Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

flatback · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
My understanding is: to amend the constitution to e.g. amend the redemption clauses etc. Such clauses affect members rights. If these aren't amended the fund must be wound up after 360 days of the freeze. My bet is we'll be voting on amendments to the constitution.

I hope it is not only to amend the redemption clauses,i hope we shall also look at the changes required to stop any loans being made available to the RE from our fund ,to stop the out of control company forming to suck money out of our fund,i do strongly believe that the money that we pay the RE of the day, to oversee the operations of the fund are quite adequate,and the roll of the RE is to use our money to build our fund ,not line their pockets by forming bogus companies(no loans should be made by the RE if that money knowingly is going to a person closely related to the RE, and no exceptions). i have been on about this, before on this forum, and do firmly believe that without this clause being added to our Constitution,we may as well give our money away now,this kind of proposal must be looked at and excepted by JH, worded differently quite obviously, but needs to be put in place no matter what jargon is applied cheers Flatback

Mutchy · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

QUOTE=Duped;320215]
Good question. Don't know. Shouldn't be difficult to answer. Any of you posters have your own PI insurance? Can you ask the issuer? But even if it does attach to individuals, WC holds all the evidence and would have to allocate resources during a case, particularly during the 'discovery' phase of a case. Sucks. I'm not decided on the PI issue.

Hello all,
I used to have PI insurance when running my consultancy and am currently insured for "Officers Legal Liability" being a member of the committee of a recreational club incorporated under the NSW Dept. of Fair Trading. I am in no way a qualified person to give advice on this matter but a previous and present customer.

PI Insurance and Officers Liability covers the person or persons in the organisation, not the organisation. It covers you only while you continue to pay the premiums. For example: the architect who designed the Newcastle Workers Club building which fell down when the earthquake hit Newcastle a few years ago had retired and wound up his business some 15 years prior to the earthquake. He had stopped paying his PI insurance at about the same time. His PI Insurer had no responsibility to cover him because the policy had lapsed even though at the time of doing his design he was covered.
PI insurance will benefit the insured when it can be proven that the insured acted professionally ie in accordance with good practice and did not commit a crime. Officers Insurance is generally bundled with accident and Public Liability and is not readily identifiable from my experience. PI insurance is very very expensive. It is usually calculated on a percentage of the insured expected earnings and the factors for calculating that percentage vary from industry to industry. The construction industry in which i worked is one of the highest at about 13% I think but it's many years since I retired and I am not up to date with the figures.
It's only worthwhile suing someone if they have enough money to satisfy your requirements. If they have no money - ie done an Alan Bond and put all assets in a relatives name or transferred it into a secret bank account somewhere then you'll get what Bonds creditors got: SFA.

I think it's a futile hope that any sums can ever be obtained under either PI or Officers insurance as I think they will have either committed an unlawful act, not be eligible otherwise be covered by insurance, or it will have lapsed, or they will own insufficient assets to be worth the expense of pursuit.

Mutchy

Mutchy · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Well, Noteholders, Bondholders and PAC are getting promised 92.6c of OCV debt, what are we, chopped liver, that we shouldn't get the same? If your right about participating creditor being the same as secured debt arrangements, then we better pray that OCV LTD doesn't get liquidated!

Why were we not offered that option before?

Did Jenny subsequently negotiate that for us?

Hi All,
Looks like JH has negotiated a better deal for us. The position now is much better than when first offered by OCV. Compare the offer by OCV when it was first posted on their website with what we have seen above.
Its heartening to see the linking of our future remuneration with OCV's future returns. This is what we on this group had been talking about a few weeks ago and it is good to see happen. Taking the long term view rather than a predators view, I hope there are not too many Great Doom's out there either in OCV or PIF, that common sense will prevail and that both organisations will trade out of the present market downturn.

Mutchy

sugar3157 · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mutchy said:
QUOTE=Duped;320215]
Good question. Don't know. Shouldn't be difficult to answer. Any of you posters have your own PI insurance? Can you ask the issuer? But even if it does attach to individuals, WC holds all the evidence and would have to allocate resources during a case, particularly during the 'discovery' phase of a case. Sucks. I'm not decided on the PI issue.

