Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[great dame]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Have now spoken again, and Wellington have confirmed that they still intend to make a payment as near to Oct 31 as possible. As to how much now and how much on 24th 12th, I believe that is why they are hesitant about the exact time. - I suppose it depends on how much that is due to come in, comes in.

John there has not been a X div day yet And after that comes a record day then after that the payment day the time from X div day to payment day is never less then 3 weeks WC has to give date in advance when X div date is also That is the exchange rules i believe .Well its the rules on the ASX anyway i might give them another blast Dane //
J

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

John there has not been a X div day yet And after that comes a record day then after that the payment day the time from X div day to payment day is never less then 3 weeks WC has to give date in advance when X div date is also That is the exchange rules i believe .Well its the rules on the ASX anyway i might give them another blast Dane //
J

The NSX is saying they are not aware of any payment to be made to PIF investors. The X div date must occur for a payment to happen and the record date must be 5 working days after this (inclusive). So if WC don't get on and notify the NSX today of a payment for Friday then it's not going to happen this Friday. But it's also rule of thumb for there to be two weeks between the record date and payment so WC are really falling behind.

BTW: Computershare have on their records a Record Date of 17th Oct 2008 for a cash payment due on 31st Oct of 3 cents per share. This they say is "set in stone". I told them WC are thinking this might be late and I don't think it's going to be 3 cents and they said that's very unusual and they don't think that has happened before. Seems like WC have some work to do, do they ever get anything right?

Can someone please get on to WC and tell them to notify the NSX of the payment.

 

[selciper]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I would telephone WC but cannot do so due to a pressing travel commitment. Frankly, all the contradictory info about this week's due payment is becoming a real concern. Surely WC can use their website to confirm the distribution. They definitely are missing a co-ordinator or two to run the show smoothly. That means that we all suffer.

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I actually had a journalist contact me today for advice to other investors of funds similar to the PIF that are being frozen or failing. Yes folks they are now actually asking us for advice. I did my best in the short conversation with some of the basics of starting an action group, etc. See how it come out IF published.

I advised that the journalist direct any of her readers to this web site ASF.

We have more information to give to other failing funds than we think. We have learnt the hard way, what to do and what not to do. We may be, in some respects pioneers in this area.

So be gentle with any new posters! As we do!

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Courtesy of WC:

New tax statements were issued to unitholders last week. The correct tax statement is the light blue statement which accompanies the October investor update and is dated 20 October 2008. You may also access your tax statement by downloading it from the Computershare investor centre www.investorcentre.com.au.

The variation between the net cash distribution as reported on the tax statement and the total of cash distributions for the period paid to investors reflects income earned in the trust but not distributed. The Premium Income Fund is a trust. For a trust to maintain trust status, all income earned must be distributed to investors and is assessable in the hands of the investors.

The effect of this is that for the 2007/2008 year, not all profit made by the Premium Income Fund was distributed to unitholders. Unfortunately, because of the mechanisms of a trust, regardless of whether the profit was distributed, unitholders must declare it on their tax returns.

 

[sugar3157]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all, can someone tell me if our $1 units now worth only 10 cents on the NSX are declared to social security at only 10 cents....so maybe wecan get some financial help from them?
Also has JH said anything about the new value of 10 cents?
a loss of 90% is just sickening....
she will have to be a miracle worker if she thinks she can turn it back to $1 in 3 to 5 years....mmmmm

also has anyone come up with any info on whether Mr King and associates will ever be made give our money back or be prosicuted and go to jail...?
cheers...

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The NSX is now closed. There won't be a payment on Friday!

The NSX needs one day notice for announcements and then the x div date must be 5 days (inclusive) before the record day. I.E. The NSX must be notified 6 days before a div is to be paid.

