Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It is also my understanding, based on the information supplied in the full colour, glossy propaganda sheets distributed by Wellington, that the management fee proposed by WC (subject to prior consent of unitholders !!), is 0.7% of the Funds under Management. It is not performance based.
Granted, it is probably less than the fees charged by MFS/Octaviar, but let's face it, they just robbed and rorted the fund so why set that as benchmark.
God it's good to get all this off my chest !!
My opinions are based on all the information I have been able to gather and I would like to know if others see things as I do. I truely believe that these people who have had their fingers in the PIF pie will only leave crumbs at the end of the day if they are left to continue to have any sort of control - directly or indirectly. The PIF needs to be taken out of their hands and placed into the hands of either unitholders (wouldn't that be nice) or a totally independant administrator.
Let me put it this way - in a story :-
A guy I knew and thought I could trust, stole my wallet with $10,000 in it. I met his girlfriend, she seems "nice", has a good "reputation", and she told me that she was really smart and if I gave her $70 she would use all her skills to get all my money back. Hmmmm....what should I do ?
a) Give her the $70 and trust her to get all (or most) of my money back;
b) Go to the police and fill out a report and hope they do something;
c) Pay $100 to a private investigator who will track the guy down and find out how much money or other assets he's got so as to recover as much of my money as he can for me.
Which answer would logically give me the best outcome ???

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:

Let me put it this way - in a story:
A guy I knew and thought I could trust, stole my wallet with $10,000 in it. I met his girlfriend, she seems "nice", has a good "reputation", and she told me that she was really smart and if I gave her $70 she would use all her skills to get all my money back. Hmmmm....what should I do ?
a) Give her the $70 and trust her to get all (or most) of my money back;
b) Go to the police and fill out a report and hope they do something;
c) Pay $100 to a private investigator who will track the guy down and find out how much money or other assets he's got so as to recover as much of my money as he can for me.
Which answer would logically give me the best outcome ???

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Burnt... you tell a good story... but in that story it's your wallet, your $10,000, your 'trusted' friend so the answer is up to you... how could you trust me to give you an honest answer? You don't even know me..

By the way, in the story do you get the girl? I like a happy ending.

Rance

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:

... - in a story :-
A guy I knew and thought I could trust, stole my wallet with $10,000 in it. I met his girlfriend, she seems "nice", has a good "reputation", and she told me that she was really smart and if I gave her $70 she would use all her skills to get all my money back. Hmmmm....what should I do ?
a) Give her the $70 and trust her to get all (or most) of my money back;
b) Go to the police and fill out a report and hope they do something;
c) Pay $100 to a private investigator who will track the guy down and find out how much money or other assets he's got so as to recover as much of my money as he can for me.
Which answer would logically give me the best outcome ???

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Well, if you're careless enough to leave your money lying around and silly (or desperate) enough to pay someone $70 to screw you, I guess you need a minder more than a PI ...

Rick Mason

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Burnt...I agree with everything you have said...I just want to know if you have money in PIF too?

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:

Only the noteholders can vote Sugar, Ocv need a 50% + vote to stop the company from going into immediate liquidation. I would think they will romp it in because creditors will benefit more by the offer already put foward to them from OCV than from a firesale liquidation in my opinion.Don't forget that the PIF has only officially had $50mill legally aknowledged as OCV debt, the remaining $147mill has been recognised by OCV but not legally registered. If OCV is liquidated PIF will more than likely only receive 11.8cents in the dollar on the $50mill, that is why WC has been fighting so hard against liquidation of OCV. Regards, Seamisty

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Hi Seamisty...just wondering why the $147 m hasn't been legally registered?

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

gazzan57 said:

Hi Burnt...I agree with everything you have said...I just want to know if you have money in PIF too?

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Hi Gazzan, I represent my father, who like many of the investors is quite elderly (& computer illiterate), which is why I am so angry about the way this fund has been managed & operated. Elderly people don't ask that many questions and are easily fobbed off and treated like idiots. They've had there savings stolen from them at a time in their lives when they need it most.

