Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Wolfgang · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I still can not see wear it is written that we get 6c a unit pa. the way I read it Cash payments TOTALLING 3 cents per unit.

Cash payments totalling 3 cents per Unit will be made to Unitholders by 24 December 2008 and quarterly thereafter, with the first payment to be made in October 2008.

Breaker1 Thanks for the accidental email from a PIF creditor it is good news.

I will not be in Australia form the middle of September to the end of October I will try not to think about this mess and have a good time.

Wolfgang

Jadel · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

All Queensland AG members next meeting.

Saturday at 2 pm 30 August 2008.

Beenleigh RSL & Mt Warren Golf Course

13 Bardyn Halliday Dr, Mt Warren Park

Please note that you may be requested to provide your PIF current investor ID number.

We will be discussing the proposals put forward by WC on the future of our Fund

Regards Chris

great dame · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

PIFholder said:
Great Dame,

I just spoke with WC who advised that Computershare are counting the votes, but that they are using the reply paid facilities of WC because it's less expensive and more efficient.

Cheers
PIFholder

They should be sent to Computshare not to Wellington That is the correct way it should be done And wellington would know that .// The Dame ///

seamisty · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dora,I think the word 'manageable' was used regarding the 6cent distribution when I spoke with WC. By that I think it means that the initial 3 cent distribution would be made up of part capital and part income. This was for tax purposes and also once the bank loan had been repaid it would be paid from income. I would think the Fund would be close to having repaid the loan by now. On a different subject, I have spoken to a few other investors lately, some who made posts previously and others who aren't confident of their computer skills to post but use the forum as a source of information. Their concern was the noticable absence of some valued contributors who seem to have lost respect for the content/calibre of posts on the forum. Some also said that they no longer bother to even look at the forum as they find the negativity depressing.For those of you who are still taking the time to share your information and resolve confusion, thank you. For those of you who no longer post, please reconsider, you are genuinely missed. Regards, Seamisty

selciper · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The fact that there still appears to be confusion about what the 6 cents distribution really means, demonstrates the inadequacies of WC's communications abilities. They can copy pages and pages of turgid legal language, but can't come to grips with the writing of crisp summaries in simple English. That's the reason that so many posts contain anxious messages trying to interpret important sentences in WC documentation. WC need urgent professional assistance in this area and issue an easy-to-read brochure. After all, PIF investors aren't sitting for Law School exams.

Mary Lynch · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

In JH's defence......in these volatile times it must be difficult to give "set in concrete" predictions of future distributions. It's possible that she does not want to put in print anything on which she can't follow up. Thus she says 3% by Xmas (which she "promises".)..but cannot do more than "hope" for an "implied amount" of 1.5% quarterly thereafter....WHO KNOWS, it could be more than that (or less)!

Give her a break, for God's sake. We are ALL greedy....thus she must look after the FUND first.....thus the collective "I" will benefit ultimately.

Maybe we are all looking for lurks and perks whereby we can get out with "a leetle bit more" than our fellow investor.

Breaker, THANKS so much for your post from the creditor..It warms my heart in all the negativity.

WE WILL ALL DO BETTER IN THE LONG RUN IF WE BRING POSITIVE ENERGY TO ALL THIS. POSITIVE ENERGY PROMOTES POSITIVE ACTION AND RESULTS.

great dame · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mary Lynch said:
In JH's defence......in these volatile times it must be difficult to give "set in concrete" predictions of future distributions. It's possible that she does not want to put in print anything on which she can't follow up. Thus she says 3% by Xmas (which she "promises".)..but cannot do more than "hope" for an "implied amount" of 1.5% quarterly thereafter....WHO KNOWS, it could be more than that (or less)!

Give her a break, for God's sake. We are ALL greedy....thus she must look after the FUND first.....thus the collective "I" will benefit ultimately.

Maybe we are all looking for lurks and perks whereby we can get out with "a leetle bit more" than our fellow investor.