The info the NSX has been given by WC is the corrective notice so I was told by the NSX to expect 3 cents by 24 Dec. I asked the NSX if they would follow this up with the Company as we have been lead to believe there will be a payment on Friday. The NSX was not aware of this so I urge people to lodge a complaint with the NSX and let them know what is going on.http://www.nsxa.com.au/complaints.asp

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sorry to intrude. I know you guys are stressed.

Aussie Stock Forums is the premier site for the Aussie Investor.

Lets not let the bastards get us down


Please vote for Aussie Stock Forums at Compareshares
Don't forget to vote everyone... it only takes a few seconds and ASF deserves our support!

Here's the link again: http://www.thebull.com.au/the_stockies/forums.html

gg

To all readers of the PIF thread here on ASF, I encourage you to vote FOR ASF at the computershare click on site:
www.compareshares.com.au/vote_forum.php

Its quick and super easy. I VOTED FOR AUSSIE STOCK FORUMS BECAUSE THEIR WEBSITE IS THE BEST!

 

[Jadel]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped

The odds of finding anybody to buy in an off market transfer

at more than 10c would be higher than finding a live Tasmanian Tiger

at the moment

That is why i did not want to confuse that poor investor .

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi all, can someone tell me if our $1 units now worth only 10 cents on the NSX are declared to social security at only 10 cents....so maybe wecan get some financial help from them?
Also has JH said anything about the new value of 10 cents?

Sugar,

That's a great thought! I actually had another valued PIF AG member bring this up via a phone call today.

The thought put to me was, have we seen the 10-15c value on the NSX consistently enough to ask JH to advise Centrelink (C/L) of this new value over the 45 cent C/L value recorded now?

To the best of my knowledge, WC valued our units at 45c according to the value of assets still in the fund, so those on the assets test get valued at that 45% of former capital assets amount and those who fall into the income test get deemed interest on that 45c amount.

So, who wins out for C/L - what JH values our fund at or what the market values our fund at?

The other question I would ask is, is it really JH's responsibility to advise C/L on behalf of PIF investors receiving a part pension OR is it acceptable for each investor to advise C/L themselves? I ask this question because when my dad had shares before, all he had to do was ring and advise C/L from time to time when the value changed significantly on the ASX, like once every 6 mths and that was enough. All C/L did was to check the current value themselves to verify and they would change his capital amount to be assessed.

Remembering that when JH gave this valuation to C/L, the PIF had not yet been listed on the NSX.

WC will endeavour to pay us 1.5c in the full $ - not 1.5c of 45% of the $. So our 45c (45%) asset remaining amount passed onto C/L does not seem to have any bearing on the how the WC pays distributions.

If the only way we can presently get our money out of the PIF is via the NSX, would not that NSX price then be the funds real value in the eyes of C/L ?

To balance this thought train off, would WC not advise C/L that our assessed amount needs to go up, if our NSX value had increased to say, 60c per unit - you can't have it both ways if this be true

It might boil down to a legal point of how assets are valued for C/L in funds such as ours, but it's certainly worth following up with WC..

But wouldn't it be good if investors could get the 1.5c per qtr. distribution and only get deemed or asseted @ 10-15c based capital, thus receiving more from C/L?

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

A point I would make to those who formerly had fears (& probably still do) about the PIF getting taken over by outside interests buying up units at a very cheap price and thus controlling the fund according to their own interests once these outsiders got controlling unit amounts.

What they and myself for that matter, did not appear to consider, was the good sense and self control of the average investor in our PIF, that being, NOT to sell for ridiculously low offers, even though desperate for cash.

There are VERY FEW SELLERS of units by PIF investors - this bodes well for the PIF! Good on you fellow sensible investors!

 

[ian1328]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I spoke to WC a short time ago and again it was confirmed that a 3c distribution will happen before xmas with the 1st one probably in the week of Nov. When one bears in mind that they have only had control of of the fund for 12 days thru an unnesessary delay surely a week late on their first distribution is acceptable. Misleading information on this thread about no payments caused a rush of phone calls and panic which helps no-one. Not forgetting there was a court case also about their operation.