Sorry for those that didn't like my story, thought everyone could relate to the scenario. You know - misplaced faith & trust winning out against facts & logic.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This appeared in Sydney Morning Herald.
link: http://business.smh.com.au/business...rs-with-languishing-prices-20080812-3u81.html
----------------------------
Octaviar high jinks

The fun continues at Octaviar, the Queensland property disaster - sorry, developer - formerly known as MFS.

It seems that the Public Trustee of Queensland is fighting attempts to dislodge it as trustee for Octaviar's noteholders, and is going ahead with plans to have Octaviar wound up. This is not good for Octaviar's new managers, who have proposed a settlement with creditors - owed nearly $1 billion by the group - that would pay out 22.5c in the dollar for most creditors and up to 100 per cent of claims by small investors. According to Octaviar's chief executive, Chris Scott, creditors would receive 13.9c in the dollar if the company was put into liquidation. Octaviar is holding a vote to remove the trustee on September 3, just ahead of the trustee's plans to front the courts on September 9 to remove Octaviar's management and wind up the company.

----------------------------

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

gazzan57 said:

Hi Seamisty...just wondering why the $147 m hasn't been legally registered?

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At the Brisbane Meeting JH stated that the registration was in process. I actualy thought this had happened by now.
Surely if this hasn't happened it is an absolute priority.

The next couple of weeks to August 29th is crucial for the PIF. The final outcome of negotiations by JH with OCV (if in fact any negotiations are taking place) will be a strong indicator as to the truthfulness of the PIF being managed faithfully in our (the investors) best interest.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:

Sorry for those that didn't like my story, thought everyone could relate to the scenario. You know - misplaced faith & trust winning out against facts & logic.

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Sorry Burnt (about your story) It's just that some of us are tired of the many "stories" told on this thread eg. guesses, "second guesses", suppositions, assumptions, opinions, etc etc not necessarily based on facts... Still, having said that, I guess (yes, I'm "guessing" now) it's a way of letting off steam...

Rance

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Welcome Burnt, keep posting!

The following was sent by email, all opinions welcome...

I and my wife are among the many unfortunates that have a large chunk of their lives evaporating in front of our eyes in the form of the Premium Income Fund investments. We attended the Sydney meeting, after which we felt somewhat more hopeful. However, since then we have heard nothing to reinforce that faint hope. The Q & A booklet sent to us from Wellington does nothing to lift our confidence. We distinctly remember an undertaking from Jenny Hutson that the listing of the Premium Income Fund on the NSX would not occour. It appears form this latest document that it is still very much on the agenda and reading between the lines, it is clear that Wellington is DETERMINED that this will go ahead. We find the booklet confusing as we don't really understand what the responsibilities are of the various parts of the Wellington group and how they relate to each other and the Premium Income Fund. I have a couple of specific questions that I would like answered, and if anyone can help I would be greatful.

1. If the PIF is listed on the stock exchange does that mean that we will never be able to redeem our investment from Wellington but instead only be able to sell them on the stock market.
Wellinton repeats (in the booklet) ad nauseum that no one HAS to sell but they make no mention of whether or not our holdings will ever be redeemable from Wellington (in the event of the listing going ahead.)
If that is the case, then we would oppose any move to list and hope that others would also.
2. Do I understand correctly from the booklet that, as things stand right now, there is still the possibility of Octaviar will place the PIF into receivership and Wellington cannot stop them.
We would like to get answers to these questions if possible, but, in any case would like to hear opinions and comments from others.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Gee its wonderful to read the postings from BURNT I just wish i could put words together as well as you Please keep them coming i realy injoy reading the truth in what you say Keep them coming Great Dame //////

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

great dame said:

Gee its wonderful to read the postings from BURNT I just wish i could put words together as well as you Please keep them coming i realy injoy reading the truth in what you say Keep them coming Great Dame //////

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yes I agree....but alas it doesn't get our money back....

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

gazzan57 said:

Hi Seamisty...just wondering why the $147 m hasn't been legally registered?

