Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

selciper · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

It's difficult to argue against Deano1's ideas. In our present situation every dollar helps and the very modest $50m offer can assist a bit. To get a portion of Stella's action would be encouraging and, as everyone seems to be saying, this is JH's chance to show us WC's negotiating skills. Unfortunately any optimism is usually short-lived and overtaken by a fresh batch of ugly numbers..

PS What's happening with LLA and our money? ASIC seem to have filed us away in their "too hard" section. Surely justice will prevail!

Jadel · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Public trustees of Old appear to be hell bent on winding up the company, they have not draw back from that position one iota, judging by the recent legal action ,so that is the primary problem .

I don’t think it’s going to come down to whether or not we agree to accept the deal with caveats attached

If by some miracle we can get a consensus from the major creditors I would be taking the 50 million in cash with a sigh of relief . “bird in hand theory”

In any event if they cut a special deal with us the other creditors will be up in arms , consequently I do not think JH is in a strong position to negotiate an individual arrangement .

And as you all know i am not particularly a big JH fan

I think this is about the best deal we can get under the circumstance.

Apart from throwing in 50 strokes of the Ratan for the instigators of this disaster.

breaker1 · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Public trustees of Old appear to be hell bent on winding up the company, they have not draw back from that position one iota, judging by the recent legal action ,so that is the primary problem .

I don’t think it’s going to come down to whether or not we agree to accept the deal with caveats attached

If by some miracle we can get a consensus from the major creditors I would be taking the 50 million in cash with a sigh of relief . “bird in hand theory”

In any event if they cut a special deal with us the other creditors will be up in arms , consequently I do not think JH is in a strong position to negotiate any special individual arrangement .

And as you all know i am not particularly a big JH fan

I think this is about the best deal we can get under the corcumstance.

Apart from throwing in 50 strokes of the Ratan for the instigators of this disaster.

Yeah! Chris Scott said, ""I think it's a brilliant offer because if we go into liquidation across the board, the average they (creditors) will get on best analysis is 13.9 ¢ in the dollar." Is that another 14c scare tactic? I have a funny feeling our 14c came from Chris, because there it is again.

Nevertheless, I still want more than $50M and more than 50 strokes of the Ratan!!

We're not being greedy, we're losing big time here!

Jenny has a special relationship with CS & just may be able to do something extra.

DoraNBoots · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Javier said:
Let's see if JH squeezes him to get us a better deal with perhaps some future upside, thou I daresay if OCV gives us a better deal, then the other creditors will want that too..I think that ALL the creditors have to ask for future upside of OCV / Stella asset.

Jadel said:
In any event if they cut a special deal with us the other creditors will be up in arms , consequently I do not think JH is in a strong position to negotiate an individual arrangement .

The other creditors are getting a much better deal than the PIF. Tell me if I’m reading this wrong but doesn’t the attached table show Noteholders, Bondholders and PAC doing just fine over the long term (96.5c\$1 by 2011), with the PIF with no other option (yet) but to take 22.5c/$1.

Can anyone explain why the table claims the 3 creditors mentioned above would get more cents in the $ than the PIF if liquidation were to take place?

View attachment 22590
View attachment 22592

k.smith · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty...in regards to the Public Trustee of Queensland bringing forward their court agenda...can anyone tell me why they are all FOR liquidation? I find this all very contradictory.If CS is telling us the best result is 13.5c, why are they(PT) going down the dreaded liquid path? It isn,t exactly a bird in the hand, is it?

DoraNBoots · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Yeah! Chris Scott said, ""I think it's a brilliant offer because if we go into liquidation across the board, the average they (creditors) will get on best analysis is 13.9 ¢ in the dollar." Is that another 14c scare tactic? I have a funny feeling our 14c came from Chris, because there it is again.

This 13.9c in the dollar is what an average creditor would get if they exclude Stella in the liquidation. Why is this even an option? Surly the liquidation figure has to include Stella and this is 28.5c in the dollar. A big difference and more than they are offering the PIF under all 3 senarios! (see table from my previous post).

If I am reading this table right then I find Scott's comments in the media very misleading.

SPLITPIN · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

k.smith said:
Seamisty...in regards to the Public Trustee of Queensland bringing forward their court agenda...can anyone tell me why they are all FOR liquidation? I find this all very contradictory.If CS is telling us the best result is 13.5c, why are they(PT) going down the dreaded liquid path? It isn,t exactly a bird in the hand, is it?

K Smith.

If you read back through the media (plugger.com.au etc), as I remember it, MFS was not very forthcoming with details to the PTQ when requested, thus the start of the Court Actions.

Also being the QLD government they would probably want this mess cleaned up quickly for political reasons only they would know.

But I suspect the bureaucrates have very strict policies and procedures they are bound to follow.