Its about time we investors let WC get on with their job and stop negativity, other companies are falling by the wayside with no one to pick. Give WC a chance and see what happens. Very few people have the knowledge, credentials and experience of Jenny H. She deserves some respect.

I spoke also about the 50mil support facility and was told that negotiations are happening and when an agreement is reached it will be paid to investors.
As for the 147mil, whatever is agreed there will be added to the fund.

The 'member presentation ' is still going to but again there has only been 12 days of control so the give them a break.

I suggested that they put information on their website re court dates etc and they are going to look into this.

Regarding Raptis no money has been lost, it is being re paid, albeit under a different time frame.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Wellington has had control of the Fund since early June - that's 5 months not 12 days. Five months is sufficient time to get organised and plan future operations.

As far as any delay caused by the legal action instigated by ASIC, this should not have affected their operations, and in fact it could have been avoided totally had Wellington prepared clearly understandable and precise information to unit holders. They only have themselves to blame.

So called "misleading" information on this thread has been directly generated by Wellington via the information their staff are giving out. Often contradicting themselves and not giving any firm assurances. Regarding cash payments, confirmation from WC has been received previously and it has amounted to nothing.

Information now being given by WC in relation to the claims on Octaviar is yet another example of contradictory and misleading information. JH has made statements in the press that acceptance of their offer has been made, yet she is still telling us that agreements have yet to be finalised. What about the legal action against them ? As usual we are left guessing.

Unit holders voted for Wellingtons resolutions - with the encouragement of PIF Action Group. Unit holders did this believing the promises of October and December cash payments; listing on the NSX to provide liquidity and to allow those that needed to retrieve their investment a way to do it; that the units were valued at 45c and that this value would increase.

The current situation is no cash payment in October ("probably" December), no liquidity on the NSX and desperate unit holders can only retrieve 10c / unit at best, the value of each unit has dropped to 10c (as determined by the market).

What advice would PIF AG give to investors in other failing funds - "support every comment and action of your fund manager, then close your eyes and cross your fingers and hope for the best".

 

[SPLITPIN]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sugar,

That's a great thought! I actually had another valued PIF AG member bring this up via a phone call today.

The thought put to me was, have we seen the 10-15c value on the NSX consistently enough to ask JH to advise Centrelink (C/L) of this new value over the 45 cent C/L value recorded now?

But wouldn't it be good if investors could get the 1.5c per qtr. distribution and only get deemed or asseted @ 10-15c based capital, thus receiving more from C/L?

Breaker 1

Maybe who ever put up the .45c units did not think it through and all some people have to do is accept .10c.

From my friend up the road calculations as posted previously, is means no difference as he is now back to the basic pension from below that.

So it appears unit holders with very subtational investments in PIF and other failing areas would be the only ones considering selling (and see the units traded at .10/.15c) at this point in time, just to gain some income to exist from centerlink.

Maybe fait accompli.

Regards


Splitpin

 

[k.smith]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

..WC returned my call today, and I was told we will definitely be receiving our Oct. distribution soon, they told me that JH is very confident re; our fund....EVEN IN THIS ECONOMIC CLIMATE..."there are some great opportunities out there"...I am also in City Pacific, and I would rather be in WC at the moment. I really wonder now all this has happened, is it really worth "saving for retirement?" It seems to me that all investors who were not happy to accept the bank rates over the last 10 years or so of what?5% and invested in 2nd tier investments are now being punished and I would ask how much Capital would it take to provide a Modest Income if you are only getting 5% interest.....?What chance would most people have of achieving such a sum? It is enough to make one think WHY BOTHER busting yourself to be financially independant, you could have a good time just spending, spending, spending! all your working life, and age 65! age pension....you might have worries about how far it goes but LOOK AT US NOW!!!!! Perhaps we could lobby the government for a $15,000 "down and out pensioner" home grant, lets face it, its our taxes!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SPLITPIN]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

..What chance would most people have of achieving such a sum? It is enough to make one think WHY BOTHER busting yourself to be financially independant, you could have a good time just spending, spending, spending! all your working life, and age 65! age pension....you might have worries about how far it goes but LOOK AT US NOW!!!!! Perhaps we could lobby the government for a $15,000 "down and out pensioner" home grant, lets face it, its our taxes!!!!!!!!!!

