Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Good point regarding the %. I agree that the 60M units held by MFSM P/L probably didn't breech the PIF constitution/PDS. But it certainly smells of financial engineering, window dressing the reports and probably did damage to the fund.
Following is not directed at U DoraNBoots
The chart shows PIF growth flatlining for the previous 6 months. This looks very bad. Not good for confidence in the fund. (I recall that MFS cut the rate of commissions from PIF to financial planners around the start of that flat line period? Co-incidence?????)
Then hello, there's a spike of around 60M units and MFSIM puts the chart on page 1 of the Investor Update. Looks great. Then they bury the fact that MFS Management bought 60M units in page 52 of the Annual Report, issued nearly 3 months later.
I hear you say: so what; it was for the good of the fund. Well, I'm sure you won't find accord with those who subsequently invested or re-invested based on this engineered info.
What did MFS IM do with the $60M cash injection into PIF? It was only in there for, apparently, 10 weeks. Enough time for it to be invested? When the 60M left PIF it took with it 10.5% p/a and hence weakened the fund by another $1.18M. And that was CASH!!!!
Did the $60M injection generate new business? Or was it just used to pay out the incoming growing pile of redemption requests that I believe MFSIM had been receiving since Feb 07 when it cut the rates of commissions to financial planners. Wasn't that what the $50M support facility was for? Of the estimated 125M redemptions between Jun07 and Jan08 how many of the 65M Non-MFSM P/L redemptions were lodged before Jun07?
Fund size reported in the Investor Updates:
Jun07 $880M
Jul07 $844M
Aug07 $808M
Sep07 $796M
Oct07 $787M
Nov07 $781M
Dec07 $770M
Jan08 $754M
Feb08 755M units ($890M-$184M debt=$706M)
I believe that if the 60M unit MFS M P/L scam wasn't played then PIF would have been frozen long before MFS Ltd had a chance to plunder the $147.5M. If the scam was legal then it makes a mockery of the Australian financial reporting requirements. The Jun 07 investor update was deceptive.
Of course none of this is WC's fault and we'd only be hurting PIF by taking action against the current RE. But if the scam was illegal and the individuals can't be pursued (and they can continue playing polo) then it makes a mockery of our corporate legal system as well.
Good point regarding the %. I agree that the 60M units held by MFSM P/L probably didn't breech the PIF constitution/PDS. But it certainly smells of financial engineering, window dressing the reports and probably did damage to the fund.
Following is not directed at U DoraNBoots
The chart shows PIF growth flatlining for the previous 6 months. This looks very bad. Not good for confidence in the fund. (I recall that MFS cut the rate of commissions from PIF to financial planners around the start of that flat line period? Co-incidence?????)
Then hello, there's a spike of around 60M units and MFSIM puts the chart on page 1 of the Investor Update. Looks great. Then they bury the fact that MFS Management bought 60M units in page 52 of the Annual Report, issued nearly 3 months later.
I hear you say: so what; it was for the good of the fund. Well, I'm sure you won't find accord with those who subsequently invested or re-invested based on this engineered info.
What did MFS IM do with the $60M cash injection into PIF? It was only in there for, apparently, 10 weeks. Enough time for it to be invested? When the 60M left PIF it took with it 10.5% p/a and hence weakened the fund by another $1.18M. And that was CASH!!!!
Did the $60M injection generate new business? Or was it just used to pay out the incoming growing pile of redemption requests that I believe MFSIM had been receiving since Feb 07 when it cut the rates of commissions to financial planners. Wasn't that what the $50M support facility was for? Of the estimated 125M redemptions between Jun07 and Jan08 how many of the 65M Non-MFSM P/L redemptions were lodged before Jun07?
Fund size reported in the Investor Updates:
Jun07 $880M
Jul07 $844M
Aug07 $808M
Sep07 $796M
Oct07 $787M
Nov07 $781M
Dec07 $770M
Jan08 $754M
Feb08 755M units ($890M-$184M debt=$706M)
I believe that if the 60M unit MFS M P/L scam wasn't played then PIF would have been frozen long before MFS Ltd had a chance to plunder the $147.5M. If the scam was legal then it makes a mockery of the Australian financial reporting requirements. The Jun 07 investor update was deceptive.
Of course none of this is WC's fault and we'd only be hurting PIF by taking action against the current RE. But if the scam was illegal and the individuals can't be pursued (and they can continue playing polo) then it makes a mockery of our corporate legal system as well.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Thanks DoraNBoots,
Still reading the document - it's big!
At least there's the detail in this so that investors know what the assets are
A good thing for investors is that WC is setting up an Investor Advisory Committee - at least we will get representation in that regard. You get to nominate on the proxy.
Thanks DoraNBoots,
Still reading the document - it's big!