Regards

Splitpin

breaker1 · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
The other creditors are getting a much better deal than the PIF. Tell me if I’m reading this wrong but doesn’t the attached table show Noteholders, Bondholders and PAC doing just fine over the long term (96.5c\$1 by 2011), with the PIF with no other option (yet) but to take 22.5c/$1.

Can anyone explain why the table claims the 3 creditors mentioned above would get more cents in the $ than the PIF if liquidation were to take place?

View attachment 22590
View attachment 22592

1] OCV offer to PIF for a quick deal for monies owed
– PIF will accept 22.5c / $1 for its $123.7 million direct and indirect = $27.83M 25.8c = 31.9M

participation loans with PAC, and assign the participation loans to the

Octaviar Group;

– PIF will accept 15c / $1 for its unsecured PAC notes (being $23.6 = $3.54 25.8c = 6.1M
million); and

– PAC will release the Octaviar Group from all other claims including the

damages claim for approximately $270 million;

• PIF: in addition to the above, PIF will:

– accept 22.5c / $1 for its $50 million Support Mechanism claim; = $11.25M 25.8c = 12.9M

– accept 22.5c / $1 related to the Maximum Yield investment ($30 = $6.75M

25.8c = 7.74M
million) and assign this asset to the Octaviar Group;

– accept 22.5c / $1 for its further claim of $5.5 million; and = $1.2M TTL = $50.57M 25.8c TTL = $58.64M
– release the Octaviar Group and PAC from all claims (including the

litigation claim commenced);

Liquidation including Stella and waiting 3-5 years only gets us another $8M over CS's immediate payment offer. Inflation over 3-4 years would pretty much eat that away.

DoraNBoots · 19 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

breaker1 said:
Liquidation including Stella and waiting 3-5 years only gets us another $8M over CS's immediate payment offer. Inflation over 3-4 years would pretty much eat that away.

I think it's worse than that as the "PIF Claim - participation loans" and "Max Yield investment" are considered "Contingent liabilities" which the table says would only return 16.2c \$1.

But I still don't understand why there is such a difference between the 5 major creditors if we were all supposed to be equal.

zixo · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

WC seemed to of been doing the right thing by ditching Hutchins and Watts.

Lately things only seem to of been getting worse with vague and unclear information coming from the Investor forums regarding our standing as creditors and the NSX listing from Wellington.

Given all the news relating to Octaviar and how they wish to distribute a insulting token amount so they could survive at the expense of siphoned funds from the PIF only reinforces the fact that 65 cents in the $ was only a figure thrown out to try and resurrect a fund that has been professionally pilfered.
I cant understand why JH would come out with a figure of 65 cents if there has been nothing said and undertaken that would back that up?

Coupled with the lack of any solid facts or credible information coming from Wellington regarding the NSX listing only adds to the growing skepticism that Investors will actually benefit with sitting things out.

Now is the time any Investor is re-evaluating what should happen to their their distributions and if further participation in the PIF should be prolonged.

have any investors been given information as to why we should sit through the agony of watching quoted return of Investors capital when its been said its not achievable and then watching our investments artificially rise only to fall the moment the units are sold.

What happened to that positive vibe and Information that wellington tried so hard to sell us at the forums. Wheres that promise of disclosure and trust they want us to give if they are taking the MFS/octaviar path of no information.

simgrund · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

My plug would be for all of the above; no release from proven obligations.
How can I help???
I also keep plugging CUSTODIAN's (Perp. Noms.) culpability; releasing funds without due diligence checks and against Lonsec's recommendations/ warnings; and a potential of a court case against them for substantial damages.

Could somebody with a REAL CLOUT present this to WELLCAP as a legitimate pursuit of PIF interests? As a motion for adoption at forthcoming meeting or sooner?

selciper · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Simgrund -

I share your feelings about Perpetual, but I think that they couldn't actually ever direct the RE. Could be that under the rules the key to our safe didn't have to be guarded by the Nominee. Still, the big pitch I received over the phone from MFSPIF when things started falling over was the opposite: "Remember, you have a custodian." Seems to me that if there were a chance of damages in this matter, some lawyer would have alerted us by now. And I believe WC are still employing the company as our custodian. One might well ask what is the meaning of the word "custodian." They seem to simply post out the distributions and prepare tax material. I always believed that the Trustee/Nominee was there to oversee the constitution. Silly old me.

great dame · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

zixo said:
WC seemed to of been doing the right thing by ditching Hutchins and Watts.

Lately things only seem to of been getting worse with vague and unclear information coming from the Investor forums regarding our standing as creditors and the NSX listing from Wellington.

Given all the news relating to Octaviar and how they wish to distribute a insulting token amount so they could survive at the expense of siphoned funds from the PIF only reinforces the fact that 65 cents in the $ was only a figure thrown out to try and resurrect a fund that has been professionally pilfered.
I cant understand why JH would come out with a figure of 65 cents if there has been nothing said and undertaken that would back that up?

Coupled with the lack of any solid facts or credible information coming from Wellington regarding the NSX listing only adds to the growing skepticism that Investors will actually benefit with sitting things out.

