Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

iamspeed · 30 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
I've underlined the bit of interest. Was this claim known in Dec 07? Anyone got the financial statements mentioned?

Dora

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20080428/pdf/318scvzmpdsh76.pdf

See ASX announcement 28/4/08. I couldn't find any mention of the claim?

I don't believe it was known as at Dec 07. When a company releases a set of accounts for a 6 month period (usually a couple of months after the period ends) they are required to make disclosures of material events that may have occured after the books were rulled off for that end of 6 month period. That make sense?

gazzan57 · 30 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

iamspeed said:
Dora

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20080428/pdf/318scvzmpdsh76.pdf

See ASX announcement 28/4/08. I couldn't find any mention of the claim?

I don't believe it was known as at Dec 07. When a company releases a set of accounts for a 6 month period (usually a couple of months after the period ends) they are required to make disclosures of material events that may have occured after the books were rulled off for that end of 6 month period. That make sense?

Hi all, I was just wondering if it was possible to access OCV ,MFS or PIF accounts or in-house memo's from June '07 to date?

DoraNBoots · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

iamspeed said:
Dora

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20080428/pdf/318scvzmpdsh76.pdf

See ASX announcement 28/4/08. I couldn't find any mention of the claim?

I don't believe it was known as at Dec 07. When a company releases a set of accounts for a 6 month period (usually a couple of months after the period ends) they are required to make disclosures of material events that may have occured after the books were rulled off for that end of 6 month period. That make sense?

Thanks for the link Iamspeed! For those that haven't looked at the link it's Octaviar's Interim Financial Report for the half year ended 31 Dec 07. I think the screenshot below with my underline is what the 24 June 08 announcement was referring to.

sugar3157 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Thanks for the link Iamspeed! For those that haven't looked at the link it's Octaviar's Interim Financial Report for the half year ended 31 Dec 07. I think the screenshot below with my underline is what the 24 June 08 announcement was referring to.

Hi all, I just can't understand why we can,t sue either our financial advisers or our investment company for negligence...? Isn't that what we pay them for to watch for things like this and get our money out in time?....I feel so sick and frustrated over this I can't sleep....I someone's head!!!!!

Jadel · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sugar

You can definately sue your financial Advisor if you paid for advice to enter the Fund especially if it was after November 2007

simgrund · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
Agreed but after 2 1/2 months of this forum we haven't even managed to get a mission statement for an AG, let alone a constitution, board/committee and incorporated it. These things are beyond my skills.

SO WHAT IS PROGRESSING ON THIS FRONT?
CAN Action Group PLEASE GIVE AN UP TODATE REPORT.
AND I TRIED TO JOIN 'AG' through yahoo group, no luck.
Please help me with instructions.

Regards,

gazzan57 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Sugar

You can definately sue your financial Advisor if you paid for advice to enter the Fund especially if it was after November 2007

Hi Jadel, I too was told by my Financial adviser to invest all my money in a Netwealth Fund that fund then put $100.000 into PIF as part of their portfolio.Safe as houses I was told...grrrr....can I sue too? It was done in Oct 06...then each 12 months re invested....Who and how do I go about sueing?

breaker1 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

simgrund said:
SO WHAT IS PROGRESSING ON THIS FRONT?
CAN Action Group PLEASE GIVE AN UP TODATE REPORT.
AND I TRIED TO JOIN 'AG' through yahoo group, no luck.
Please help me with instructions.

Regards,

Contact me on breaker1@aapt.net.au

I'll try and fill you in.

breaker1 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Some feedback from Wellington Capital via an intrepid AG member, as under:

*Need to change the constitution of the fund to be able to list on the NSX.

*WC appears gives at least some commitment to options for redemption apart from the NSX at NTA, but only "if possible": "The true value of a unit in our opinion is the net asset backing of that unit, which as you know is dependent on the assets of the Fund. As mentioned above the Board is currently considering options put forward by investors at the forums and if possible will offer alternative options to investors at a future point in time."

*I can't believe that only, "more than half of investors have lodged redemption forms" - now you know the apathy were dealing with.

*The 360 days expire in early 2009!

