Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[mellifuous]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I can honestly say that to date all these skills do not appear to have benefitted PIF investors, quite the contrary IMO. I am interested to see a list of the remaining PIF assets, their current book value and a STRATEGY of how our unit values will be restored to full value in 3-5years because IMO it is not going to happen if there are not changes made to the'current strategy' that is being implemented, but I am just an average person, what would I know? Seamisty

For what it's worth - I think they're all amateurs.

They seem to see opportunity, and they grab it with both hands, especially when it's so easy to take.

 

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

That's my understanding too. But the seller would miss out on any proceeds from ASIC's action - if there are any.

My point is more that someone is going to take a massive loss and at a sniff over merely HALF of Jenny's valuation. Is it a huge vote of no confidence or is the seller just restructuring their financial affairs? Money speaks louder than words.

Forgot about Dexter. Where is he? Like all others of his ilk - vanished as soon as it looks like they will be held to their word.

Dare we draw any hope? There is somebody out there who is prepared to invest over $70k in PIF!!!!

................... and "Duped" some of us are still here, and have eaten Humble Pie!!!

 

[simgrund]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dare we draw any hope? There is somebody out there who is prepared to invest over $70k in PIF!!!!
................... and "Duped" some of us are still here, and have eaten Humble Pie!!!

Hi JohnH,
Sorry to curb your enthusiasm; that offer was made way back in Feb 08.
I would have thought we are past the "Us v Them" stage with most being happy to rub shoulders with each other while standing patiently in the couple of queues formed by ASIC and CA actions.
What WE really need NOW is an assurance that in the event of recovery, the funds recovered be distributed immediately to unitholders.
Preferably via same instrumentality that would have been used for 3c Christmas distribution.
Let’s work on that. Suggestions of first steps???
The call to IAC is still out. Please let this appeal be answered!!!
Cheers, simgrund

 

[selciper]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The IAC, in its present form, appears to be a toothless body which isn't going to help us very much - unless it begin to canvas our concerns expressed on this thread. Hopefully, the AG membership will increase, probably to a point where making some form of face-to-face meeting with the RE will be possible. The thought of another year of obfuscation is decidedly disturbing. ASIC and CA settlements are hardly around the corner. And let's face it, the Law is always unpredictable. Many of us are watching our capital decline while Rome burns.

 

[charles36]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Seamisty, I think you will agree that all the management expertise that is alleged to be behind the Premium Income Fund is engrossed in liquidating the fund by STEALTH or at the very least REDEMPTION BY FORCE. I contend and always have that the return of our own capital cannot be classed as a DISTRIBUTION. We all know that if ever we get 3 cents (22 milliion dollars)of our own money back the floodgates on expenses will open forever more. I have sent a number of emails to WC but for some reason I am persona-non-grata. Oh well, you cannot help bad luck. You never know there may be better days ahead.

 

[mellifuous]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi JohnH,
Sorry to curb your enthusiasm; that offer was made way back in Feb 08.
I would have thought we are past the "Us v Them" stage with most being happy to rub shoulders with each other while standing patiently in the couple of queues formed by ASIC and CA actions.
What WE really need NOW is an assurance that in the event of recovery, the funds recovered be distributed immediately to unitholders.
Preferably via same instrumentality that would have been used for 3c Christmas distribution.
Let’s work on that. Suggestions of first steps???
The call to IAC is still out. Please let this appeal be answered!!!
Cheers, simgrund

Simon,

'the funds recovered distributed immediately'?

I'm perplexed about this - apart from $.03c/unit to be distributed, how do you expect to get more?

I hope you don't mind me asking, but isn't the reason the fund was listed to bring up and the fund and let you get a better share price in the market?

I don't think it's in J.H.'s mind that the fund is going to be wound down.

This is the same problem we have in the FMF with B/T wanting to get a V.U.P. (variable unit price) in play, so they might be able to someone resurrect the carcass of the FMF.

Ah! the plans made for so many by so few.

Allan.

 

[Mary Lynch]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped, I asked John Walker about the situation surrounding the ASIC claim, if we have sold our shares. His response was: "selling your shares doesn't effect your right to claim."

 

[simgrund]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Simon,

'the funds recovered distributed immediately'?

I'm perplexed about this - apart from $.03c/unit to be distributed, how do you expect to get more?......................Allan.

This shouldn't be confusing. Any distributions; 3c onwards, were already designated as "capital return". It follows logic, that should recoveries occur, they must go to u-holders. There is not much argument as to which outcome is of real benefit; immediate distribution or pooling with existing and constantly diminishing funds at the mercy of NSX market forces.
Isn't the CA statement of claim about "compensation" for losses through mismanagement? See Mary's post. And ASIC was successful for Westpointers. The only question to be resolved will be the unit pricing at that time. Any suggestions who will rule on that resolution?
Regards, Simgrund

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

For what it's worth - I think they're all amateurs.