Breaker, THANKS so much for your post from the creditor..It warms my heart in all the negativity.

WE WILL ALL DO BETTER IN THE LONG RUN IF WE BRING POSITIVE ENERGY TO ALL THIS. POSITIVE ENERGY PROMOTES POSITIVE ACTION AND RESULTS.

Thats all very well what your saying Mary But if you want attract investers to buy our stock on the exchange they will want tro see a forcast of a bit more then just HOPE And remenberi it was wellington idear to list it on the NSX Knowing we will get next to nothing when we try to sell & thats now and in the future also I am not greedy do not want more then my fellow inverstors You might be happy to wait 20 years plus to get your money back if you do it will only be worth half of what it is now But lf i can get half back in 3 years i will be happy Gee i must be greedy hey /The Dame //////

k.smith · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

There is quite a lot of past JH history on their web site and also on the web, and she gives me a impression of someone who makes careful, strategic decisions, and following her career over the last 10 years, I believe she will do her best to build this fund up again. We would all like our monies to be safe, but the world financial markets are in bad shape and things dont look good. A lot of my neighbours are suffering financial losses in their various investments. I think if we hang on to our 45cents+ and have the possibility to add +/-6cents per unit in the short term, JH will do her stuff and build up the fund again, and we will do well again in a few years, I feel sure that she has a strategy behind acquiring our fund, lets face it, there are plenty of other investment opportunities out there at the moment that she could have gone for. As far as the 2% fee re; constitution is concerned, we were paying MFS that in management fees every year(and more!)...WC are charging us 0.7%. I think we either trust JH and vote FOR WC, or believe that liquidation over the next few years will be a better option.

great dame · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Correction i said Mary to wait 20 years plus Should read 30 years plus Sorry about that // The Dame ///

flatback · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Javier said:
I very much doubt it would be only 18 months. An administrator would need to employ a team to oversee the completion of these projects and then make sure they are sold at the right price to maximise value back to the fund. Also funds in other investment schemes need to improve to be sold, noone can say how long that will take given the poor current conditions..18 months seems VERY optimistic..but yes 3-5-7 is do-able and yes it would be a finite workout at least, rather than the Fund going on foreever in a day or until such time as Wellington wish to sell it off or whatever. It would be more controllable under our own destiny.

I do see your point though DnB. Page 19 point 1

"The Fund will (subject to a different resolution in relation to the Constitution being proposed and passed in general meeting) continue to be obliged to redeem units in the fund.

I read the statement in brackets as WC saying, well if we don't get 75% of the vote we may have to call a GM to resolved this, and I really think they would then change the Constitution to allow the mandatory redemption to be removed and try and work a more unit holder friendly strategy. Would they just walk away..I don't believe so as they would still be the RE and be allowed to charge fees, they are not going to cut their nose to spite their collective faces. There is still cash to be made.

Here's the thing though, do we want to bet on that?..'cos if we do, SOMEBODY better have a competent backup RE / administrator ready to take the reins of this fund if WC are only interested in doing it the Frank Sinatra way or the highway.

I believe they may have some doubts now if indeed they can get the 75% vote, and I read between the lines as they may re-negotiate, BUT hell who knows what 10300 odd people are going to do, everyone has a different agenda..very interesting times and an uneasy wait for us all.

I agree whole heartedly Javier, every thing in this world is negotiable, and i personally do not believe this woman is silly enough, to say ok dont vote my way see you later, she is too clever by half, those who are going to the meeting wont just be asked to vote as soon as she comes through the front door, there will be discussion and i imagine very vigorous discussion, a good business person always has a backup alternative proposal.
Cheers Flatback

great dame · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

flatback said:
I agree whole heartedly Javier, every thing in this world is negotiable, and i personally do not believe this woman is silly enough, to say ok dont vote my way see you later, she is too clever by half, those who are going to the meeting wont just be asked to vote as soon as she comes through the front door, there will be discussion and i imagine very vigorous discussion, a good business person always has a backup alternative proposal.
Cheers Flatback

Well thats new to me Flatback When i spoke to WC they told me there would be no discussion or comments from the floor the lady said why bother coming it will be rather boring The vote would have been decided before any of us walked into the room she said it could be all over in 1 to 2 hours / The Dame //

Rance · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mary Lynch said:
I think it would be great if we all united behind her....in fact even sent her some roses on behalf of the AF....lol!