*The PIF breached the max 20% loan by going upto 20.7% because, "The Fund experienced difficulties after 19 January 2008 when a large number of redemptions were made by investors as a consequence of the adverse market events surrounding MFS Limited. The Premium Income Fund proved illiquid and market movement resulted in the loan to valuation ratio being 20.7%"

*WC has had "discussions" with ASIC.

*WC is happy with the role Perpetual played and found them "diligent".

*Appropriate notification has been made to Lloyds for any relevant matters -75% loss or 3M, whichever is the lesser.

*OCV LTD do have directors & officers insurance cover.

*New arrangements negotiated with LLA subject to finalisations with Arctic, expected end July.

*With GEO via TROJAN, if any shares are sold above 25.5 c, PIF gets 40% of the profit.

gazzan57 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Some feedback from Wellington Capital via an intrepid AG member, as under:

*Need to change the constitution of the fund to be able to list on the NSX.

*WC appears gives at least some commitment to options for redemption apart from the NSX at NTA, but only "if possible": "The true value of a unit in our opinion is the net asset backing of that unit, which as you know is dependent on the assets of the Fund. As mentioned above the Board is currently considering options put forward by investors at the forums and if possible will offer alternative options to investors at a future point in time."

*I can't believe that only, "more than half of investors have lodged redemption forms" - now you know the apathy were dealing with.

*The 360 days expire in early 2009!

*The PIF breached the max 20% loan by going upto 20.7% because, "The Fund experienced difficulties after 19 January 2008 when a large number of redemptions were made by investors as a consequence of the adverse market events surrounding MFS Limited. The Premium Income Fund proved illiquid and market movement resulted in the loan to valuation ratio being 20.7%"

*WC has had "discussions" with ASIC.

*WC is happy with the role Perpetual played and found them "diligent".

*Appropriate notification has been made to Lloyds for any relevant matters -75% loss or 3M, whichever is the lesser.

*OCV LTD do have directors & officers insurance cover.

*New arrangements negotiated with LLA subject to finalisations with Arctic, expected end July.

*With GEO via TROJAN, if any shares are sold above 25.5 c, PIF gets 40% of the profit.

Hi breaker 1, I do not exactly understand what all f this means....but what do you mean when you say..."OCV LD do have directors and officers insurance cover"?

breaker1 · 31 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

gazzan57 said:
Hi breaker 1, I do not exactly understand what all f this means....but what do you mean when you say..."OCV LD do have directors and officers insurance cover"?

To me, at least, it means that investors can take legal action against certain senior MFS/OCV staff if they feel they have behaved illegally/inappropriately according to the PIF constitution / corporate law and if successful, you can claim compensation from their insurance company. I have noticed that these sort of actions are usually done as class actions.

My apologies gazzan, over time, posters have been using in-house jargon and making assumptions that we all understand the topics being discussed here and we are tending not to expand known issues brought up.

DoraNBoots · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Some feedback from Wellington Capital via an intrepid AG member, as under:
.....

Thanks Breaker and the AG member for the info above. I have some comments and questions.

I supposed we don’t know exactly what happened but can anyone explain what might have happened in Nov and Dec with the $147mill the PIF is now claiming from OCV? I’m wondering if this would have been a bunch of bad loans that OCV had that they exchanged with the PIF for cash or some other kind of asset? I find it strange that WC don’t blame the illiquid state of the fund at least partly on this activity. (they just mentioned the rush on redemptions which would have only been those that were due to redeem that month)

No mention of public Indemnity for the people that handed over the money. Does anyone know the implications of suing the former directors of the current RE? Is PI attached to an individual or a company?

Having over half of investors with redemption requests doesn’t necessarily reflect our views (although I don’t disagree there is apathy). We are unable to rollover so are automatically sent redemption papers and asked to complete them. Plus I remember getting a letter when we were first told redemptions were being delayed that they would be processed in order of receipt, I'm sure this would have prompted people to send in a request.

Regarding WC’s comments on the NSX. It sounds to me like it won’t be possible for an alternative to NSX right away and IF POSSIBLE there will be later on if things improve. “ if possible will offer alternative options to investors at a future point in time” Imagine if the market doesn’t improve for another 5 years!