They seem to see opportunity, and they grab it with both hands, especially when it's so easy to take.

Yep. Wannabees everywhere. All mouth and confidence and then fail to deliver anything of quality. But still commanding full price. I see it everywhere. Seems to be the Australian way. I'll give it a go.

Either that or I'm just a mug giving the hacks air while the clued up are cruising past shaking their heads. Am I a mug for retaining the faintest glimmer of hope that WC is not just there to fleece me? (Irrespective of WC themselves believe. My Advisor is still calling me. He's totally deluded. I think he actually genuinely believes that he adds value.) Be honest.

 

[mellifuous]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This shouldn't be confusing. Any distributions; 3c onwards, were already designated as "capital return". It follows logic, that should recoveries occur, they must go to u-holders. There is not much argument as to which outcome is of real benefit; immediate distribution or pooling with existing and constantly diminishing funds at the mercy of NSX market forces.
Isn't the CA statement of claim about "compensation" for losses through mismanagement? See Mary's post. And ASIC was successful for Westpointers. The only question to be resolved will be the unit pricing at that time. Any suggestions who will rule on that resolution?
Regards, Simgrund

Simon,

So, to make it clear my mind, you say that J.H. will return all capital to you (and yes, you are right, there is no income, there can only be capital return to the fund) - she is winding up the fund.

She is winding up the fund to zero?

Allan

 

[Duped]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This shouldn't be confusing. Any distributions; 3c onwards, were already designated as "capital return".

Think I might have asked this before:

Will a 'capital return' to an investor who buys units on the NSX at say 7c be tax free? Anyone?

If so then the current market price of 17.5 - 20c looks even more woeful.

 

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi JohnH,
Sorry to curb your enthusiasm; that offer was made way back in Feb 08.
I would have thought we are past the "Us v Them" stage with most being happy to rub shoulders with each other while standing patiently in the couple of queues formed by ASIC and CA actions.
What WE really need NOW is an assurance that in the event of recovery, the funds recovered be distributed immediately to unitholders.
Preferably via same instrumentality that would have been used for 3c Christmas distribution.
Let’s work on that. Suggestions of first steps???
The call to IAC is still out. Please let this appeal be answered!!!
Cheers, simgrund

Not really enthusiasm Simon, just curious that someone is prepared to Invest $70k+. I assume you mean Feb 09 - not 08, and I'm sure that some of the 11 and 12 cent sellers would have been happier with 17 cents.
re:"Us v Them", I totally agree that is in the past. My point is that several of us who were very strong (misguided) supporters of JH are still using this site.

I also wish my initials were not JH - it could give me a phobia. lol

 

[Dexter]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi John H,

I am still here. While I campaigned against the W.C vote I had enough faith at the time to offer 30c per unit. THANK GOD THERE WERE NO TAKERS.

Now I am trying to unload 880,000 units at 20c, but once again there are no buyers.

Incidently this is almost our entire super fund, so we understand your nightmare. We also would like to get on with our life as a little would be better than nothing.

 

[Cookie1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Just letting you all know that the Icon Apartments in Port Macquarie are now being advertised from $400,000 - $1,200,000, a reduction in the lower priced apartments of $250,000! Looks like fire sale pricing to me - certainly not fair market value. There would be no 3 BR, 3 bath apartments with quality fittings in such a location for sale anywhere in Port Macquarie for only $400K, especially brand new ones.

I may need to go have another look as I was told previously that the builders/contractors were to be finished and off-site by the end of November. They're open tomorrow from 1.00-2.00pm. Will let you know if I can find out anything.

Marcom, have you heard anything about them?

 

[marcom]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Cookie 1, no haven't heard a thing. Not surprised at the price drop as the finish and internal design are below the market. It is such a pity to see such a poorly executed development on one of the prime sites in Port Macquarie.

I still can not understand how the project was valued at $17 M (see earlier post Port News article) when Bloomfield went broke and then ended up at $28M on PIF books. MFS did the deal - another one of Guy's "brilliant" deals!!!!!!

We received an email from our financial advisor about the Wollongong sale and possibility of a distribution he gleaned from the AFR article. He inadvertently included client email addresses - I thought that there were more PIF investors in Port. How many people attended the WC roadshow in Port last year? We were at the Newcastle roadshow.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Just letting you all know that the Icon Apartments in Port Macquarie are now being advertised from $400,000 - $1,200,000, a reduction in the lower priced apartments of $250,000! Looks like fire sale pricing to me - certainly not fair market value. There would be no 3 BR, 3 bath apartments with quality fittings in such a location for sale anywhere in Port Macquarie for only $400K, especially brand new ones.

