-skelton were destroyed or weakened in the impact alot more weight was placed o the internal core,... the internal steel core in most buildings is encased in concrete (which would have saved the building) how ever when the trade centors were designed the replaced the concrete with a light weight fire retarding layer, which was to protect the steel core from "flame".

The designers made one fatal error,.... the light weight fire proofing was not intended to protect against a blast or explosion,

when the planes entered the building at 900km/hour a combination of framents shredding through the building and blast from the exploding fuel ripped away the light weight fire proofing leaving the steel core exposed to the fire that followed.

buildings, especially a high rise such as the trade centre is already perfectly balanced and centred to the pull of gravity,... so when the internal steel collom runningup the cente of the building failed and turned to mush under the weight the building fell perfectly verticle straight down,
 
As for the other arguements,...

as For the collapse to be cause by a controlled demolition it would take weeks of preping tonnes of explosives and there would be no question it was explosives,... you would see and hear the explosions.... and as I said earlier the explosives would have been damged in the impact of the plane.

As for the comment of the first bombing not dropping the tower there for the plane shouldn't have,..... The first bombing was only 1 van filled with explosives ( and crudly made explosives which were probally not pure there fore weaker) that were placed in the bottom of the building which would be the strongest most concrete encased part of the whole building,.... secondly it was not the explosion that took out the building it was the weakening of its steel core,.... the 1st bombing was not only a much smaller bang than the plane but it was in a concrete encased part of the building and there was no fire....
 
Im no engineer, but i have seen interviews with those who built/designed/planned the towers, and they stated they were designed to survive being hit by a passenger jet

Plus the way they collapsed is so suss...

quite the opposite actually,... I have seen a doco talking bout how the owers were not designed to take the impact of a plane,....

and out of all moden buildings,... those two building were probally the least able to accept that sort of damage.
 
Just a note with my Mod's hat on.

Please refrain from calling each other nutters, deluded, tin foil hatters or whatever. Let's just stick to the facts as we know them.

Thanks Guys.

wayne,..

I call a duck a duck,... and a crackpot a crack pot...

some of these guys are deluded,...
 
OK I'm not an engineer so accept that possibility, while still having doubts when credible voices have opposing views. Jury still out for me on WTC 1 & 2.

Here FWIW is the opposing view http://physics911.net/stevenjones

All well beyond me I'm afraid.

But that still leaves WTC 7. :cautious:
 
wayne,..

I call a duck a duck,... and a crackpot a crack pot...

some of these guys are deluded,...
Yes, on both sides of the fence. But lets leave that language for the true nutters, not for those who simply disagree with the official line, K?
 
Wayne, you worded that well. There is a possibility.


Tyson, your understanding of the fire retardant being a sheet style is the same as mine...I'm just trying to remember where exactly I got that info from..


cheers,
 
As for the other arguements,...

as For the collapse to be cause by a controlled demolition it would take weeks of preping tonnes of explosives and there would be no question it was explosives,... you would see and hear the explosions.... and as I said earlier the explosives would have been damged in the impact of the plane.

As for the comment of the first bombing not dropping the tower there for the plane shouldn't have,..... The first bombing was only 1 van filled with explosives ( and crudly made explosives which were probally not pure there fore weaker) that were placed in the bottom of the building which would be the strongest most concrete encased part of the whole building,.... secondly it was not the explosion that took out the building it was the weakening of its steel core,.... the 1st bombing was not only a much smaller bang than the plane but it was in a concrete encased part of the building and there was no fire....


EXACTLY CHAMP it takes a highly trained team of demolition experts in conjunction with dozens of workers weeks to drill and strategically place explosives to make a building collapse like that but your argueing that a boeing 767 can do it neatly in an hour! How do you explain traces of thermite and molten spots on the base steel structure consistant with demolition explosives found at the site ? Sure i wouldn't believe that I some guy on a forum said it but if you research you'll find it was actually the guy in charge of the clean up / investigation of the site that made the claims.