At least there's the detail in this so that investors know what the assets areA good thing for investors is that WC is setting up an Investor Advisory Committee - at least we will get representation in that regard. You get to nominate on the proxy.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
The following appeared in today's AFR.
The following appeared in today's AFR.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
What have i been saying since i have been involved with this forum, have alook at all of my threads 1701,1649 etc,etc,etc, they all revolve around two issues CONSTITUTION, and NSX, dont you people understand?? the constitutional changes which were made, is the reason we are in this mess,up until reading the thread about the up comeing meeting and changes to the constitution which are being proposed by Jenny Hutson and her company,i fully supported her.
After reading what she now proposes, she can take her red shirt and shove it where it hurts, have any of you ever seen a more one sided proposal ???, there is definately an outward appearence being portrayed by this woman and her company that we are idiots, and we will be told what to do and how to do it.
My view for what its worth , we should reject her proposals as presented and come back with something that has something in it for us, THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG do not except this at face value.
Most of my threads here, have been to try to maintain some positivity to the discussions in this forum, ive read some very funny and some times very silly threads on here, and to those of you who have contributed either way it was good to read at times, but the time to put this woman in her place ( remember she is only the RE she can be removed) this fund belongs to us the unit holders. I would have thought that it was unconstitutional in any form of business, that all members were not able to get their hands on a copy of the constitution to become conversant with its contents.
VERY ANGRY flatback
What have i been saying since i have been involved with this forum, have alook at all of my threads 1701,1649 etc,etc,etc, they all revolve around two issues CONSTITUTION, and NSX, dont you people understand?? the constitutional changes which were made, is the reason we are in this mess,up until reading the thread about the up comeing meeting and changes to the constitution which are being proposed by Jenny Hutson and her company,i fully supported her.
After reading what she now proposes, she can take her red shirt and shove it where it hurts, have any of you ever seen a more one sided proposal ???, there is definately an outward appearence being portrayed by this woman and her company that we are idiots, and we will be told what to do and how to do it.
My view for what its worth , we should reject her proposals as presented and come back with something that has something in it for us, THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG do not except this at face value.
Most of my threads here, have been to try to maintain some positivity to the discussions in this forum, ive read some very funny and some times very silly threads on here, and to those of you who have contributed either way it was good to read at times, but the time to put this woman in her place ( remember she is only the RE she can be removed) this fund belongs to us the unit holders. I would have thought that it was unconstitutional in any form of business, that all members were not able to get their hands on a copy of the constitution to become conversant with its contents.
VERY ANGRY flatback
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
WCL can only charge this 2%, if we do not vote yes to option 3, then the RE will continue to be WIML and not WCL. So don't vote yes to the third proposal, so that WCL does not get the required 50% of the vote to change the RE, in effect you get the same deal and it won't cost the fund 2% down the track if JH doesn't work out and there needs to be an RE change.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Well I think our views were heard before this document was written but I don't see any evidence they were taken into consideration! Not sure how effective an Investor Advisory Committee will be if the views are ignored.
Who's going to want to vote yes for Wellintong Capital to be RE if it means we've got to pay them up to $15 mill to get rid of them if we decide there is a better option. Are they serious?
How can JH think the buy back scheme will influence us (see news article)when the average investor has $70,000 in this fund. Who wants $60,000 on the NSX forever?
Can those that have said JH will provide other options or that they were working with WC on other options please explain!
Thanks DoraNBoots,
Still reading the document - it's big!
A good thing for investors is that WC is setting up an Investor Advisory Committee - at least we will get representation in that regard. You get to nominate on the proxy.
Well I think our views were heard before this document was written but I don't see any evidence they were taken into consideration! Not sure how effective an Investor Advisory Committee will be if the views are ignored.
Who's going to want to vote yes for Wellintong Capital to be RE if it means we've got to pay them up to $15 mill to get rid of them if we decide there is a better option. Are they serious?
How can JH think the buy back scheme will influence us (see news article)when the average investor has $70,000 in this fund. Who wants $60,000 on the NSX forever?
Can those that have said JH will provide other options or that they were working with WC on other options please explain!
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Of course it's one sided. That is because it is necessary to keep as much in the fund for as long as possible. What people don't seem to understand is that the fund they invested in is at the moment broken. It is ILLIQUID, it cannot pay you what you want and when you want it. It needs time to rebuild.
Just how busted up remains uncertain, and I believe we need further transparency of that, hopefully when PWC completes the audit. The NSX was always going to be the way out for people needing their money now at whatever price, that is really unfortunate and I hope they can get as close to the net asset backed price as possible.
If you have the luxury of time and can hang on for the better times 3-7 years, this fund will be listed on the ASX, it will be a hell of a lot heathier and will be...LIQUID again and pretty much by then trading at it's true net asset backing as well as provide investors with a better return. The market in general will by then be very much on the mend.