I may need to go have another look as I was told previously that the builders/contractors were to be finished and off-site by the end of November. They're open tomorrow from 1.00-2.00pm. Will let you know if I can find out anything.

Marcom, have you heard anything about them?

Cookie nothing will surprise me as to what price our RE is prepared to accept for OUR assets after the crap deal finally negotiated for the Wollongong Hotel. Sounds like the cupboards are bare at WC!!

Structure and Strategy::http://www.nsxa.com.au/ftp/news/021721528.pdf
The Fund is now mortgagee in possession of a number of
properties across the Eastern seaboard. The properties range
from vacant land to nearly completed multi-storey hotel and
residential towers. Strategies are being progressively formulated
and implemented, aimed at realising those assets at the maximum
possible value, in the context of the changing dynamics within
the property and finance markets.
What is the strategy?
A number of the security properties will be assets that the Fund
must by necessity retain for at least the medium term. Where this
is not the case, those assets have been earmarked for disposal or
alternative treatment, as appropriate with reference to the
particular characteristics of each asset.
The broad model is to assess the individual assets in respect of
the highest and best use outcome for each. This assessment takes
into account the full range of alternative uses in the context of
present market conditions, prospects for fundamental
improvement in the relevant geographic or market segment, and
the level of interest and quality of potential development
partners.
The Fund’s intention in relation to certain assets is to introduce
experienced and proven developers to the property to enable the
asset to be completed with a view to achieving the highest
possible net asset value for the Fund. This is an investment
strategy that will have a three to five year horizon and the
magnitude of its success will be largely dependant on a gradual
recovery of the property market.
Detailed discussions have occurred with a range of interested
parties in relation to all assets within the portfolio. This process
has given the Fund’s management team a clear set of alternatives
for the key properties in possession. The aim is to reposition
properties appropriately for the next cycle in a way that
maximises the return to Unitholders.
Obviously, the timing of improvement in the property cycle is
inherently uncertain and not something that the Fund can predict
at this time. However, the Fund is well placed to take advantage
of market recovery when it occurs.::::

What a load of BS Jenny, no wonder there are so many unhappy PIF investors. IMO I think you and your team of experienced professionals should reread some of your previous correspondence to investors and present us with a NEW revised structure and strategy (accompanied with an updated list of our assets and their current value, including a list of EVERY single property sold of which investors will not see a cent from as proceeds have been absorbed by WC for 'operating expenses' )because your original one appears to have FAILED big time!! Seamisty

 

[mellifuous]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This shouldn't be confusing. Any distributions; 3c onwards, were already designated as "capital return". It follows logic, that should recoveries occur, they must go to u-holders. There is not much argument as to which outcome is of real benefit; immediate distribution or pooling with existing and constantly diminishing funds at the mercy of NSX market forces.
Isn't the CA statement of claim about "compensation" for losses through mismanagement? See Mary's post. And ASIC was successful for Westpointers. The only question to be resolved will be the unit pricing at that time. Any suggestions who will rule on that resolution?
Regards, Simgrund

Simon,

Well, I can't interpret the proposal as winding up the fund, the only payment that is a quantified is 3c/unit/share payment which hasn't come about (plus the buy back which don't look like it's going to happen).

I'm probably wrong, but it seems that first payment is a 'capital' return, but generally it seems you might be getting your capital offered back as a taxable 'distribution' at other times.

Unit holders are not entitled to anything really, except for the 3%.

You might understand the proposal better than I, but the document is a little scary.

The purpose of listing was to get your money back in the market, not by way of winding up the fund.

Your fund could go on forever.

Allan.

I had a look at J.H.'s proposal, and this was the effect of unit holders accepting the three proposals:-
http://www.moneymagik.com/Wellington.pdf

On page 17:-

"... The outcome for the Fund if all 3 resolutions are passed is:
The Fund will be listed on NSX. Redemption rights will be extinguished completely.

A 3 cent cash payment will be made to Unitholders, with the first payment in October 2008, the second by 24 December 2008 and quarterly
thereafter.

Buy-back of up to 37.75 million units at 45 cents by 18 September 2009.

Wellington Capital Limited will be the new responsible entity. ..."

On page 30:-

"... 3.4 Liquidity
The Fund is admitted to the official list of the National Stock Exchange of Australia (‘NSX’). The Fund currently has 10,387 Unitholders. The proposed trading of Units on the NSX will provide

Unitholders with the ability to trade their Units on the open market. Liquidity is not guaranteed. The size of a fund and its number of unitholders are influencing factors in enhancing interest in market activity. ..."

On page 38:-

"... 4.4 No Cash Payments
While in the past Unitholders in the Fund have invested on the basis that cash payments will be made to Unitholders at various rates, in the current circumstances the responsible entity anticipates being in a position to pay 3 cents per Unit by way of a cash payment by 24 December 2008. ..."