Your analysis of the steel structure is simply not right, watch the video then do some research then come and argue some points. The bomb in the basement was hundreds of kilo's of high explosive exactly the same type as Oklahoma ! Yeah that building held up real well :rolleyes:

A boeing 767 weighs under 100 tonnes and jet fuel burns at 1300 degrees. The buildings were designed to take a hit from a smaller jet but still there is no possible way that it caused that collapse . Steel pillars are extremely strong when you place force on top of them rather than from the side your trying to argue that the weight of 20 floors of WTC is enough to desintergrate 100 floors below into pieces the size of a car :eek:

How about the video evidence that shows that the fires weren't even that bad and were by no means hot enough to cause the steel to collapse. Hell even a firefighter reached the 76th level south tower Where it was hit and is recorded as saying there were small localised fires, he was fairly clear that the fires were not a serious threat.

Video taken before the collapse in the lobby area clearly shows tiles dislodged from the walls and cracks in the walls. An explosion over 80 stories up could not have caused that damage. The elevator shafts in the towers aren't continuous there are 3 stages each is atmospherically sealed. The tower manager for maintainance was in the basement at the time and reported a much larger explosion eminating from the basement area just before he felt another explosion that was clearly from the upper floors.

I'm not trying to dis your arguement and I was saying the exact same thing about 6 months ago but in all seriousness you raise two points of why it did happen that way. This documentary alone provides hundreds of clearly undeniably proven facts backedup with evidence from official documents, eye witness reports, expeert testimonies which shoot down every arguement I could think of which would point to it really been a terorist attack.

You know the biggest problem is it is a known fact that at least 6 of the supposed highjackers are alive and well in countries around the world !

Even the pilot that flew the exact plane same ID numebr everything that "flew" into the pentagon has said that the airial manouvers the plane was doing on route to its target were impossible and that the plane would have stalled. His exact words were "it appeared more like the movements of a military aircraft"
 
Wayne, you worded that well. There is a possibility.


Tyson, your understanding of the fire retardant being a sheet style is the same as mine...I'm just trying to remember where exactly I got that info from..


cheers,

It was on a doco on foxtel a couple of years ago,... I can't recall what it was called. But in the doco they were explaining how most traditional high rises should easily survive an impact from a plane because they are heavy buildings.
 
EXACTLY CHAMP it takes a highly trained team of demolition experts in conjunction with dozens of workers weeks to drill and strategically place explosives to make a building collapse like that but your argueing that a boeing 767 can do it neatly in an hour! How do you explain traces of thermite and molten spots on the base steel structure consistant with demolition explosives found at the site ? Sure i wouldn't believe that I some guy on a forum said it but if you research you'll find it was actually the guy in charge of the clean up / investigation of the site that made the claims.

Your analysis of the steel structure is simply not right, watch the video then do some research then come and argue some points. The bomb in the basement was hundreds of kilo's of high explosive exactly the same type as Oklahoma ! Yeah that building held up real well :rolleyes:

A boeing 767 weighs under 100 tonnes and jet fuel burns at 1300 degrees. The buildings were designed to take a hit from a smaller jet but still there is no possible way that it caused that collapse . Steel pillars are extremely strong when you place force on top of them rather than from the side your trying to argue that the weight of 20 floors of WTC is enough to desintergrate 100 floors below into pieces the size of a car :eek:

How about the video evidence that shows that the fires weren't even that bad and were by no means hot enough to cause the steel to collapse. Hell even a firefighter reached the 76th level south tower Where it was hit and is recorded as saying there were small localised fires, he was fairly clear that the fires were not a serious threat.

Video taken before the collapse in the lobby area clearly shows tiles dislodged from the walls and cracks in the walls. An explosion over 80 stories up could not have caused that damage. The elevator shafts in the towers aren't continuous there are 3 stages each is atmospherically sealed. The tower manager for maintainance was in the basement at the time and reported a much larger explosion eminating from the basement area just before he felt another explosion that was clearly from the upper floors.

I'm not trying to dis your arguement and I was saying the exact same thing about 6 months ago but in all seriousness you raise two points of why it did happen that way. This documentary alone provides hundreds of clearly undeniably proven facts backedup with evidence from official documents, eye witness reports, expeert testimonies which shoot down every arguement I could think of which would point to it really been a terorist attack.

You know the biggest problem is it is a known fact that at least 6 of the supposed highjackers are alive and well in countries around the world !