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I will check with WC again Gazzan, I was given that info a couple of weeks ago. It was something to do with a time frame of when creditors had to have had lodged the claims.It seems that if in the event that OCV don't have the PTQ removed as trustee and put an end to the wind-up action, they will go into voluntary liquidation. This being the case, OCV will recognize the total amount of PIF debt.
Seamisty:::::::::::Octaviar showdown after Trustee about-face::::::Nick Nichols

August 13th, 2008

OCTAVIAR is likely to go into voluntary liquidation rather than wait for a court order if creditors fail to accept a proposed cash settlement for its $1 billion debt.

Company director Chris Scott last night said Octaviar had two more chances over the next three weeks to convince noteholders that liquidation would give them less than the payout offer already on the table.

The news came as the Public Trustee of Queensland (PTQ) reversed its decision last year to quit as trustee, a move that has stunned directors of the embattled Gold Coast company formerly known as MFS.

After launching a bid to wind up Octaviar in June, the PTQ signalled it would be stepping aside from the role of acting on behalf of 560 Octaviar noteholders owed a total of $351 million.

The resignation notice was lodged late last year but the turmoil that engulfed MFS kept incoming trustee Trust Company of Australia on ice.

The reasons for PTQ's decision to stay on as trustee were not clear last night. A spokesman could not be contacted for comment.

The Trust Company of Australia also could not shed any light on the issue. A spokesman said the Trust Company could not comment because it was not trustee of the notes.

But Octaviar has come out with guns blazing, calling a meeting of noteholders on September 3 to have the PTQ removed as trustee and put an end to the wind-up action.

Mr Scott said he was at a loss to explain the PTQ decision to stay on as trustee but he said a failure to sway noteholders on September 3 would signal the end for Octaviar.

He said the board would seriously have to consider placing the company in voluntary liquidation rather than wait for a PTQ-petitioned court order to do so. Octaviar chief executive Craig Chapman agreed.

"(But) that's a decision the board has to make," he said. "I really don't know what (the PTQ) are trying to do or what they are trying to achieve.

"This has really gobsmacked us all."

Last month, Octaviar put forward a plan to pay out all of its unsecured creditors, some of them in full.

Holders of listed Octaviar notes were offered 100c in the dollar for the first $5000 they invested, and 22.5c in the dollar for anything above $5000.

Acceptance would see 200 of the 560 noteholders with small investments repaid in full.

The same offer has been extended to Challenger, owed $100 million, and the Jenny Hutson-controlled Premium Income Fund, owed $197.5 million.

The Supreme Court last month adjourned the PTQ's winding-up action until September 9, giving creditors time to consider the payout offer.

The offer has been extended to August 29, the first chance available for Octaviar to stay afloat.

But the meeting of noteholders on September 3 will be crunch time for the company.

Failure to reach an agreement with creditors would almost certainly lead to a winding up of Octaviar.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:

Welcome Burnt, keep posting!

The following was sent by email, all opinions welcome...

I and my wife are among the many unfortunates that have a large chunk of their lives evaporating in front of our eyes in the form of the Premium Income Fund investments. We attended the Sydney meeting, after which we felt somewhat more hopeful. However, since then we have heard nothing to reinforce that faint hope. The Q & A booklet sent to us from Wellington does nothing to lift our confidence. We distinctly remember an undertaking from Jenny Hutson that the listing of the Premium Income Fund on the NSX would not occour. It appears form this latest document that it is still very much on the agenda and reading between the lines, it is clear that Wellington is DETERMINED that this will go ahead. We find the booklet confusing as we don't really understand what the responsibilities are of the various parts of the Wellington group and how they relate to each other and the Premium Income Fund. I have a couple of specific questions that I would like answered, and if anyone can help I would be greatful.

1. If the PIF is listed on the stock exchange does that mean that we will never be able to redeem our investment from Wellington but instead only be able to sell them on the stock market.
Wellinton repeats (in the booklet) ad nauseum that no one HAS to sell but they make no mention of whether or not our holdings will ever be redeemable from Wellington (in the event of the listing going ahead.)
If that is the case, then we would oppose any move to list and hope that others would also.
2. Do I understand correctly from the booklet that, as things stand right now, there is still the possibility of Octaviar will place the PIF into receivership and Wellington cannot stop them.
We would like to get answers to these questions if possible, but, in any case would like to hear opinions and comments from others.

