World War III, anyone?

[Kimosabi]

If the subject is horror scenarios, try this one. A weakened USA reverts to isolationism and withdraws from its international policing role. China, still hungry for raw materials and unwilling to pay for them, seizes the opportunity and on specious reasoning annexes the Pilbara area of WA. The USA and Europe figuratively shrug their shoulders…

If you'd bother to do any research into the history of China, I'd like for you to find me the number of times they have started wars to further their imperial ambitions...

We have more to worry about with our supposed friends who actively encourage us to poison our air, food and water than those who are more interested in trading with us and doing business.

 

[Bushman]

If you'd bother to do any research into the history of China, I'd like for you to find me the number of times they have started wars to further their imperial ambitions...

We have more to worry about with our supposed friends who actively encourage us to poison our air, food and water than those who are more interested in trading with us and doing business.

Various Chinese dynasties have invaded Indochina over the last 3 millenium or so. Or go and and ask the Tibetans about benevolent China....

But I do not think China has territorial ambitions. Their hatred of Taiwan is ideological - the dreaded Chang Kai Shek and his Kuomintang sought safe haven there when thrown out by the socialists.

War is like toxic debt. People forget until it touches their lives. Hence it goes in cycles. I think a growing Chinindian middle class and MAD should save the day in term of WWIII. The middle class do not see the need to spill their blood for ideological purposes. After all, they contribute their hard earned tax dollars so that profesional armies can go and deal with the 'rogue states' for them.

 

[DialecticBlue]

I do not think that war is imminent, as such. China is too smart for that – read Sun Tzu, ‘The Art of War’ – even though America is running around the globe like a hormonal teenager.

It is just that it took WWII to end the depression of the ’30s. The Central banks did not have a clue then, and they do not have a clue now.

It will be the average person on the street who picks up the tab for this one, somehow. ie: if the Gumnit is picking up all the toxic debt, then the taxpayer had to eventually pay for it, and that’s without a war.

Add to that terrorism, which you can’t defeat because it is intangible, it is a concept. You have to address the causes of terrorism. You define what they are and the solution, cause it’s too hard for me.

What price a rally of some sort next week in the US, just to keep us on our toes.

Expect the unexpected which will happen unless you expect it

 

[STRAT]

taiwan - china wants them back.

while i personally dont believe it will end in war, the fear of such later this year (say about olympics time) will create its own economic issues.

have a nice day.

Never mind Taiwan. Anyone lookin to pick a fight with China only need side with Tibet and the poms might be doin just that. If Bush's little brown nose Blair was still PM it would due serious consideration. The yanks have been solving their financial problems with other peoples wars for near on 70years and if no good war was available they were not above sneaking around and starting one. The only time its backfired on them is when they have put their own troops into the mix.

 

[Whiskers]

Various Chinese dynasties have invaded Indochina over the last 3 millenium or so. Or go and and ask the Tibetans about benevolent China....

But I do not think China has territorial ambitions. Their hatred of Taiwan is ideological - the dreaded Chang Kai Shek and his Kuomintang sought safe haven there when thrown out by the socialists.

War is like toxic debt. People forget until it touches their lives. Hence it goes in cycles. I think a growing Chinindian middle class and MAD should save the day in term of WWIII. The middle class do not see the need to spill their blood for ideological purposes. After all, they contribute their hard earned tax dollars so that profesional armies can go and deal with the 'rogue states' for them.

You're a pretty level headed fella bushman.

It must be all the clean country air.

I'm not a great scholar of Asian history, but I have heard it said proudly that China had never invaded another country... just out of curiosity, weren't the Mongolian's the middle-age invaders? Didn't they try to invade the then China... hence the Great Wall of China was built?

 

[Kimosabi]

The Chinese appear to have been sucked in by the Americans pretty well.

The Americans have exported their inflation and pollution to China and are now in the process of devaluing the Chinese holdings of American Dollars.

What may be funny though, is when the fat lady stops singing the Chinese could come out owning America.

I have this feeling that the rest of the world is finally getting wise to the manipulations of the control freaks in the USA and Europe and may hopefully tell these psychopaths where to go...

 

[Mofra]

Professor Keen said that a radical new approach to managing the economy would probably be required. In the 1930’s that took the form of ‘The New Deal’. It was the new deal that led the US and the world out of Depression. The ‘New Deal’ as I understand it, was the Government borrowing money and spending it on infrastructure so workers could have a job which meant they could spend.

However, I would beg to differ on that point with Professor Keen. From my reading of history, it was WW11 that bought the world out of the Depression.

Interesting theory. I have attended lectures that talk about the military build up prior to WWII as being a major contributor to overcoming the lagging economic effects of the early days of the depression, and some suggesting that it was in fact a planned addition to "The New Deal" overall.

 

[Tysonboss1]

Perhaps Tysonboss1 you try telling your mates if they don't like it there or what happens to them there they should leave and go back to their own country?

A soldier doen't get to choose his war,... they are there doing a there job to protect us,... The way I see it, we can fight them in afganistan, or we can fight them in sydney, new york and londan.