Hello all,
I used to have PI insurance when running my consultancy and am currently insured for "Officers Legal Liability" being a member of the committee of a recreational club incorporated under the NSW Dept. of Fair Trading. I am in no way a qualified person to give advice on this matter but a previous and present customer.

PI Insurance and Officers Liability covers the person or persons in the organisation, not the organisation. It covers you only while you continue to pay the premiums. For example: the architect who designed the Newcastle Workers Club building which fell down when the earthquake hit Newcastle a few years ago had retired and wound up his business some 15 years prior to the earthquake. He had stopped paying his PI insurance at about the same time. His PI Insurer had no responsibility to cover him because the policy had lapsed even though at the time of doing his design he was covered.
PI insurance will benefit the insured when it can be proven that the insured acted professionally ie in accordance with good practice and did not commit a crime. Officers Insurance is generally bundled with accident and Public Liability and is not readily identifiable from my experience. PI insurance is very very expensive. It is usually calculated on a percentage of the insured expected earnings and the factors for calculating that percentage vary from industry to industry. The construction industry in which i worked is one of the highest at about 13% I think but it's many years since I retired and I am not up to date with the figures.
It's only worthwhile suing someone if they have enough money to satisfy your requirements. If they have no money - ie done an Alan Bond and put all assets in a relatives name or transferred it into a secret bank account somewhere then you'll get what Bonds creditors got: SFA.

I think it's a futile hope that any sums can ever be obtained under either PI or Officers insurance as I think they will have either committed an unlawful act, not be eligible otherwise be covered by insurance, or it will have lapsed, or they will own insufficient assets to be worth the expense of pursuit.

Mutchy

HI Muchy, when I gave my Investment Adviser my money I told him to make sure that there was a cut off point of 10% for all the investments he put my money into...he said yes of course....I queried him about putting 100k into one place PIF and he told me ...safe as houses....he did not inform me of the PIF mess til last month...can I sue him?

Dexter · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good news! As no one has taken up my offer of 20c/unit cash in hand we can only presume that we have 100% vote against liquidation. Let hope this applies across the board.

sugar3157 · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dexter said:
Good news! As no one has taken up my offer of 20c/unit cash in hand we can only presume that we have 100% vote against liquidation. Let hope this applies across the board.

there is no other way to go forward to try and recoup any of our money..except to vote for JH...even I realise that...like it or not....

DoraNBoots · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

sugar3157 said:
Hi all, 96c would be awesome....but i think we are dreaming....If OCV is liquidated does that really matter being as WC now owns PIF...can we not still keep trading in the hopes that the market will go up?

Hi Sugar,

The 96 cents mentioned in this forum is the amount we are hoping the PIF might get back for every dollar OCV owe us (under the secured debt arrangement). If we were to get all this money it would add just under 20 cents to our unit price taking it up from 45 cents to somewhere just under 65 cents. It is not known yet just how much we would get from a secured debt arrangement – WC are saying it depends how much Stella sells for. As far as we can tell it shouldn’t matter if OCV is liquidated except that the money we get from them would be a lot less than 96 cent for every dollar they owe us. OCV getting liquidated shouldn’t have any effect on whether the PIF is liquidated. It’s the Sept vote that will decide if PIF is liquidated or not.

It seems like the secured debt arrangement will be an agreement where OCV will agree to give the PIF a cut of Stella once it's sold. I don't see why the deal should be limited to Stella and not all OCV assets - that's what would happen if they were liquidated.

Thanks for the info on PI Mutchy!

Javier · 3 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

If we were to get $147.5m would see the 45c unit value go to 65c. Our claim is for $220.5m, if we were to get 96c for each of those $220.5m claimed you are getting up to around the 75c mark as a unit value. Add to that some good investments made in that 3 year period and some favourable movement in our current asset portfolio and I guess JH claim to $1 in 5 years is very do-able.

