What do Aussies believe re: Evolution?

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

jonojpsg said:

Alright Beej, what about origins of life then?

Where did DNA come from - and please don't say it built itself up from nothing!!!! or appeared from another planet!!!!

Where did life come from - and don't tell me it came from non-life!!!

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Well I'm no molecular biologist etc, but I am aware of experiments that started back in the 50s and have been confirmed many times where simple self-replicating organic/RNA based "life forms" (amino acids) can be created from a "primordial sludge" plus the application of large electrical currents. Ie, "life" has been created in labs from nothing but carbon compound sludge (compounds that could have easily existed on the earth back in the time when all this would have occurred). One theory goes that lightning strikes may have provided the electrical current source needed to "spark" these earliest and simplest life forms into existence, then of course evolution takes over for billions of years from there.

Lot's of info on the science/theory here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

The thing that really erks me is why religious people see evolution/darwin etc as anti-religion? Personally, I think that there is so much evidence for the process of evolution that if you do believe in god, then you better come to terms with evolution as the process by which god created life on earth.

To me it is neither here nor there whether that was the case or not, however I don't see why a belief in the overwhelmingly supported theory of evolution in and of itself necessarily precludes a belief in the existence of god?

Cheers,

Beej

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Life originated from somewhere, but why make up some old grey bearded man in the sky (or any other of the gods) and worship Him when we don't really have any proof other than the words of schitzophrenic 'prophets'.

Perhaps God is simply a term for what we don't understand or have proof for, including the origin of life, and what started evolution...

I'm going out to build an idol to worship that idea. Perhaps it'll make the sun shine tomorrow too.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

jonojpsg said:

Alright Beej, what about origins of life then?

Where did DNA come from - and please don't say it built itself up from nothing!!!! or appeared from another planet!!!!

Where did life come from - and don't tell me it came from non-life!!!

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Jono Jono Jono.

Why is it that whenever I see someone of a religious leaning talk about their imaginary friend, they try to find the biggest gap they can and stuff HIM into it?

A while ago religion had all the answers - and if you didn't believe those answers, there's this handy fire over here you can step into.

Then science started to figure out the real reasons behind things and suddenly the imaginary friend couldn't live there any more. The gaps get smaller and smaller, and people seem desperate to stuff that imaginary friend as far back into that gap as possible.

You seem like you are spoiling for a fight because someone doubted the existance of your imaginary friend and are looking for the biggest gap you can find to stuff him into. But just like YOU can find gaps where science hasn't explored and stick you fingers in your ears and go "la la la - see my imaginary friend exists in that gap.", science comes up with the occassional gem that when you mention it to those of a religious leaning, they tend to either a) shout even louder about their imaginary friend or b) slink off and sulk.

So here it is Jono.

Go investigate something called endogenous retroviruses.

Have fun

Sir O

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

If we evolved from the apes, then what happened to the apes left behind?

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

windy said:

If we evolved from the apes, then what happened to the apes left behind?

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They're still around. Occasionally you see some of them posting on this forum too.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

windy said:

If we evolved from the apes, then what happened to the apes left behind?

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God didn't love them and they went to a hot place.

Sheesh Windy if you can't be bothered to ask an intelligent question I can't be bothered to give you an intelligent answer.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Sir Osisofliver said:

Jono Jono Jono.

Why is it that whenever I see someone of a religious leaning talk about their imaginary friend, they try to find the biggest gap they can and stuff HIM into it?

A while ago religion had all the answers - and if you didn't believe those answers, there's this handy fire over here you can step into.

Then science started to figure out the real reasons behind things and suddenly the imaginary friend couldn't live there any more. The gaps get smaller and smaller, and people seem desperate to stuff that imaginary friend as far back into that gap as possible.

You seem like you are spoiling for a fight because someone doubted the existance of your imaginary friend and are looking for the biggest gap you can find to stuff him into. But just like YOU can find gaps where science hasn't explored and stick you fingers in your ears and go "la la la - see my imaginary friend exists in that gap.", science comes up with the occassional gem that when you mention it to those of a religious leaning, they tend to either a) shout even louder about their imaginary friend or b) slink off and sulk.