Mary, the flowers are a great idea but don't be too harsh on Great Doom. I understand his angst and he certainly has a point about selling on the NSX for those who need their money now... I'm voting for JH and hope she can pull off some miracles for the sake of us all.

Rance

Burnt · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ! My definition of being POSITIVE is obvioulsy quite different to some others. I don't think it's being very positive at all to launch personal attacks against people who have a different opinion to yourself.
I think it is very positive to have the balls to express your own opinion in spite of what others might think.
I think it is very positive to be open to a wide range of opinions and information. I think it is very positive to allow everyone to express their beliefs, especially when based on sound logic.
It is also plainly evident to me that the Powers To Be (or hope to be) have been applying the old "Divide and Conquer" technique to the enemy, and more forcefully as time runs out. We might be divided but will they let us be conquered ???
My two cents worth is this - be very wary of everything you read and hear. Listen and read it all, but then apply your own intelligence and logic and come to your own conclusions. The only facts we have are that unitholders' money was stolen from them by a group of people that did not disclose true facts to investors and used the fund (ilegally) for their own interests and not for the interests of the investors. Protect yourself from this happening again by arming yourself with as much information as possible, don't just trust what anyone tells you.
And please will you "positive" people stop being to "negative" !!!

newwwtrader · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I have a question for those more knowledgable than myself about this situation.

The current NTA is said to be about 45 cents. On liquidation, it is said that the NTA would be 11cents (or thereabouts).

On my calculations of 770 million units, that equates to a difference of about $260 million.

How is this the case. Surely paying the debts and selling the assets would not amount to a loss of that amount.

Does this amount take into account the unfulfilled redemptions?

JohnH · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

newwwtrader said:
I have a question for those more knowledgable than myself about this situation.

The current NTA is said to be about 45 cents. On liquidation, it is said that the NTA would be 11cents (or thereabouts).

On my calculations of 770 million units, that equates to a difference of about $260 million.

How is this the case. Surely paying the debts and selling the assets would not amount to a loss of that amount.

Does this amount take into account the unfulfilled redemptions?

If we are stupid enough to vote for liquidation then that has to be completed by March(?) next year. Half constructed buildings would have to be sold at bargain rates - It would be a buyer"s market. The 45 cents is based on collecting outstanding debts/or completing and selling developments at optimum time.

Duped · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

newwwtrader said:
I have a question for those more knowledgable than myself about this situation.

The current NTA is said to be about 45 cents. On liquidation, it is said that the NTA would be 11cents (or thereabouts).

On my calculations of 770 million units, that equates to a difference of about $260 million.

How is this the case. Surely paying the debts and selling the assets would not amount to a loss of that amount.

Does this amount take into account the unfulfilled redemptions?

11c (or there abouts) is for liquidation completed by March 09. I.e. forced sale. If we have more time to sell, we'd get more. If the projects are completed first, we'd get more. Just like selling a car or a house.

Thing is:
I've seen nothing that dictates that liquidation must be completed by March 09.
No one seems to know for sure how exactly we go about a more orderly windup. (I.e. how do we appoint a liquidator, how do they get paid, how much time do we allocate to close each position, who chases and how hard do we chase borrowers in default etc etc - who knows what else we have to consider)

ASIC website has some info including an application form for commencing a wind-up. http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Managed investments schemes - closing

What happens? Does WC file Form 5134 and just walk away? Do we have to remove WC first? Then file form 5134 ourselves. How do we pick a liquidator? What terms does the liquidator work under? Is there a peak association for liquidators we can ask?

newwwtrader · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Liquidation does not have to occur in March 2009.