Even the pilot that flew the exact plane same ID numebr everything that "flew" into the pentagon has said that the airial manouvers the plane was doing on route to its target were impossible and that the plane would have stalled. His exact words were "it appeared more like the movements of a military aircraft"

Firstly the explosive charge in the trade centre was much smaller than oaklohoma (trade charge was carried in van and oaklohoma was carried in a truck).

Secondly the Anfo (ammonium nirate fuel oil explosive) is barely classed as a high explosive, especially if you get the mix wrong or don't have a large enough booster charge ( if you don't have a large booster charge = 10% of the weight in anfo in TNT then alot of the anfo's energy will be transferd to flame rather than heat).

thirdly the oaklohoma bombing only collapse one side of the structure the core remained intact.

and yes steel pilliars are extremly strong under presure, untill heat is applied that is why they have the fire retarding in the first place,... If the designers feel they have to protect the steel pilliars from a fire invoving office furniture and waste paper, don't you think a plane crashig into the pillars and then jet fuel burning around them will have some affect.

A steel pillar would not have to reach it's melting piont to fail, it would not hold 100% of it's intergity to the point in reaches melting piont and then fail,... as it getts hotter and hotter it gets progressivly weaker,... add to that the extra weight placed on it, and the possible damage from the high speed impact of a vehicle weighing tonnes.

If tonnes of high explosives were used then there would certainy have been more evidence,.... and what about the team of 50 or so guys that took weeks to place the explosives, surely one of them would have cracked by now and said somthing.

And what would the motive be for doing this any way.
 
There are some pretty nutty theories, not backed my good evidence. Let's just not go there OK.

If we can stay within the realms of sensible argument without going off at a tangent, this could be a really good discussion.

No straw men here please.

who said planes werent flown into the twin towers? it is the pentagon where there is doubt about an plane hitting it.
 
motives

1. The US now has an open slather on attacking countries in deems as been terrorists
2. George Bush now has almost total control and can bypass laws as he see's fit. He spy's on US citizens then years later makes it legal before he ends his term.
3. Profit: There was heaps of gold at the site not all accounted for. The owner took out huge insurance and thousands of investigations relating to large business figures are vapourised.

It was the americas new pearl harbour.
 
and just on the ability of the twin towers to withstand the impact of an airliner...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html

Statements by Engineers

Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." 2 Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires.
 
This all i will say on this subject,people denying that planes did not fly into the towers have...MASSIVE problems:banghead::banghead::banghead:...tb

i havent read anything in this thread where anyone has suggested planes never hit the twin towers.

when you post stuff like that, you should post the quote you are refering to.

i notice that people here that are doubtful of the official story post links and quotes to back up their arguments. while the official storyline followers rarely do.;) some even start name calling as they have an absence of facts to back their position.
 
who said planes werent flown into the twin towers? it is the pentagon where there is doubt about an plane hitting it.
Yes that was my point. A saw a straw man being built and I am determined to keep that, and other nonsense such as ad hominem insults, right out of this thread.

Cheers
 
motives

1. The US now has an open slather on attacking countries in deems as been terrorists
2. George Bush now has almost total control and can bypass laws as he see's fit. He spy's on US citizens then years later makes it legal before he ends his term.
3. Profit: There was heaps of gold at the site not all accounted for. The owner took out huge insurance and thousands of investigations relating to large business figures are vapourised.

It was the americas new pearl harbour.

If it were not to kill or capture terorist threats what other reason would the USA have to spend billions in fighting a war in afganistan.
 
If it were not to kill or capture terorist threats what other reason would the USA have to spend billions in fighting a war in afganistan.

i have heard a few possible reasons why. one of which is the opium trade. by 2001 the taliban had effectively shut down the opium growing trade of afgahnistan. http://opioids.com/afghanistan/opiumban.html

today, the opium trade is thriving again.. http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/200...ved-in-drug-trafficking-from-afghanistan.html

iraq is also becomming a new player in the opium trade.. http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/487/opium_poppies_cultivated_iraq

the cia has been accused of being involved in the south american drug trade..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking

also, afgahnistan is a strategic military/energy position.
http://www.newhumanist.com/oil.html

but...DYOR:)
 
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