WC has to take this harsh regime now in order to do what it has embarked upon doing. NSX is a short term fix. Buy back is a short term fix. The long term viability is paramount, the rewards are a long way off. You can't please everyone, but hey, JH did not get this fund in a mess..so don't shoot the messenger!
Of course it's one sided. That is because it is necessary to keep as much in the fund for as long as possible. What people don't seem to understand is that the fund they invested in is at the moment broken. It is ILLIQUID, it cannot pay you what you want and when you want it. It needs time to rebuild.
Just how busted up remains uncertain, and I believe we need further transparency of that, hopefully when PWC completes the audit. The NSX was always going to be the way out for people needing their money now at whatever price, that is really unfortunate and I hope they can get as close to the net asset backed price as possible.
If you have the luxury of time and can hang on for the better times 3-7 years, this fund will be listed on the ASX, it will be a hell of a lot heathier and will be...LIQUID again and pretty much by then trading at it's true net asset backing as well as provide investors with a better return. The market in general will by then be very much on the mend.
WC has to take this harsh regime now in order to do what it has embarked upon doing. NSX is a short term fix. Buy back is a short term fix. The long term viability is paramount, the rewards are a long way off. You can't please everyone, but hey, JH did not get this fund in a mess..so don't shoot the messenger!
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
RickH, as a financial planner you would be more familiar with PDSs and constitutions than us investors. How does the New PIF compare to equivalent, competing funds. I expect the clauses about PIF pays legal costs are fairly standard. Can you confirm this? Or have I misunderstood the role of financial planners?
RickH, as a financial planner you would be more familiar with PDSs and constitutions than us investors. How does the New PIF compare to equivalent, competing funds. I expect the clauses about PIF pays legal costs are fairly standard. Can you confirm this? Or have I misunderstood the role of financial planners?
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Where are you getting your info from Javier? Now you tell us the “fund will be listed on the ASX”. ..“ then trading at it's true net asset backing” Wonder if it was the same person that helped you conclude that Great Dame was lying?(sorry GD I know you weren't) None of what you have said is in the documentation so please clarify your statements.
I think it's only necessary for the PIF to keep our funds for as long as it takes for the current investments to be realised. That sure isn't 7 years. Anyone else want a moratorium\work out\orderly wind up? I'm not saying it's possible I just want to know who would prefer this over the current offer. Surely if most wanted it we could push for it.
Where are you getting your info from Javier? Now you tell us the “fund will be listed on the ASX”. ..“ then trading at it's true net asset backing” Wonder if it was the same person that helped you conclude that Great Dame was lying?(sorry GD I know you weren't) None of what you have said is in the documentation so please clarify your statements.
I think it's only necessary for the PIF to keep our funds for as long as it takes for the current investments to be realised. That sure isn't 7 years. Anyone else want a moratorium\work out\orderly wind up? I'm not saying it's possible I just want to know who would prefer this over the current offer. Surely if most wanted it we could push for it.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Javis as a rough guess i would say Over 50& of unit holder do not have thaat luxuary of time ..The Dame
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Then if you don't..sell your units either now, or when you are comfortable with the NSX price. Like I said not all will be happy. Everyone has their own agenda based on time they can hang on for. If you are happy taking the 6c per unit and hang in there fine, which is what most people where doing anyway prior to this debacle.
I have a very good source that has stated to me that this fund will listed on the ASX as the way of exit as soon as the fund has a respectable NTA. What is the point of ASX now..we need stability now.
I don't wish to disclose who that person is, but trust me, it's not some clerk at Wellington. If all goes well expect PIF to be a listed fund. We need to vote FOR option 1 in that proxy Amendment of the Constitution for the Fund. That is the start. Option 2 and 3 are up to you, but definitely put a cross in FOR in option1.
Then if you don't..sell your units either now, or when you are comfortable with the NSX price. Like I said not all will be happy. Everyone has their own agenda based on time they can hang on for. If you are happy taking the 6c per unit and hang in there fine, which is what most people where doing anyway prior to this debacle.
I have a very good source that has stated to me that this fund will listed on the ASX as the way of exit as soon as the fund has a respectable NTA. What is the point of ASX now..we need stability now.
I don't wish to disclose who that person is, but trust me, it's not some clerk at Wellington. If all goes well expect PIF to be a listed fund. We need to vote FOR option 1 in that proxy Amendment of the Constitution for the Fund. That is the start. Option 2 and 3 are up to you, but definitely put a cross in FOR in option1.
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
JH said in an article that over 95% of investors in the PIF are over 65. (I’m not saying 65 is old!) And then there are the people that needed to actually use the money to buy a house etc etc etc. and then there are people like me who just want out of this thing in the shortest time possible (without fire sale etc) and I don't see the current plan giving me any reasonable out at all (even in 5 years!).
Javier: Even if JH herself told you the fund will be listed on the ASX it don't mean it will happen or that we'll get close to the NTA back.