Dear K.Smith

Remember when you paid tax and on the taxation form it stated "retirement tax" or something to that effect and there were special tax's here and there etc

Did you note some years later the wording changes and the tax changes etc to GST and then compulsary superanuation and so on.

Where you are a good person who worked harder than ever later in life for some certaintity for a quality of life in retirement.

Was it a bloody waste of time and effort with the last 15 years of your life effort being been taken by Robber Baron's with the government's approval.

Do you intend to go into retirement with nothing but the pension.

If so, you sound just like me.


Regards


Splitpin

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Breaker 1

Maybe who ever put up the .45c units did not think it through and all some people have to do is accept .10c.

From my friend up the road calculations as posted previously, is means no difference as he is now back to the basic pension from below that.

So it appears unit holders with very subtational investments in PIF and other failing areas would be the only ones considering selling (and see the units traded at .10/.15c) at this point in time, just to gain some income to exist from centerlink.

Maybe fait accompli.

Regards


Splitpin

It's not good that your friend could not get any benefit from a 10-15c in $ valuation with C/L, but it's great he/she gets a full pension after being on a part pension. I take it that because JH got C/L to revalue from $1 down to
.45c ? If so, that at least is one good thing that many pensioner PIF investors are happy with.

Are you saying that there may have to actually be a significant number of PIF investors selling their units @ .10-.15 cents before we might get a valuation at that amount, rather than just offers at that amount (which makes sense)? If so I trust you might volunteer here - only kidding?

No I don't think too many would be interested in sacrificing their units for a gain in their pensions. Perhaps there may be a well to do philanthropist PIF investor out there who wants to pay for his sins - I know some Freemasons have this philosophy. Heh! Heh!

 

[Juan Mortyme]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Article in The Australian by Stuart Wilson:
(note the last paragraph)

---------------------------------
Deposit guarantee can't please everyone

SHAREHOLDER: Stuart Wilson | October 28, 2008

THE idea of a deposit guarantee was always going to put the Government between a rock and a hard place.

The guarantee is necessary because, like it or not, we are in a global financial marketplace. The know-it-alls that are criticising the decision to offer a guarantee are ignoring the fact that others, including Britain and several European countries, had already stepped up to the plate. This effectively took the decision away from us. Imagine where the Australian dollar would be now if there was no guarantee -- the fund outflows from Australian banks would be similar to, but on a much grander scale than, those being experienced by mortgage trusts right now.

There was always going to be an issue over which investments fell under the guarantee and which were left out in the cold.

Australia has had a robust and highly competitive finance industry for many years. That competition has led to product differentiation resulting in a spectrum of investments people can choose from with different risk and return combinations.

That means that wherever the Government draws the line, there will be a bunch of investments that just miss out on the guarantee, and will whinge about it. Their complaints will centre on the fact that the guarantee has materially changed their risk profile, and that this will in turn see an increase in redemptions.

Mortgage trusts are one of the asset classes that fall just outside the guarantee, and reports are filtering through that up to $25 billion worth of these funds have already been frozen -- all to stop a mass exodus in favour of guaranteed products. Within a week this could easily spread to all mortgage funds. Why wouldn't it?

This does not automatically mean that the Government should extend the guarantee to these funds, because there will always be those on the wrong side of the line drawn in the sand.

There are a number of property funds that have suspended redemptions for the very same reason as the mortgage trusts, including some provided by Mirvac and Macquarie Bank. Should the guarantee be extended to them, too, using the same logic? What about listed property trusts, which simply have a different structure? It is easy to see the danger of having a creeping guarantee.