Before passing judgement spare a thought for our soldiers.

99.9% of Australians would have no idea what goes on in Afganistan on a daily basis,... or what Our soldiers are going through over there, When my mate "Lids" got hurt all that was on the news as a 5 second clip saying an australian had been injured, It didn't mention that he had lost his sight, his arm and a leg and was flown to germany for emergency surgury.

 

[DialecticBlue]

I have to put my tuppence worth in here.

Tysonboss1, I fully agree with you. All this pontificating is so much bull**** really. I have immense respect and admiration for our troops, indeed the troops of any country. As you say, they go where they are sent. Australians own a large debt of gratitude to the men and women of our armed forces.

My understanding is that they are doing a mighty job of community re-building and cultural bridge-building in Afghanistan, Iraq, Timor and anywhere else they are sent.

Have a happy and safe Easter

Graeme Mills

 

[Pronto]

If you'd bother to do any research into the history of China, I'd like for you to find me the number of times they have started wars to further their imperial ambitions

Bushman beat me to it, except that I would also add India (1962/3). But I take your point. China has not been overtly imperialistic historically, and I suspect that has been because it has had enough on its plate in simply keeping itself together as best it can. But that doesn't mean to say that this will always be the case.
I suppose that I was also making the point that Australia is effectively screwed without 'great and powerful friends' (especially the USA) whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

 

[Julia]

99.9% of Australians would have no idea what goes on in Afganistan on a daily basis,... or what Our soldiers are going through over there, When my mate "Lids" got hurt all that was on the news as a 5 second clip saying an australian had been injured, It didn't mention that he had lost his sight, his arm and a leg and was flown to germany for emergency surgury.

Tyson, I so agree with you. To me the real tragedy of war is every bit as much the devastating injuries as the deaths. At least the death is final.
Soldiers such as your friend are forced to suffer for the rest of their lives, usually with zilch thanks from their country.
And then there are all the innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq etc.
How is your friend coping?

 

[DialecticBlue]

China & Imperialism

Extract from an Article I wrote on the current turmoil in Tibet

1911 – 1949 were very turbulent years in China. Looking inward and immersed in its own internal conflict, China lost control of the outlying provinces, of which Tibet was one. Then in 1949 Mao emerged the victor and seized power.

Mao had fought the Japanese (unlike Chiang ki-shek, who lost the support and respect of the people because of this) and had learned the hard way that China could not afford to be divided if it were to be powerful. Being raped by another nation is not pleasant and tends to stick in the mind, somewhat. One of Mao’s first priorities was to bring the outlying Provinces, over which China had a historical claim, back into the fold. Tibet was one of those provinces.

It is interesting and informative to note that Mao did not try to extend his reach any further. He had a powerful and experienced army at his command. The West had been weakened by WW11. He could have easily taken many small countries around those outlying provinces. However, he chose only those over which China had a historical claim. Thus not provoking Russia, Britain and America. Although weakened, they were still very powerful. To understand that strategy, it is best to read Sun Tzu, ‘The Art of War’, which counsels a Ruler not to extend his(her) lines and concentrate on consolidating power. For the Ruler who extends his(her) lines weakens the State and inevitably the extended lines will be cut off, unless they are very, very strong. Let your mind mull over the current actions of America, which is running around the world like a hormonal adolescent, in contrast to the actions of China. Honk Kong was a waiting game. Taiwan?? What is 50, 100, 200 years in 5,000?

Note also, that China took a stand in Vietnam and Korea, but did not push through. The West saw it as the advance of Communism. China saw it as the invasion by the West.



...... its Easter, 'Always look on the bright side of life'

 

[2020hindsight]

Perhaps Tysonboss1 you try telling your mates if they don't like it there or what happens to them there they should leave and go back to their own country?

coincidentally, WDW, - or should I be saying / rephrasing that "intentionally "? -
"Who Dares Wins" is the motto of said SAS.


a handful of blokes doing all the work if you ask me. - and achieving 10 times per head what the US achieve - with their ground troops anyways. - and the yanks are the first to admit it.

Meanwhile the Iraq War ( WW 2.5?) is a flaming mess - and the 300 or 400 Aussie troops that Rudd is (presumably still) planning to leave there to defend the Embassy will also have their work cut out for them . sheesh!
shinbone shinbone and double shinbone.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/23/2197031.htm?section=justin

Missile attacks pound Baghdad's Green Zone
Posted 1 hour 22 minutes ago

The heavily fortified Green Zone in the Iraqi capital Baghdad has been hit by a sustained barrage of rocket or mortar fire.

It is not immediately clear where the missiles landed or if there were any casualties, after an attack lasting about 15 minutes.

The US military has blamed past missile attacks on the Green Zone on rogue elements within the Mehdi Army militia of the anti-US cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

The cleric last month renewed a seven-month old ceasefire for his militia.

A large plume of thick black smoke could be seen rising from one area of the Green Zone, which houses the Iraqi parliament and many government ministries as well as the US embassy and other diplomatic missions .

and presumably the Aus Embassy - previously the Green Zone was called the Internationsl Zone apparently.