So here it is Jono.

Go investigate something called endogenous retroviruses.

Have fun

Sir O

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Ossi Ossi Ossi (Oi Oi Oi ),
I love a barney as you have pointed out - I also love it when people take up the challenge

WHy is it whenever I see someone of an atheistic leaning say they don't have an imaginary friend they try and shout down those who do? Is is because they are jealous and want to find something to fill their gap?

Yeah yeah, I know science is "discovering" more and more all the time about things that fundamentalists have put forward as reasons to believe in God, and endogenous retroviruses are a part of that. However when you look at the overall picture, the more science discovers, the more gaps there will be to fill (for fun, investigate infinite sequences )

I'm not going la la la, I'm just putting forward the point of view that science doesn't and cannot by definition have all the answers.

Oh and Beej, those 50s experiments are so, well, 50s.

There has never been a scientific experiment that has produced pure samples of the correct type of proteins or nucleotides necessary for the production of life. However, in 1953 the famous Miller/Urey experiment proved that in a hypothetical primordial atmosphere, ammonia, water, methane, and energy can combine to form some amino acids which are required for life. Yet the highly praised Miller/ Urey experiment did not produce any of the fundamental building blocks of life itself. It produced 85 percent tar, 13 percent carbolic acid, 1.05 percent glycine, 0.85 percent alanine, and trace amounts of other chemicals. Although the amino acids glycine and alanine are required for life, the tar and carbolic acids would be toxic to any proteins if they ever formed. Every subsequent experiment of this kind has produced similar results. Some experiments have produced slightly higher percentages of the usable product, but the majority of the material that is produced by these experiments is toxic to life.[11]

Mmm, sounds yummy

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

After having a good look around the place of come to the conclusion that most people evolved from Monkeys and a small handful of us were created by god.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

For those that beleive in evo - Where do you stand on right and wrong? Is there such a thing ?

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Jono,

Abiogenesis, the origin of life has NOTHING to do with evolution.
Don't confuse the two.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

What was Darwins book called again ?

Wasnt it - "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection: Or, the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life"

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Jonojpsg said:

Some creationist propaganda/drivel.... plus this little gem: "Oh and Beej, those 50s experiments are so, well, 50s. "

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Jono - are you a genetic scientist? A micro-biologist perhaps? Or are just spouting creationist propoganda because you are actually a religious person who finds their beliefs somehow threatened by the revelations of modern science?

Oh and by the way, early Abiogenesis experiments might be "oh so 50s", but creationist BS is just so, well, medievil by comparison!

Beej

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Religion. It's a placebo.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

I see the argument is still extremely polarized and dogmatic (with a couple of exceptions).

I don't know what happened, but I'm pretty sure the truth is not at the extremes. How about thinking outside the square? How about an evolution of thought on the subject that can include all possibilities?

FWIW, both sides are still labouring under the "Old dude in the sky" meme. Are there other possibilities as to what {insert favourite term here} is?

Of course there are... an infinite number in fact, many with creation/evolution congruency.

BWTFDIK (only my own experience)

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Wow what a boring and pointless argument. Let him or her believe what they wish to believe. Then we can all have some peace on this planet!

My view: random probability at play. Not very mystic but I find my mysticism in nature. Off to Wilsons Prom soon for some real energy - the ocean, the tides, the moon, the sun, the solar system. The wonders of physics! Bliss.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

Bushman said:

Wow what a boring and pointless argument. Let him or her believe what they wish to believe. Then we can all have some peace on this planet!

My view: random probability at play. Not very mystic but I find my mysticism in nature. Off to Wilsons Prom soon for some real energy - the ocean, the tides, the moon, the sun, the solar system. The wonders of physics! Bliss.

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Thanks for adding to the mundane pointlessness.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

wayneL said:

Thanks for adding to the mundane pointlessness.

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T'is what I do the best.