The mortgage trusts need to look elsewhere to find a solution to their predicament. Some, such as Axa, Colonial First State and Perpetual, have relatively strong issuers behind them. Perhaps, for a fee of its own, the manager's parent could offer its own guarantee to stem the tide of outflows. They could even consider short-term funding in order to facilitate a smooth redemption process.

But perhaps they should avoid any inclination to follow the Octaviar Premium Income Fund down the road of making the fund close-ended and listing on a minor stock exchange. Investors who fell for the manager's line that this would provide liquidity and give their fund a better alternative to liquidation, are unlikely to confront the truth -- there has been just $900 worth of trades since the fund listed two weeks ago. If they were to sell at market now, they would receive just 10c in the dollar, if they are quick.

Stuart Wilson is the chief executive of the Australian Shareholders Association

----------end of article-------------

direct link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24561201-36418,00.html

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Article in The Australian by Stuart Wilson:
(note the last paragraph)

---------------------------------
Deposit guarantee can't please everyone

SHAREHOLDER: Stuart Wilson | October 28, 2008

THE idea of a deposit guarantee was always going to put the Government between a rock and a hard place.

The guarantee is necessary because, like it or not, we are in a global financial marketplace. The know-it-alls that are criticising the decision to offer a guarantee are ignoring the fact that others, including Britain and several European countries, had already stepped up to the plate. This effectively took the decision away from us. Imagine where the Australian dollar would be now if there was no guarantee -- the fund outflows from Australian banks would be similar to, but on a much grander scale than, those being experienced by mortgage trusts right now.

There was always going to be an issue over which investments fell under the guarantee and which were left out in the cold.

Australia has had a robust and highly competitive finance industry for many years. That competition has led to product differentiation resulting in a spectrum of investments people can choose from with different risk and return combinations.

That means that wherever the Government draws the line, there will be a bunch of investments that just miss out on the guarantee, and will whinge about it. Their complaints will centre on the fact that the guarantee has materially changed their risk profile, and that this will in turn see an increase in redemptions.

Mortgage trusts are one of the asset classes that fall just outside the guarantee, and reports are filtering through that up to $25 billion worth of these funds have already been frozen -- all to stop a mass exodus in favour of guaranteed products. Within a week this could easily spread to all mortgage funds. Why wouldn't it?

This does not automatically mean that the Government should extend the guarantee to these funds, because there will always be those on the wrong side of the line drawn in the sand.

There are a number of property funds that have suspended redemptions for the very same reason as the mortgage trusts, including some provided by Mirvac and Macquarie Bank. Should the guarantee be extended to them, too, using the same logic? What about listed property trusts, which simply have a different structure? It is easy to see the danger of having a creeping guarantee.

The mortgage trusts need to look elsewhere to find a solution to their predicament. Some, such as Axa, Colonial First State and Perpetual, have relatively strong issuers behind them. Perhaps, for a fee of its own, the manager's parent could offer its own guarantee to stem the tide of outflows. They could even consider short-term funding in order to facilitate a smooth redemption process.

But perhaps they should avoid any inclination to follow the Octaviar Premium Income Fund down the road of making the fund close-ended and listing on a minor stock exchange. Investors who fell for the manager's line that this would provide liquidity and give their fund a better alternative to liquidation, are unlikely to confront the truth -- there has been just $900 worth of trades since the fund listed two weeks ago. If they were to sell at market now, they would receive just 10c in the dollar, if they are quick.

Stuart Wilson is the chief executive of the Australian Shareholders Association

----------end of article-------------

direct link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24561201-36418,00.html

This is serious business now, Why! because as soon as the Commonwealth Government started giving guarantees to ONLY banks, THEY became the ones responsible for causing the main panic of investors fleeing their non bank funds. Therefore I feel they are culpable in this growing mess and are morally bound to include non bank funds as well in their guarantees or have some mechanism to assist.