Now is the time any Investor is re-evaluating what should happen to their their distributions and if further participation in the PIF should be prolonged.

have any investors been given information as to why we should sit through the agony of watching quoted return of Investors capital when its been said its not achievable and then watching our investments artificially rise only to fall the moment the units are sold.

What happened to that positive vibe and Information that wellington tried so hard to sell us at the forums. Wheres that promise of disclosure and trust they want us to give if they are taking the MFS/octaviar path of no information.

ZIXO very well said I could not have put it any better Thank you Hope to more from you more Great Dame

Jadel · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Absolutely correct regarding Perpetual (((Trustees ))) !!! role in this affair, my wife telephoned on numerous occasions and was reassured the money could not be touched and was held in trust.

Every time I contact them now .they desperately run the line that they were only a registration service for OCV, and that they had no power whatsoever over the Funds money. In fact they were providing, nothing more than a data base, for a mailing service.

It looks like we were all well and truly conned in a clever scam, that could only have been set up originally by King and Adams and was cunningly designed to give investors confidence that their money was entrusted to an independent body run arms length from the PIF.

The fact of the matter is we were caught in a Sting, worthy of the Robert Redford and Paul Newman Movie. The arrangement with Perpetual was nothing more than an empty shell.

That Perpetual were prepared to put their good name to this misleading and deceptive scheme is beyond belief.

If there is any justice in the world the people behind this underhanded plan will rot in hell

Bumblebee · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
Absolutely correct regarding Perpetual (((Trustees ))) !!! role in this affair, my wife telephoned on numerous occasions and was reassured the money could not be touched and was held in trust.

Every time I contact them now .they desperately run the line that they were only a registration service for OCV, and that they had no power whatsoever over the Funds money. In fact they were providing, nothing more than a data base, for a mailing service.

It looks like we were all well and truly conned in a clever scam, that could only have been set up originally by King and Adams and was cunningly designed to give investors confidence that their money was entrusted to an independent body run arms length from the PIF.

The fact of the matter is we were caught in a Sting, worthy of the Robert Redford and Paul Newman Movie. The arrangement with Perpetual was nothing more than an empty shell.

That Perpetual were prepared to put their good name to this misleading and deceptive scheme is beyond belief.

If there is any justice in the world the people behind this underhanded plan will rot in hell

JADEL, Don't forget that at the Bribane presentation, JH said that she was involved with King in the setting up of the PIF. JH also stated that King was a very clever man.

I anxiously wait for JH to prove that she is really far enough removed from King,MFS, Scott and Octaviar to be credible in her claim of so strongly pursuing our money .... I'm still waiting. come on Jenny! So far from you only words and promises.

selciper · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel -

Just a layman's take on your last post. The Custodians should have sensed that their role was being exaggerated to PIF investors. You'd think in the circumstances that they would be expected to immediately spell out the limitations of their responsibilities to us. Yes, it may be that the "custodian" was simply a bank of programmed computers with laser printers, but there had to be human managers too. I invested money in November 07 when things were turning bad and my certificate bears the Custodian's letterhead. Perhaps Simgrund's points do need a professional follow-up.

DoraNBoots · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Something that bothers me about Perpetual (and of course MFS and WC) is that they were willing to let MFS and WC tell us that we needed to pay $14,000 for Perpetual to provide a copy of a register. Perpetual knew this fee was being asked on their behalf and knew the law states they must not make a profit when supplying it.

When I asked Perpetual who came up with such a ridiculous number they said that both companies agreed on it but admitted it was not right.

Dora.

Javier · 20 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

And yet Jenny stated to me that is was Perpetual that was asking the 14 grand!! Someone is lying!!!

DoraNBoots · 21 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Javier said:
And yet Jenny stated to me that is was Perpetual that was asking the 14 grand!! Someone is lying!!!

When I said both companies agreed on the $14,000, I mean Perpetual and the RE (MFS and WC) agreed to quote this figure. I found Perpetual to be very up front. They were good in answering all my questions without playing games. But as I was saying previously I think it shows bad judgement on Perpetuals part to have agreed to this and allow WC to blame them for the high price.

great dame · 21 July 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Bumblebee said:
JADEL, Don't forget that at the Bribane presentation, JH said that she was involved with King in the setting up of the PIF. JH also stated that King was a very clever man.

I anxiously wait for JH to prove that she is really far enough removed from King,MFS, Scott and Octaviar to be credible in her claim of so strongly pursuing our money .... I'm still waiting. come on Jenny! So far from you only words and promises.

I am still waiting too Bumblebee But i am not holding my breath O by the way the value of PIF is stated at 45cents a drop of 55% from a $1 It deeds to gain 122% to get back to a $1 agaion I cant find any company or fund that has fallen that much got back to any where they were in 7 to 10 years Questain now for unit holders out there If it has to be listered on a exchange which one whould you want the NSX or the ASX ???????????????

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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