DoraNBoots · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WC have said any money from the $50mill FS will be distributed to unit holders (rather than be added to the unit price)

DoraNBoots · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I have questions about the Revised Balance sheet on the back of the July Handout...

How can the realisable value estimated at 31 May 2008 be 45 cents but an orderly realisation of assets by a liquidator be 14 cents?

Also, the Units in managed investment schemes dropped from $161 mill in Dec 07 to $93 mill in May 08 to $5 mill realisable value. Can anyone explain this other than saying it’s due to market downturn? The Alternative investments are just as shocking but I’m assuming most of this write down is due to the OCV junk they gave us.

I’m assuming it’s normal for a fund to adjust unit values according to the market as has been done but I’m wondering why PWC wouldn’t do this for WC (WC said PWC refused to provide estimate unit prices). Anyone have any idea why PCW refused? Is it because the previous valuation of our units (which I assume they did) would be shown to be wrong? Or do they not agree with this 45 cent valuation, or do they just not do this kind of thing?

The PIF overview on the newpif website still says the units are $1 so I don’t think any of the info is up-to-date. Funny how it says “Perpetual Nominees Limited is the custodian of the Premium Income Fund, and has been established for 122 years. Perpetual Nominees Limited holds the title to the assets on behalf of the Fund.” That means nothing!

selciper · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It really is time for WC to clear up this obvious misunderstanding about Perpetual's role. As far as I'm concerned in the past they were keeping a watch on events as custodians. Not so, it seems - so WC please make it clear - what exactly do Perpetual do apart from posting letters?

Mutchy · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

sugar3157 said:
HI Muchy, when I gave my Investment Adviser my money I told him to make sure that there was a cut off point of 10% for all the investments he put my money into...he said yes of course....I queried him about putting 100k into one place PIF and he told me ...safe as houses....he did not inform me of the PIF mess til last month...can I sue him?

Hi Sugar3157,
I don't know. Better ask a lawyer. They very often will talk to you for free when exploring whether there is a possibility of work/litigation.
Mutchy

Jadel · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dear Dora

In most instances ,where a company is placed in our predicament ,they are able to appoint an Administrator and the true asset value of the fund can be realized, in an orderly sale over time,.

Investors in the PIF ,for some reason are not allowed the common decency of that option, instead we are told that their will be a piecemeal firesale in which we must accept 14cents ,by a company with a vested interst in the management rights .

In any event it appears that some people are still unable to grasp the concept, that whether or not we get 45cents or 65 cents NTA value, once we are a listed entity; either on the NSX or ASX the actual price we get for the units is entirely dictated by what investors are prepared to pay ,which I believe will only be a fraction of the true value for many years to come.

Interesting observation on Perpetual , my daughter is doing a business degree and she has to do a study on marketing this week I have informed her it is just about Gilding the Lily ( telling lies). She is going to use Perpetual as as an example of how you can get away with deception and deciet without any recourse to legal action by investors.

great dame · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Dear Dora

In most instances ,where a company is placed in our predicament ,they are able to appoint an Administrator and the true asset value of the fund can be realized, in an orderly sale over time,.

Investors in the PIF ,for some reason are not allowed the common decency of that option, instead we are told that their will be a piecemeal firesale in which we must accept 14cents ,by a company with a vested interst in the management rights .

In any event it appears that some people are still unable to grasp the concept, that whether or not we get 45cents or 65 cents NTA value, once we are a listed entity; either on the NSX or ASX the actual price we get for the units is entirely dictated by what investors are prepared to pay ,which I believe will only be a fraction of the true value for many years to come.

Interesting observation on Perpetual , my daughter is doing a business degree and she has to do a study on marketing this week I have informed her it is just about Gilding the Lily ( telling lies). She is going to use Perpetual as as an example of how you can get away with deception and deciet without any recourse to legal action by investors.

Jadel everything you say is spot on i would just like to add even if our units are valuered over a Dollar each try getting that on the NSX I wont be but a lot of the unit holders are in for one big mighty shock if you thinkjyour going to get a buck for them Foot Note maybe in twenty years time you might ////////

SPLITPIN · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The custodian Perpetual Nominees holds the title to the assets.