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Hi DoraNBoots,
I am surprised that you actually posted the above because in my opinion JH has always said that PIF would be listed on the NSX and JH regularly said that PIF would not be listed on the ASX due to costs. A simple hearing problem - NSX in stead of ASX. Wellington is only the RE and not the fund.
We should be all trying to inform and not to confuse - Unless that is what you are trying to do?
RickH:couch

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

RickH said:

Hi DoraNBoots,
I am surprised that you actually posted the above because in my opinion JH has always said that PIF would be listed on the NSX and JH regularly said that PIF would not be listed on the ASX due to costs. A simple hearing problem - NSX in stead of ASX. Wellington is only the RE and not the fund.
We should be all trying to inform and not to confuse - Unless that is what you are trying to do?
RickH:couch

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What are you talking about RickH? I posted some comments and questions from someone who sent an email. I think they have a right to ask these questions without being criticised. They seem to be genuine questions and I have nothing to do with it except to post it on their behalf.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:

1. If the PIF is listed on the stock exchange does that mean that we will never be able to redeem our investment from Wellington but instead only be able to sell them on the stock market.
Wellinton repeats (in the booklet) ad nauseum that no one HAS to sell but they make no mention of whether or not our holdings will ever be redeemable from Wellington (in the event of the listing going ahead.)
If that is the case, then we would oppose any move to list and hope that others would also.
2. Do I understand correctly from the booklet that, as things stand right now, there is still the possibility of Octaviar will place the PIF into receivership and Wellington cannot stop them.
We would like to get answers to these questions if possible, but, in any case would like to hear opinions and comments from others.

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DoraNBoots, suggest you or the husband and wife phone WC to get the answers direct from the horse's mouth not from we nincompoops who populate this thread. As i said in a previous posting, all we seem to do is go around in circles.
Can't wait till Sept 18 meeting when the future direction of the PIF will be much clearer and for better or worse, depending on your preference, our lifes will move on....

Rance

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Rance said:

DoraNBoots, suggest you or the husband and wife phone WC to get the answers direct from the horse's mouth not from we nincompoops who populate this thread. As i said in a previous posting, all we seem to do is go around in circles.
...

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Yes, I'm sure they will contact WC but their last sentence is asking for "opinions and comments from others". I won't hold my breath.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:

What are you talking about RickH? I posted some comments and questions from someone who sent an email. I think they have a right to ask these questions without being criticised. They seem to be genuine questions and I have nothing to do with it except to post it on their behalf.

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Hi DoraNBoots,
I WAS surprised that you actually posted the above because in my opinion JH has always said that PIF would be listed on the NSX and JH regularly said that PIF would not be listed on the ASX due to costs. A simple hearing problem - NSX in stead of ASX. Wellington is only the RE and not the fund.
We should be all trying to inform and not to confuse - Unless that is what you are trying to do?

I tried to answer their questions as requested:
1) NSX not ASX - hearing problem.
2) Wellington is the RE not the fund.
3) Octaviar cannot force the PIF to do anything. PIF does not owe them any money and they are not even a major PIF investor.
I do apologise because I mistakenly thought that you could have helped the emailer directly and answered these questions yourselves.
RickH:Couch

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Help me someone If the market value of the pif is 45 cents And we all know what market value is Like if you write your car off in a smach you get paid out market value which could be heaps below what it is selling for So that brings me to this point WC has told centrelink the fund is worth 45cents market value And yet WC then says if we sell it it is only 14 cents In other words they are telling centrelink the wrong figure AS the red head said years ago Please Explane AS poor dumb me dont get it ////

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I've attached an article from yesterdays GC. I think the last part of it (copied below) explains the rights issue we have been warned about, is this right? Can you tell me if the PIF is listed, would we have a say whether or not more capital could be raised in this way?

"LLA's stapled securities fell 0.2c to 4.6c yesterday but were still well up on the 4c rights issue price which formed the central plank in the recapitalisation plan. The issue, underwritten by Arctic, raised $100 million but it was largely shunned by LLA's existing security-holders. Many of them would still be shell-shocked by the massive drop in value of their holdings since the demise of MFS, which saw their investment in LLA fall from above $1 last year to a low of 3.3c. Original security-holders now own about 10 per cent of the group."