 

[metric]

global warming will start the next world war....

The consequences of climate change are a science fiction nightmare. The writer of Dr Who, Russell T. Davies, once told me the only plot he would avoid was the environment because he could not give audiences a happy ending.


Yet Lovelock contemplates catastrophe almost with excitement. I ask why is he not terrified.


He answers that he has never lost a single night's sleep over the future. Scientific interest overcomes self-interest. He has a humility about the place of humans in the 3.5 billion year lifespan of the Earth. He talks not of people but of "our species".

He passionately wants "the best of our species" to survive, and is philosophical about the majority who won't.


"It will be a challenging and difficult life ahead but it will bring out the best in us. It will bring the most awful problem for our people and our Government.


"At some point, we are going to have to say Britain is a lifeboat. If any more people come on board then we will sink.


"If we get it wrong, you will have ghastly encampments like Darfur. People will be smuggling their way in and setting up camps. Ethnic communities will want to help them and civil war will start."


However, immigration is also a natural form of selection, he argues. Those who are prepared to travel will be the survivors.


"We should be selective and those brave, enterprising healthy people coming over in cockle boats from Africa should be the first we let in.


"I think we will have to be rough on people of my age. But I have lived a darn good life, why should I grumble? One shouldn't be a freeloader."

He admits he cannot mourn for people he does not know. Selection is already happening. "Nations are selecting who they allow in. We are a soft touch in the UK compared with Australia."


As nationals move to escape catastrophe, new forms of colonisation will occur. Lovelock believes that the current Chinese economic interest in Africa is part of a greater plan.


"By 2040, China will be uninhabitable." Lovelock believes that the Chinese, because of their high levels of industrial activity, will be the first to suffer, with the death of all plant life.


"So I think the Chinese will go to Africa. They are already there, preparing a new continent - the Chinese industrialists who claim to be out there mining minerals are just there on a pretext of preparing for the big move.


"This is not science fiction. Mr Putin will colonise Siberia. Those who will have a very rough time are those in the indian subcontinent. You don't need much of a sea level rise to wipe Bangladesh off the face of the Earth."


Australians have enough land and resources to stay put. Lovelock sees Americans moving to Canada. Americans have the natural advantage of being born migrants.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=541748&in_page_id=1770

 

[2020hindsight]

:topic
I notice that "Who Dares Wins" was adopted as a motto by the 3rd Battalion 25th Marines - "used after return from Iraq in 2005."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Dares_Wins

 

[moneymajix]

Re: PEACE NOW

If you attract what you focus on then I choose a peaceful universe.

 

[Superfly]

Thats because noboby wanted to know about Mao and his communist idea's in the big modern cities such as Shanghai etc... Mao had to spread his lies among the rural poor to gain support.

It is interesting and informative to note that Mao did not try to extend his reach any further. He had a powerful and experienced army at his command. The West had been weakened by WW11. He could have easily taken many small countries around those outlying provinces. However, he chose only those over which China had a historical claim. Thus not provoking Russia, Britain and America. Although weakened, they were still very powerful.

In May 1945 the Red Army numbered 20 million infantry men, almost fully motorised thats to American help with trucks, jeeps.. The Chinese had seen how the Japanese had been mauled by the Red Army and Mao in the late 40's wanted nothing to do with angrying such a neighbour.

Let your mind mull over the current actions of America, which is running around the world like a hormonal adolescent, in contrast to the actions of China. Honk Kong was a waiting game. Taiwan?? What is 50, 100, 200 years in 5,000?

Mao himself said that revolutions happen without warning.. and so will the end of the communist party's claim over mainland China... Although the Chinese communists have learnt by watching the fall of the USSR, in the end socialism doesn't work.

Note also, that China took a stand in Vietnam and Korea, but did not push through. The West saw it as the advance of Communism. China saw it as the invasion by the West.

China also took a stand and supported brother number 1 for many years with the Khmer Rogue... even now returns people ( to prison / death ) trying to escape over the border from the other state they support North Korea...and hundred of thousands of red troops surging into North Korea from the Chinese border is more than a stand, but due to US intervention they where beaten back to inches from their own start off points and humbled by the west, a lesson they have not forgotten. Vietnam was more the Russians backing NV...a favour the US payed back by bleeding the USSR dry in Afganistan.

 

[Superfly]

I honestly think the US wouldnt have a show against China.

China could shoot people instead of shells out of its cannons. Sheer weight of numbers imo.

Its all seeming a bit Orwellian to me...

The US could probably decimate mainland China with its submarine fleet alone.. destorying most needed infustructure, resulting in millions of straving Chinese.. and even with conventional weapons it may just take a while longer..

why do you think that Taiwan is still a free country...

 

[metric]

ww3 is out. we can destroy the world 1000 times over with the nukes available. thats not going to happen. no fun in that.

china and the us are already engaged in a war. business is war.

 

[agro]

the stuff going on between china and tibet is something to be concerned about imo

don't want to get into a fight with china!!