I refer to WC comments on the forum information sheets in which they refer to receivership by the previous RE as the only option.

In other words they were prepared to let the bank appoint an administator.

It appears that the fund credit facility with the bank must have had security over our assets which would have been under the care of Perpetual Nominees.

A strange way for a custodian to look after our assets.

Splitpin

kanni · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I can't believe this has happened to our money. The company was reliable & trustworthy when I did my due diligence before investing. Well that's water under the bridge now. I guess we're lucky to have KH on our side & fighting for us. Hope the September vote sees the company go ahead & trade back to maximum value plus some You don't think anyone will vote for the liquidation option, do you?

Javier · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I am planning on flying up for the day for the Sep 18 meeting / vote. Can someone who lives on the GC tell me how far the meeting place is from GC airport and if we are planning a meeting of the AG after the meeting? Just so I can make some plans. Thanks

DoraNBoots · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Dear Dora

In most instances ,where a company is placed in our predicament ,they are able to appoint an Administrator and the true asset value of the fund can be realized, in an orderly sale over time,.

Investors in the PIF ,for some reason are not allowed the common decency of that option, instead we are told that their will be a piecemeal firesale in which we must accept 14cents ,by a company with a vested interst in the management rights .

In any event it appears that some people are still unable to grasp the concept, that whether or not we get 45cents or 65 cents NTA value, once we are a listed entity; either on the NSX or ASX the actual price we get for the units is entirely dictated by what investors are prepared to pay ,which I believe will only be a fraction of the true value for many years to come.

Interesting observation on Perpetual , my daughter is doing a business degree and she has to do a study on marketing this week I have informed her it is just about Gilding the Lily ( telling lies). She is going to use Perpetual as as an example of how you can get away with deception and deciet without any recourse to legal action by investors.

Thanks Jadel,

WC are talking about an orderly realisation of assets. This is a quote from the newpif website (and handout)
"An orderly realisation of assets by a liquidator of the Premium Income Fund would in the opinion of the board of Wellington Investment Management Limited see investors receive approximately 14 cents per unit"

The 14 cents is supposedly for an orderly realisation of assets. Do you think it's possible an orderly realisation would only be 14 cents if the Realisable value (as at 31 May 08) is 45 cents.

Another topic..

WC took on OCV IM which along with the PIF managed:
• Octaviar Cash Enhanced Fund ARSN 118 285 760
• Octaviar Maximum Yield Fund ARSN 109 106 658
• Octaviar Dynamic Growth Equity Fund ARSN 121 883 020.

Do you know anything about these other funds? I noted the OCV offer refers to the Maximum Yield Fund saying "PIF has commenced proceedings ... The damages specifically relate to direct or indirect participation loans to PAC ($117.5 million) and an investment in the Maximum Yield fund ($30 million)."

I would still like your thoughts on the loss under "Units in managed investment schemes" on the Revised Balance Sheet. I suppose $30mill is from the Max Yield Fund as just mentioned. Surely this information on schemes the PIF has invested in isn't confidential and could be provided by WC.

DoraNBoots · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Do we have any OCVG Noteholders? I requested access to Octaviar's liquidation distribution analysis model and supporting schedules as outlined in the document "Proposal to amend the terms of issue of the Octaviar Notes to include (a)..." but you have to be a noteholder to get it.

Can anyone help with this? You will need to provide 333capital your Holder Identification Number and registered name under which you are an OCVG Noteholder.

Duped · 4 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Javier said:
I am planning on flying up for the day for the Sep 18 meeting / vote. Can someone who lives on the GC tell me how far the meeting place is from GC airport and if we are planning a meeting of the AG after the meeting? Just so I can make some plans. Thanks

19km from Coolangatta airport. Striaght up the Gold Coast Hwy.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?dadd....098332,153.473167&spn=0.214121,0.303154&z=12

Well well, I never knew that the runway crosses the QLD/NSW border.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency