O come off it It must deplete the fund by 5% of asserts The Dame //Duped, I wouldn't say that the $17mill of PIF's income used to buyback the 5% of shares will be walking out the door, in my opinion it will strengthen the value of the remaining units in the Fund. It will also give hardship cases access to some money. Seamisty
Dame, I know you are extremely frustrated, we all are. To be perfectly honest, even if the liquidation price at firesale prices is 20-40cents per unit, I don't care as I am not prepared to accept that. The maximum value of PIF assets will not be realised in this economic climate. One thing I have learnt in the business world of making money, is don't panic in a downturn. Buy low and sell high, you as a share trader should know that only too well. I never, ever sell at a loss!!! If I can't afford to sit on an asset which has the possibility of going back in value at some stage, I don't buy it or invest in it. It works for me. SeamistySeamisty can you say in all honstley that it is only worth omly 14 cents if iquidationed well i dont agree with you JH is telling Centerlink it is worth 45 cents on market value And we all know just what market value is dont we The Dame //
Dame I am suprised you have any money at all!!! It is no different to a redemption except unit holders are only going to get 45cents as opposed to $1.00 for their unit.If the units are worth more than 45cents as many are of the opinion of, then that extra value stays in the PIF and is absorbed into the value of the remaining units. The smart people will be those that don't take up the offer! SeamistyO come off it It must deplete the fund by 5% of asserts The Dame //
...One thing I have learnt in the business world of making money, is don't panic in a downturn. Buy low and sell high, you as a share trader should know that only too well. I never, ever sell at a loss!!! ...
Dora I just don't see the sense in taking a loss then re-investing the the much reduced capital at a similar rate of return it will be achieving if it remains in the PIF with the potential to increase in value.Circumstances may be different for some, but capital gains/losses have little impact on those that have invested through self managed super funds and draw their own allocated pensions.In a couple of years once the Fund has stabilised I would expect the unit price will be trading at similar values you would hope to achieve through an orderly wind up which may not suit holders who wish to stay in the Fund. SeamistyI never sell shares in a down market either (unless the company is going down due to mismanagement). I wait till the market turns to sell. This is a different concept to winding the PIF up with an orderly windup. JH herself has said the existing assets should be realised within 12 to 18 months. So within 3 years I’m sure all the PIFs assets will be completely new investments. Your theory of staying in the fund to allow the existing assets to gain value dose not make sense if the existing asset will be sold\finished within 12 to 18 months. I know it’s hard to take a capital loss on paper but that would be the only difference between an orderly wind up and keeping the fund going. In one case you will see the capital loss and have to show your accountant, in the other case you can pretend it hasn’t happened and wait 10 years for the units to be worth $1.1 on the NSX\ASX and sell for a ‘gain’. (which of course isn’t a good if you put in one dollar 10 years ago and only come out with $1.1) I think people who don’t like the idea of a listed fund or need to get out within the next 7 years should consider an orderly windup\moratorium.
Dora I just don't see the sense in taking a loss then re-investing the the much reduced capital at a similar rate of return it will be achieving if it remains in the PIF with the potential to increase in value.Circumstances may be different for some, but capital gains/losses have little impact on those that have invested through self managed super funds and draw their own allocated pensions.In a couple of years once the Fund has stabilised I would expect the unit price will be trading at similar values you would hope to achieve through an orderly wind up which may not suit holders who wish to stay in the Fund. Seamisty
Duped, I wouldn't say that the $17mill of PIF's income used to buyback the 5% of shares will be walking out the door, in my opinion it will strengthen the value of the remaining units in the Fund. It will also give hardship cases access to some money. Seamisty
Winging Dame here again I am surprised none of you good people have not picked up on the proxy voting they are to be returned to Wellington for counting Now i really think that is wrong for them to do the counting They will know what each unit holder name & what they are voting for And if they don't like whats on the proxy vote Well i will leave that up to you Remember staff want to keep there jobs It should be counted by outsiders The Dame //
O my god give me a bit on nounce i am not that dumb I know when to buy & sell I am not talking about a fire sale only a fool would want that Liquidation over a 2 to 3 years is the way to go with payments a long the way you then invest your payments as you receive them in growth investments you must win then in the end If we go your way this could happen Say you get the value of the units up to say 90 cents maybe in 6 years so off you go to to stockbroker to try & sell them on the NSX As a rough guess you may get at the most 60 cents So much for your upside HEY O yes you going to say I got 6% A 6 cent div along the to 6 years Gee Whiz big deal a whopping 6% I would be looking at no less then 8% plus growth What your hoping is maybe it could happen WC is not giving any for casts EPS Cant say i blame them for that Because they don't have any BY for now The Dame //Dame, I know you are extremely frustrated, we all are. To be perfectly honest, even if the liquidation price at fire sale prices is 20-cents per unit, I don't care as I am not prepared to accept that. The maximum value of PIF assets will not be realized in this economic climate. One thing I have learnt in the business world of making money, is don't panic in a downturn. Buy low and sell high, you as a share trader should know that only too well. I never, ever sell at a loss!!! If I can't afford to sit on an asset which has the possibility of going back in value at some stage, I don't buy it or invest in it. It works for me. Seamisty
Seamisty when the fund is listed say it selling for 20 cents Now that is what the fund is worth it dose not mater what the value of the fund is ITS ONLY WORTH WHAT SOMEONE WILL PAY FOR IT so we say 20 cents Thats a mighty 80% loss it would have to grow 500% to get to a Dollar on the exchange It has got as much chance as a snow ball surviving in hell in getting half way there Seamisty just look back in history if you don't believe me Cheers The Dame//////Dame I am suprised you have any money at all!!! It is no different to a redemption except unit holders are only going to get cents as opposed to $1.00 for their unit.If the units are worth more than cents as many are of the opinion of, then that extra value stays in the PIF and is absorbed into the value of the remaining units. The smart people will be those that don't take up the offer! Seamisty
Thanks JohnH, I rest my case!!!Seamisty.......... 6 cents on 45 cents is 13.3% return ........not too many places you can get that at the moment.......JH
Seamisty as said i buy & sell shares for a living I sell at a crtain price & i have a stop loss on all my shares also I have found when a share goes down below my stop loss it takes a hell of a time to recover I can not see for the love of me the fund ever recovering to dollar again on the exchange I know Property Trusts have dropped about 35% But this is a monster 80% drop Some times its better to cut you losers and move on /The Dame /Dora I just don't see the sense in taking a loss then re-investing the the much reduced capital at a similar rate of return it will be achieving if it remains in the PIF with the potential to increase in value.Circumstances may be different for some, but capital gains/losses have little impact on those that have invested through self managed super funds and draw their own allocated pensions.In a couple of years once the Fund has stabilised I would expect the unit price will be trading at similar values you would hope to achieve through an orderly wind up which may not suit holders who wish to stay in the Fund. Seamisty
Thanks PIFHolder tat was good of you As the ADD says I FEEL BETTER NOW The Dame /Great Dame,
I just spoke with WC who advised that Computershare are counting the votes, but that they are using the reply paid facilities of WC because it's less expensive and more efficient.
Cheers
PIFholder
Its 6 cents on 20 cents is better still at 30% return JohnH your getting 6% on your dollar invested that is only worth 20 cents next month The Dame //Seamisty.......... 6 cents on 45 cents is 13.3% return ........not too many places you can get that at the moment.......JH
Dora can you give us the web address to get the above form thanks The Dame //I’m certain our units are worth more than 45 cents. JH herself says “ we have some good assets that if sold at the right time will sell for more than the 45 cent in the dollar”. This means we would get more than 45 cents in an orderly windup. It also means the 6 cent return per unit is not 13%. You can see from the loan book they are only bringing in 11% for the commercial loans. Has anyone looked into how JH plans to restore the unit price back to $1? JH proposed 55% of the fund will be assets with no capital growth (I.E 45% commercial loans and 10% cash). This means the remaining 45% of the fund will need to generate 40% returns to achieve JHs goals. What kind of risks will she be taking for those gains or perhaps the 45 cent valuation is way off.
I know an orderly wind up is not currently an option but I think if investors wanted this option that JH would have to put our interests before hers and give us this option. She said she doesn't want to do anything most of us don't want. The Corp Act says the RE must ") act in the best interests of the members and, if there is a conflict between the members’ interests and its own interests, give priority to the members’ interests". It's fine for the people that are happy to stay in for the long term (those that like to have 45% exposure to commercial loans) but WCs proposal provides no appropriate option for people who want or need to get out.
I have spoken to ASIC and if you consider WCs proposal to be putting their interest before ours then write a complaint using the online form and mark it urgent requiring attention before Sept 18. I am doing this but urge others to as well if you are of the same opinion.
Don’t forget if WC doesn’t get the vote it will be up to us to figure out how to make sure the fund isn’t liquidated before March 31st 2009, WC are providing no assistant with this at present which I find very irresponsible
Dora can you give us the web address to get the above form thanks The Dame //
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