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

jonojpsg said:

Ossi Ossi Ossi (Oi Oi Oi ),
I love a barney as you have pointed out - I also love it when people take up the challenge

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You know Jono I'm not surprised, because I had to ask myself, when the poll reads that nearly 3/4 of people say it's not your imaginary friend, why would come spoiling for a barney? Now me I'm not into self flagellation, but won't you shouting louder and louder at this crowd (which you KNOW don't share your beliefs) just make you seem ...well like a jerk? And consequently the philosophy you are attempting to espouse... attractive to jerks?

WHy is it whenever I see someone of an atheistic leaning say they don't have an imaginary friend they try and shout down those who do? Is is because they are jealous and want to find something to fill their gap?

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Oh wow Jono. Your witty turnaround of my own words has made me realise that I have a huge whole in my life that I now must rush out and fill by devoting myself utterly to Islam. Bring me my Koran so that I may call Jihad against you you filthy heathen Christian....What you wanted me to find religion didn't you? Hmmm perhaps you shouldn't project Jono...it makes you look silly.

Yeah yeah, I know science is "discovering" more and more all the time about things that fundamentalists have put forward as reasons to believe in God, and endogenous retroviruses are a part of that. However when you look at the overall picture, the more science discovers, the more gaps there will be to fill (for fun, investigate infinite sequences )

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Hey I know a lot of maths, what particular aspect of infinite number sequences would you like to examine and how exactly do they relate to your imaginary friend? Of course when you look at the "overall picture" you filter it through the rose colored glasses of your religion, so something as basic as math has religious significance. No wait...hang on...I know this tactic This is about First Cause right? Before infinity what was there? There has to be something right? Cause and effect rules absolutely, there can't have been just nothing, that doesn't make sense. So therefore it can't be natural so it has to be supernatural. Yea and Yaweh did stretch forth his hand and made the heavens move and caused the universe to start. Oh darn I read the last bit wrong from the holy text, let me try again. And the flying spagetti monster did stretch forth his noodly appendage and stirred the sauce which caused all of us to become one with the cosmic taste. No that doesn't sound right either how about... and the great jet of steam from Russells teapot did cause the heavens to move and make us inexplicably attracted to tea.

Wow that was fun Jono. So did you even look at ERV's or did you just right them off as another "discovery" that doesn't gel with your personal belief system and can therefore be ignored?

I'm not going la la la, I'm just putting forward the point of view that science doesn't and cannot by definition have all the answers.

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And so you fill the unanswered questions with....... C'mon it's not that hard.... starts with S....say it with me Jono... superstition. Well done. I tell you you hide your imaginary friend in gaps and you nod you head and show us how it's done. Brilliant tactic Jono. I'm in awe.

Well that was entertaining Jono, let me know when you've had enough self flagellation.

Sir O

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

This is great! I love it when I get flagellated - which is what you are doing, not what I am doing. So because I am trying to explain what facts point to there being a God even in the face of 3/4 of survey respondents believing otherwise, I am making myself look like a jerk?? I hope that ASFers don't think that people holding alternative opinions, beliefs, etc to them think that they are jerks. I certainly don't think you are a jerk, just that you think differently to me

Ok ok, turning your words around was a bit trite, but I couldn't help myself. Fact is there are plenty more people in the world that believe in a supernatural creator than that don't, so I'm not sure that I am projecting. Surely there must be something in it. And no I'm not trying to convince myself here, just pointing out the stats.

And the infinite sequences thing was just pointing out that as you divide a sequence up into more and more pieces, eg the classic half way to the door scenario, you never quite get there. And yes, FIRST CAUSE is a valid argument - if there was a big bang, what caused it? And if you want to propose multiple universes, then where did the mechanism for creating the multiple universes appear from. I mean seriously, how can a universe just appear? How can one believe that it was simply "nature"? Or chance?

Yeah I had a look at ERVs - very interesting. Where did the ERVs come from though?

So yep, I'm filling my gap with ... hang on... it starts with G... yep, God. Sorry if I've disappointed Sir O

Re: What do Aussies believe re Evolution?

jonojpsg said:

And the infinite sequences thing was just pointing out that as you divide a sequence up into more and more pieces, eg the classic half way to the door scenario, you never quite get there.

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YES YOU DO ...that is a convergent series.

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 ..... etc leads to a whole number, 1 to be exact!