Is the comment on Lloyds saying we can only claim a max of $3mill (total) from Lloyds for any relevant matters?

great dame · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

A few points of intrest If WC lists on that hole in the wall NSX A invester befiore buying shares if he or she is sane dose some resurch into a company he or she may want to invest into He or she will look at the PE ratio PIF unknown Forcarst EPC UNKNOWN Forcarst DPS UNKNOWN Divend Cover NONE All we know is a 6 cents Div a year Unknown if its coming from capital return or growth ?? So dont expect an invester to bid for much on that dopey NSX for a unit I realy dont think there will be any buyers out there at all to buy our units The price will have to be pretty low to attract a buyer Sorry to be a carrier of grim news /////////

seamisty · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Having over half of investors with redemption requests doesn’t necessarily reflect our views (although I don’t disagree there is apathy).

Is the comment on Lloyds saying we can only claim a max of $3mill (total) from Lloyds for any relevant matters?[/QUOTE]
Good Morning DoraNBoots, I have never been sent redemption forms as our investment was for 2 years so I guess the 360 days is irrelevant. Term options were for 6, 12, 18, and 24 months so rather than some investors being called 'apathetic', I think it is more a case of some unit holders were not due to redeem until Jan 2010 regardless of what happened. Regarding the Insurance through Lloyd's Underwriters,the maximum loss covered by the policy is 75% of the nominated loan amount or $3million, whichever is the lesser. As at 30 June 2007, 61.54% of the commercial loan was insured. Who knows what happened after that, lets hope MFS didn't let the policy lapse!!! Seamisty

Jadel · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dear Dora

I have made extensive investigations re sueing with Maurice Blackburn & Cash and also Litigation Funders IMF regards PIF Indemnity Insurance.

Their are two problems :

Firstly Indemnity Insurers refuse to pay on an hint of unlawfull activity in these cases ;

Secondly , You have to find somebody with deep pockets to sue the costs for IMF to provide the Funding would be in the 17% to 30% range.

sugar3157 · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Dear Dora

I have made extensive investigations re sueing with Maurice Blackburn & Cash and also Litigation Funders IMF regards PIF Indemnity Insurance.

Their are two problems :

Firstly Indemnity Insurers refuse to pay on an hint of unlawfull activity in these cases ;

Secondly , You have to find somebody with deep pockets to sue the costs for IMF to provide the Funding would be in the 17% to 30% range.

Good morning all, can't ASIC make them pay us back our initial money?....I just don't understand why their insurance co doesn't just pay us out....we all know now that there was some very dodgy dealings going on last year...so if we can see that...so can ASIC and insurers.....please explain....

Rance · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Regarding Redemptions

Don't forget you could redeem your units at any time but incurred a penalty on a sliding scale for redeeming earlier than maturity. When MFS's shares went "south", many savvy unit holders would have exercised this option; hence the higher than normal number of redemption requests and the drain on available funds leading to the 180 days then 360 days moratorium. Unfortunately, I was not among those who got away quickly before the avalanche!!

Rance

DoraNBoots · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Rance said:
Regarding Redemptions

Don't forget you could redeem your units at any time but incurred a penalty on a sliding scale for redeeming earlier than maturity. When MFS's shares went "south", many savvy unit holders would have exercised this option; hence the higher than normal number of redemption requests and the drain on available funds leading to the 180 days then 360 days moratorium. Unfortunately, I was not among those who got away quickly before the avalanche!!

Rance

Hi Rance,

I know the pds reads that way but I can tell you MFS were not allowing redemptions before the term was up unless you had a real hardship case. I know people that tried to redeem in Oct 07 and were not able to. The MFS contact at the time said to not even bother to fill in the form. Of course they did and it was rejected.

Jadel · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sugar

Insurance companies do everything in their power to prevent people from litigating agaist them in these circumstances. That is why they make money.

ASIC could instigate legal action if Corporate law has been breached , However it may be argued that Jenny Hutson is litigating for unit holders in respect of the 197 million dollars. Therefore they may not be inclined to take any further action in the matter.

Unfortunately investors really have very little protection from government authorities when it comes to corporate malfeasance.

Calliope · 1 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes Dora you are quite right. My units were due for redemption in Jan 08. I tried to redeem in Oct 07. I was prepared to pay the penalty. I spun them a real hard luck story. I didn't even get a reply and when I rang them I found out that that option was closed.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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