"... 4.6 No Redemptions
Recent events faced by MFS Limited, which is currently suspended from ASX, resulted in a significant increase in the number of Unitholders in the Fund seeking to redeem their funds.

While the Constitution of the Fund currently technically allows for redemptions, the responsible entity has suspended payment on all and any valid withdrawal requests in regard to Units in the Fund for a 360 day period as permitted under the Constitution and is seeking to amend the Constitution to remove Unitholders rights of redemptions as it will be listed on NSX. ..."

On page 57:-

"... Cash Payments to Unitholders
The amounts paid to Unitholders for accounting purposes are treated as a financing cost expense. For taxation purposes, these payments continue to represent distributions under the Income Tax Assessment Act. Unitholder entitlements have been recognised on an accrual basis. ..."

On page 59:-

"... 6.4 Cash payments
The responsible entity intends to make cash payments to Unitholders totalling 3 cents per Unit with the first payment to be made in October 2008, the second in December 2008 and thereafter quarterly.

Due to the significant impairment recognised at 31 May 2008 it is anticipated that the cash distribution will be a capital repayment and tax deferred. See section 9 in relation to taxation issues. ..."

 

[mellifuous]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Simon,]..."

On page 57:-

"... Cash Payments to Unitholders
The amounts paid to Unitholders for accounting purposes are treated as a financing cost expense. For taxation purposes, these payments continue to represent distributions under the Income Tax Assessment Act. Unitholder entitlements have been recognised on an accrual basis. ..."

Now that the fund has listed, I think unit holders are effectively separated from their investments - so, after listing any payments to share holders will be deemed as a 'financing cost' (an expense to the fund) paid as 'distributions'.

Since these funds use the accruals accounting method, even though the payments are not made to share holders, they are accounted for as expenses (that is, recognised on an accrual basis).

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/accruedexpense.asp

On page 6:-

"... Unitholders have a right under the Constitution to call a general meeting and consider other alternatives. If the resolution to change the Constitution is not approved and no alternative option is subsequently presented to and approved by Unitholders the board is of the view that the assets of the Fund will need to be liquidated to enable the net proceeds to be paid to Unitholders. ..."

Seems the fund was listed to avoid winding it up by way of liquidation - so, the dream (at least for the manager) will live on.

 

[Cookie1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Went back to the Icon Apartments in Port Macquarie this afternoon; there were a few couples there having a look, of which one had sold the land to David Bloomfield (the original developer) and "finally got his money". I told him that was better than we've done!

I must apologise for jumping to the conclusion that the price of some of the $650K apartments had been cut by $250,000; in fact, the 2 x townhouses have been added to the sales info and are priced at $400,000. The townhouses are NOT finished and the agent hasn't even been in them yet...so much for the builder being out by the end of November. The townhouses seem to be an afterthought and are down toward the bottom of the hill on the other side of the pool. I'm not sure of access to the townhouses nor parking. The sales material shows no information other than they have 3 bedrooms and are for sale at $400,000.

There is still work to be done on a number of apartments as well. Two were open for viewing on the 1st level and one was open on ground level (but not necessarily for viewing as it is not quite finished; we just wandered in since the door was open). You can check out the apartments on the Ray White website http://www.raywhite.com/cgi-bin/rse...p=10&s=nsw&t=res&tm=1259383677&cu=fn-raywhite

The builder is still on site but we were told expects to be gone before Christmas. My assessment is that unless he can work some magic, I would expect him to be there into 2010.

I was told by the agent that 4 x apartments have been sold and 4 x are under contract according to the sales material. Apparently the developer bought one of the $1.2m penthouses for himself (it would be nice to know what the PIF got for that one!). The 3 x apartments that were on "HOLD" are not on hold any longer and are up for sale.

 

[simgrund]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Simon,

So, to make it clear my mind, you say that J.H. will return all capital to you (and yes, you are right, there is no income, there can only be capital return to the fund) - she is winding up the fund.
She is winding up the fund to zero? Allan

Mellifuous, good day to you!
Firstly thanx to Dexter for backing me up on facts of "OFFER" in Feb '08 (not '09, JohnH).
It will help to clear our minds as to which payments we refer to:
1. those from JH operations
2. those anticipated from current ASIC and CA actions.
In the case of the first, the twice promised 3cents was ALWAYS a payment out of our personal holding in PIF; nominal or otherwise. Not an interest or income payment.
AND in second case, the "any amount" potentially recovered with CA action needs to be classed outside the PIF holding and distributed to u-holders prorata.
We need action on that to prevent this potential recovery falling into the NSX pot.
As to ASIC potential recoveries, this too needs clear statement now. Hopefully, these are agreeable urges.
Regards, simgrund