I still cannot believe that the taxpayer has to fund failing private banks, that is tantamount to Communist Socialism and control by of our nation by the banking elite. I still cannot believe that the government has NOT set sensible limits on the funds guaranteed. And if Commonwealth guarantees are to happen, then it should be spread as evenly across the board of all savings/investment type funds to be equitable and fair to the general public and to make that happen, it should be limited in value of funds guranteed across the board. Is a common investor in a motgage type fund to be penalised for NOT chosing a bank for his interest - how arbitrary, unfair and ridiculous?

This government favouratism was predictably going to ruin funds such as the PIF, AXA, Perpetual, etc. This I predict is further going to dampen interest in NSX sales for the PIF.

I heard that over 1 trillion dollars of the nations savings were at stake. What will happen if a good number of banks go bust and investors call in the governments guarantees ? - this country will become a banana republic! and the new currency we use will probaly be the Yen.

Doesn't this show up a truth - that the banks own our government and have for a long time!!! Where do you think Premier Bob Carr went after he sold government assets to the banks - thats right, MacQuarie Bank for a salary of $2 million a year!

 

[like2ski]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Article in The Australian by Stuart Wilson:
(note the last paragraph)

---------------------------------
Deposit guarantee can't please everyone

SHAREHOLDER: Stuart Wilson | October 28, 2008

THE idea of a deposit guarantee was always going to put the Government between a rock and a hard place.

The guarantee is necessary because, like it or not, we are in a global financial marketplace. The know-it-alls that are criticising the decision to offer a guarantee are ignoring the fact that others, including Britain and several European countries, had already stepped up to the plate. This effectively took the decision away from us. Imagine where the Australian dollar would be now if there was no guarantee -- the fund outflows from Australian banks would be similar to, but on a much grander scale than, those being experienced by mortgage trusts right now.

There was always going to be an issue over which investments fell under the guarantee and which were left out in the cold.

Australia has had a robust and highly competitive finance industry for many years. That competition has led to product differentiation resulting in a spectrum of investments people can choose from with different risk and return combinations.

That means that wherever the Government draws the line, there will be a bunch of investments that just miss out on the guarantee, and will whinge about it. Their complaints will centre on the fact that the guarantee has materially changed their risk profile, and that this will in turn see an increase in redemptions.

Mortgage trusts are one of the asset classes that fall just outside the guarantee, and reports are filtering through that up to $25 billion worth of these funds have already been frozen -- all to stop a mass exodus in favour of guaranteed products. Within a week this could easily spread to all mortgage funds. Why wouldn't it?

This does not automatically mean that the Government should extend the guarantee to these funds, because there will always be those on the wrong side of the line drawn in the sand.

There are a number of property funds that have suspended redemptions for the very same reason as the mortgage trusts, including some provided by Mirvac and Macquarie Bank. Should the guarantee be extended to them, too, using the same logic? What about listed property trusts, which simply have a different structure? It is easy to see the danger of having a creeping guarantee.

The mortgage trusts need to look elsewhere to find a solution to their predicament. Some, such as Axa, Colonial First State and Perpetual, have relatively strong issuers behind them. Perhaps, for a fee of its own, the manager's parent could offer its own guarantee to stem the tide of outflows. They could even consider short-term funding in order to facilitate a smooth redemption process.

But perhaps they should avoid any inclination to follow the Octaviar Premium Income Fund down the road of making the fund close-ended and listing on a minor stock exchange. Investors who fell for the manager's line that this would provide liquidity and give their fund a better alternative to liquidation, are unlikely to confront the truth -- there has been just $900 worth of trades since the fund listed two weeks ago. If they were to sell at market now, they would receive just 10c in the dollar, if they are quick.

Stuart Wilson is the chief executive of the Australian Shareholders Association

----------end of article-------------

direct link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24561201-36418,00.html

Hi Juan,
Looks like Stewart Wilson is right on the money and has certainly understood the psyche of many of our unit holders. What a pity !!!!!