JH said in an article that over 95% of investors in the PIF are over 65. (I’m not saying 65 is old!
) And then there are the people that needed to actually use the money to buy a house etc etc etc. and then there are people like me who just want out of this thing in the shortest time possible (without fire sale etc) and I don't see the current plan giving me any reasonable out at all (even in 5 years!).Javier: Even if JH herself told you the fund will be listed on the ASX it don't mean it will happen or that we'll get close to the NTA back.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
I disagree with you Dora, I have thought that ASX down the track will be the only way out for a little while now. Various planners I have spoken with, who have clients' funds in PIF also agree with that. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I guess time will tell all, won't it?
The landscape has changed, rules are changing and we have to realise that the fund we initially invested in is being force to morph into a completely different animal. I can understand the frustration that people have, especially more senior people who hate change, but that is the reliality of our situation.
I disagree with you Dora, I have thought that ASX down the track will be the only way out for a little while now. Various planners I have spoken with, who have clients' funds in PIF also agree with that. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I guess time will tell all, won't it?
The landscape has changed, rules are changing and we have to realise that the fund we initially invested in is being force to morph into a completely different animal. I can understand the frustration that people have, especially more senior people who hate change, but that is the reliality of our situation.
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
As for the audit which is still ongoing, i will use a very simple analogy, if i was going to buy a car and i was not mechanicaly minded, i would have to rely upon someone to evaluate (AUDIT) the car for me, and i would have rocks in my head if i didn't. NOBODY from our group or for that matter anybody else,has been privy to the outcome of such audit, (i know its not finished) my point is in the analogy used.
Still angry flatback
Javier lets you and i get something straight here once and for all, there isn't and never was a concrete cast in stone statement made by JH that we would have the ability to redeem our units via the ASX, now haveing said that, because you are so sure of this, why cant JH come out and say to us the unit holders, this is what i propose to do once we become liquid again,to put all of our minds at rest.(If she does this i will be the first to vote her way)
As for the audit which is still ongoing, i will use a very simple analogy, if i was going to buy a car and i was not mechanicaly minded, i would have to rely upon someone to evaluate (AUDIT) the car for me, and i would have rocks in my head if i didn't. NOBODY from our group or for that matter anybody else,has been privy to the outcome of such audit, (i know its not finished) my point is in the analogy used.
Still angry flatback
Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Nothing at this point, apart from NSX is set in stone. Think about it..why should she tell us what her exact plans are. I am sure she will, but we haven't even voted for her yet. You have to be patient. Things sometimes turn ugly very quickly, but take a long time to restore to normality. One step at a time. We all want a quick fix and all the answers now. Hopefully we will see that restoration, but that is a while away.
She is not just going to take this on without a long term committed strategy to make this a mutually successful venture, to tear her reputation to shreds. Of course she believes she can turn it around, or else she would not bother. I guess in life we have to sometimes take a leap of faith, what do you have to lose at this point in time??
Nothing at this point, apart from NSX is set in stone. Think about it..why should she tell us what her exact plans are. I am sure she will, but we haven't even voted for her yet. You have to be patient. Things sometimes turn ugly very quickly, but take a long time to restore to normality. One step at a time. We all want a quick fix and all the answers now. Hopefully we will see that restoration, but that is a while away.
She is not just going to take this on without a long term committed strategy to make this a mutually successful venture, to tear her reputation to shreds. Of course she believes she can turn it around, or else she would not bother. I guess in life we have to sometimes take a leap of faith, what do you have to lose at this point in time??
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
Well Well Well Has not The Dame ME being saying all the time JH sure wants us all tired up tightly And in the bag the lot of us Sure she says you can get out any time you want Sell your stuff for next to nothing on the NSX She sure knows how to cover her back I just wonder how may good folk have now come round to the Dames way of thinking now We all should take notice of DoraN Boots posts Now there is a person who knows what He or She is talking about BYE The Dame PS FOOT NOTE Our units will be slaughtered when they are listed on the NSX ////
Well Well Well Has not The Dame ME being saying all the time JH sure wants us all tired up tightly And in the bag the lot of us Sure she says you can get out any time you want Sell your stuff for next to nothing on the NSX She sure knows how to cover her back I just wonder how may good folk have now come round to the Dames way of thinking now We all should take notice of DoraN Boots posts Now there is a person who knows what He or She is talking about BYE The Dame PS FOOT NOTE Our units will be slaughtered when they are listed on the NSX ////
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
But i guess all you true believers will stay the distance even if it takes 10 or 12 years The Dame //
Hey i thought JH is a Lawyer not some sort of investor Guru
But i guess all you true believers will stay the distance even if it takes 10 or 12 years The Dame //
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Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF
You will get it back quicker if you read DoreNboots posts Dora puts words together better then me The Dame //
