Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I admire what the "No" voters are trying to do - but talk about brinkmanship! The last guy I saw playing this game was Saddam Hussein and you know what happened to him.

JH has made it very clear and put it in writing, she can handle a No vote on Resolutions 2 & 3, but not on Res 1, that's where JH is clearly drawing the line. A No vote on Res 1 and she takes her bat and WC and goes home.

I am NOT happy with WC changing the constitution in Res 1, Jenny Hutson did not need to go out of her way to unnecessarily bend our noses out of joint, it is an indication JH is not 100% for PIF investors and wants to overly protect herself.

Nevertheless, if you want JH and not the constitution changes, I think you are asking to have your cake and eat it and that's not being real at this late stage. If you think you can have both WC & vote No! on Res 1 and are certain of it, good luck to you, I hope you have a breakthrough! If your not certain of it, common sense should prevail.

I'm sorry, but there are too many investors who don't want to gamble their investment on a Res.1 no vote, with it's inherent unknown and unsold quantities. JH is offering 13% interest (6c pa in writing) + a possible special distribution interest on our investment and those on a pension are only being deemed @ 45% of former investment, making a substantial saving there. Also a + 45c X10,000 for the cash strapped, then those same cash strapped can look forward to regular distributions to keep them going.

When we first started this thread in mid May, going by press reports, we investors were envisaging 5-15c in the $ at best, with the continual threat of liquidation and a blackout of information. I thought that if we could get 40-50cents in the dollar I would be thankful. I did not think that I may still get around half my investment back more or less (albeit years down the track) and a 6c pa distribution. For what its worth that is a genuine improvement from a seriously battered and much abused fund.

At this late stage, the PIF AG can't drag this debate out any longer without giving solid guidance to AG members and ASF readers:

In the absence of an alternative excellent RE, with concrete proposals superior to WC, current feeling amongst the majority of PIF AG organisers is to vote as follows:

Resolutions
Item 1 - vote For (as this will retain WC as RE at a critical time and guarantee avoiding any possibility of a 14c in $ liquidation or any liquidation at risk of very low return)

Item 2 - vote For (as this will allow access to the 45c in $ for those who need a small injection of cash urgently)

Item 3 - vote Against (as this will allow PIF investors to try and remove WC as RE if it is not performing, without the 2% penalty)


:xmaswave

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The PWC assesed value of 65cents per unit is only if the full amount of $147.5 million was recovered from OCV. WC has not completed the negotiations (to my knowledge) and has indicated that Quote page 60 of the Explanatory Memorandum:::If the cash offer were accepted as proposed, the Fund would receive $44.4 million and all legal
action against MFS in relation to the Support Facility ($50 million) and the claim commenced on 24
June 2008 ($147.5 million) would be at an end.MFS’ offer to the Premium Income Fund is also dependent upon all other creditors of MFS agreeing
to compromise what is currently due to them. If for example, only 4 of the 5 creditors owed money
by MFS reached agreement the offer to the Premium Income Fund could not proceed.
MFS has clearly indicated that if agreement is not reached, MFS will be wound up. This alternative
is not economically desirable from the Premium Income Fund’s perspective as on a winding up it is
estimated by MFS that the return to the Premium Income Fund would be 11.8 cents per $1.00
outstanding. The timing of the payments would also be very uncertain::::: Therefore in my opinion until such times as this is finalised, 65cents valuation is highly unlikely and the figure you should be using as a base is 45cents per unit. The anticipated distribution is 6cents per unit which I think on a 45cent valuation is an annual return of 13.5%. Who do you propose will conduct this orderly windup and at what cost? WC has told me they are not in the business of Fund Liquidation or Orderly windups. I am opposed to a wind up of any description until such times as the Fund and the economy has stabilised and only then if the current RE proves to be inept or negligent. I have voted Y Y N and will post my form tomorrow. Thankyou for all the effort you have taken for those that want an orderly liquidation of the Fund ,but I think I can do much better by sticking with JH long term. By the way, where is Iceman, 4 powerballs between 29th and 30th Aug and he was out of here!!!!!Seamisty