My understanding is that that would only occur IF things were left as they currently are and the current redemptions had to be paid.

Could there not be a constitutional change - whereby possible redemptions are frozen for lets say another 12 months?

This must be able to be done, as it is exactly what WC has proposed (there will be no more redemptions).

If this were to occur, forseeably the amounts available at liquidation would gradually increase.

WC has indicated that the fund may have the ability to commence paying distributions again this year. They also indicated that there would be capital available next year (the funds they are going to use for the buy back). These funds should be available regardless of whether or not the PIF is listed on the NSX.

Redemptions could be frozen for lets say 12 months, then each year you could say that people could withdraw a maximum of lets say 25%. This would give the fund the ability to carry on and complete what they are obligated and continue to run a "business".

I know this is only a sketchy idea, and one I'm sure would have been suggested previously, but I believe that many of the PIF investors would vote for such a constitutional change.

At this time there is only one offer on the table - what has been proposed by WC. The problem is the interests of WC and the PIF unitholders are to some extent poles apart.

JohnH · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
11c (or there abouts) is for liquidation completed by March 09. I.e. forced sale. If we have more time to sell, we'd get more. If the projects are completed first, we'd get more. Just like selling a car or a house.

Thing is:
I've seen nothing that dictates that liquidation must be completed by March 09.
No one seems to know for sure how exactly we go about a more orderly windup. (I.e. how do we appoint a liquidator, how do they get paid, how much time do we allocate to close each position, who chases and how hard do we chase borrowers in default etc etc - who knows what else we have to consider)

ASIC website has some info including an application form for commencing a wind-up. http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/ASIC.NSF/byHeadline/Managed investments schemes - closing

What happens? Does WC file Form 5134 and just walk away? Do we have to remove WC first? Then file form 5134 ourselves. How do we pick a liquidator? What terms does the liquidator work under? Is there a peak association for liquidators we can ask?

Duped, as I understand it (I'm sure more qualified people like Dora&Boots will correct me if I'm wrong) March is when the 366 day redemption freeze is up and the fund has then to start redemptions. There is not enough money in the fund to pay out a $ for a $ so the fund must then liquidate so that every unit holder gets there estimated 11or 12 cents a share equally.

Wellington will make money out of this, but as I see it JH (pity I have the same initials) is staking her (quite formidable) reputation to try and put the Fund back on its feet.

I have followed this thread since the first couple of days, and I have not seen anybody come up with a scheme which will satisfy everybody. At least Wellington's proposals give something to everybody. It will not please all, but I can't understand how the liquidation alternative would please anybody.

professor_frink · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

ATTENTION ALL

The admin team here are becoming increasingly annoyed at how many people who seem to only be here to participate in this thread are breaking the rules of the forum by signing up multiple accounts. I made an announcement in one of the other threads about this recently -

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6397

but it has been ignored, so I thought I would make a post here so that there can be no confusion about where we stand on this issue.

People caught using multiple accounts will be banned immediately.

If we continue to get people signing up multiple accounts to post in this thread, then we will shut it down.

Enjoy your evening.

sugar3157 · 22 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

professor_frink said:
ATTENTION ALL

The admin team here are becoming increasingly annoyed at how many people who seem to only be here to participate in this thread are breaking the rules of the forum by signing up multiple accounts. I made an announcement in one of the other threads about this recently -

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6397

but it has been ignored, so I thought I would make a post here so that there can be no confusion about where we stand on this issue.

People caught using multiple accounts will be banned immediately.

If we continue to get people signing up multiple accounts to post in this thread, then we will shut it down.

Enjoy your evening.

Who are you?

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Wolfgang

Jadel

great dame

seamisty

selciper

Mary Lynch

great dame

k.smith

great dame

flatback

great dame

Rance

Burnt

newwwtrader

JohnH

Duped

newwwtrader

JohnH

professor_frink

Moderator

sugar3157

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