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'm sorry Breaker1 but some of your beliefs are quite unfounded. It is a shame that you and others are basing your beliefs on things that are just not true.
E.G. the 6c p.a. return has not been guaranteed by WCIM. In fact, in the memorandum on pages 6 & 38 it is clearly written that even the 3c distribution by 24 Dec. is only "anticipated". Quarterly distributions after this are also only "anticipated" and no amount is stated. A distribution will be paid in October I am sure, because as Mutchy has stated, this is when WCIM's income commences.
E.G. the buy back scheme proposed does not mean that unitholders will receive $4,500. They state on page 15 that 37.75 mil units max. will be bought back. There are 10,387 unitholders (p.11). 37,750,000 / 10,387 = 3634 units @ 45c = $1635.10 sometime within the next 12 months (wooppee).
E.G. The RE cannot walk away from the Fund. Sect.601FL of the Corporations Act protects us from this. It states that the RE of a registered scheme must remain the RE until another appointed RE is registered with ASIC.
Also, the 14c 5 month liquidation is a threat to scare people into voting yes.

Mutchy's proposition is the way to go. Those that want a long term investment can take their money as they receive it during a wind up and invest it elsewhere.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

THANK YOU MUTCHY FOR YOUR WELL WRITTEN POST 2222. What you have put forward and proposed is well thought out and researched and is supported by fact and logic and law. This is the best and fairest way to go for all unitholders.
Could I suggest though that you and other like minded unitholders contact the PIF Initiative Incorporated at PIFInitiative@gmail.com
Cheers and thank you for making this so clear to everyone.

 

[DoraNBoots]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks so much for your post Mutchy! I will put my name to such action.
Please feel free to use the Brisbane AG email address if one is needed.

 

[sugar3157]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Seamisty... check your private messages please...thanks Sugar...

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The PWC assesed value of 65cents per unit is only if the full amount of $147.5 million was recovered from OCV. WC has not completed the negotiations (to my knowledge) and has indicated that Quote page 60 of the Explanatory Memorandum:::If the cash offer were accepted as proposed, the Fund would receive $44.4 million and all legal
action against MFS in relation to the Support Facility ($50 million) and the claim commenced on 24
June 2008 ($147.5 million) would be at an end.MFS’ offer to the Premium Income Fund is also dependent upon all other creditors of MFS agreeing
to compromise what is currently due to them. If for example, only 4 of the 5 creditors owed money
by MFS reached agreement the offer to the Premium Income Fund could not proceed.
MFS has clearly indicated that if agreement is not reached, MFS will be wound up. This alternative
is not economically desirable from the Premium Income Fund’s perspective as on a winding up it is
estimated by MFS that the return to the Premium Income Fund would be 11.8 cents per $1.00
outstanding. The timing of the payments would also be very uncertain::::: Therefore in my opinion until such times as this is finalised, 65cents valuation is highly unlikely and the figure you should be using as a base is 45cents per unit. The anticipated distribution is 6cents per unit which I think on a 45cent valuation is an annual return of 13.5%. Who do you propose will conduct this orderly windup and at what cost? WC has told me they are not in the business of Fund Liquidation or Orderly windups. I am opposed to a wind up of any description until such times as the Fund and the economy has stabilised and only then if the current RE proves to be inept or negligent. I have voted Y Y N and will post my form tomorrow. Thankyou for all the effort you have taken for those that want an orderly liquidation of the Fund ,but I think I can do much better by sticking with JH long term. By the way, where is Iceman, 4 powerballs between 29th and 30th Aug and he was out of here!!!!!Seamisty

Thank you Seamisty for your posts. Glad to hear that you have made enough money on past investments with MFS to be able to afford to take a loss here (as per previous posts) and that you can afford to wait an indefinate period of time to recoup a percentage your funds. Lucky you. Unfortunately for many, many unitholders they cannot afford either of these options. They can't afford to wait around, they can't afford to hope that "anticipated" distributions may happen, they can't afford to have their money locked away indefinately. Most of us do not want to give up our current rights, and to be at the mercy of the NSX market if we become really desperate. We believe an orderly wind up, carried out with the ultimate objective to return the most amount of capital to investors as it is realised, in a manner that is conducted purely with the best interests of unitholders (and no one else) in mind, is the best option. Those that want to invest long term can take their money as it comes in and invest it elsewhere.
Thanks and happy sailing.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thank you Seamisty for your posts. Glad to hear that you have made enough money on past investments with MFS to be able to afford to take a loss here (as per previous posts) and that you can afford to wait an indefinate period of time to recoup a percentage your funds. Lucky you. Unfortunately for many, many unitholders they cannot afford either of these options. They can't afford to wait around, they can't afford to hope that "anticipated" distributions may happen, they can't afford to have their money locked away indefinately. Most of us do not want to give up our current rights, and to be at the mercy of the NSX market if we become really desperate. We believe an orderly wind up, carried out with the ultimate objective to return the most amount of capital to investors as it is realised, in a manner that is conducted purely with the best interests of unitholders (and no one else) in mind, is the best option. Those that want to invest long term can take their money as it comes in and invest it elsewhere.
Thanks and happy sailing.

Your welcome burnt, with so many like minded investors out there as yourself, you should romp in the vote for an orderly, costly liquidation with nothing in writing of the anticipated unit value at the end, carried out by an unidentified source. Seamisty

 

[JohnH]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

HI ALL Its going to take a lot will power not to tell all you good folk out there who voted Y Y N in maybe a years time WELL I TOLD YOU SO injoy your day Cheers / Dane //

GD, Boots , Burnt and all others voting for a "no" to number 1. I have been at the wrong end of 3 liquidations over the last 30 years, and surprise, surprise, the only people who made anything out of it were the IR in two cases ( UK equivalent of ATO) and the appointed receivers - all three. I can well understand that you want to get what money you can out of this debacle. Many similar funds (look at Challenger, AMP. Colonial, or APN Property) are all showing losses of up to 43% in value over two years, even more over one. So at 45 cents PIF is not that worse off. With good management (which I believe Wellington can give) there is a good chance that we can maintain not an exceptional (which has been had in the past) but an acceptable interim return for our investments.
There are plenty of other opportunities out there for someone of Jenny’s calibre, and I believe it would be foolish to encourage her to walk away by showing a lack of confidence in her ability.

If we make it too hard for her, she will put it into the too hard basket, and concentrate her efforts on something that is easier and more appreciative of her talents.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hey Seamisty, thank you very much for your vote of confidence. Warms my heart. By the way, we're not in favour of a quick "liquidation", just an orderly wind up over time. Also, the term "costly" needs to be clarified. Administrators normally charge a set fee, not a % of funds or a % of assets or the net fund profits (which is what the fund was subjected to in the past). Under Wellington's control, over a 5 year period, the fund will end up paying them between $10 - $12 mil. + costs + fees paid to external managers. That sounds pretty costly to me.
And hey, we already have it in writing that the value of units is between 45c & 65c.
Also, had anyone out there heard of Wellington Capital before this all came about ?

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I'm sorry Breaker1 but some of your beliefs are quite unfounded. It is a shame that you and others are basing your beliefs on things that are just not true.
E.G. the 6c p.a. return has not been guaranteed by WCIM. In fact, in the memorandum on pages 6 & 38 it is clearly written that even the 3c distribution by 24 Dec. is only "anticipated". Quarterly distributions after this are also only "anticipated" and no amount is stated. A distribution will be paid in October I am sure, because as Mutchy has stated, this is when WCIM's income commences.
E.G. the buy back scheme proposed does not mean that unitholders will receive $4,500. They state on page 15 that 37.75 mil units max. will be bought back. There are 10,387 unitholders (p.11). 37,750,000 / 10,387 = 3634 units @ 45c = $1635.10 sometime within the next 12 months (wooppee).
E.G. The RE cannot walk away from the Fund. Sect.601FL of the Corporations Act protects us from this. It states that the RE of a registered scheme must remain the RE until another appointed RE is registered with ASIC.
Also, the 14c 5 month liquidation is a threat to scare people into voting yes.

Mutchy's proposition is the way to go. Those that want a long term investment can take their money as they receive it during a wind up and invest it elsewhere.

No return can be guaranteed from funds such as this, most PDS's make legal mention of this in clauses to cover themselves and you should know that. So why are you making comments guaranteed to mislead readers into thinking their must be something seriously wrong if an interest rate target is not guaranteed?

As to the 45c X 10,000 unit buyback offer, I have made it quiet clear in a previous post that if the demand is high that the units on offer are pro rata and most readers are aware of that, I don't want to write a war and peace novel here.

What you seem to be missing is not when Jenny will eventually walk, but that we could end up with a last minute, dredged up, RE much worse than her! You know you can't guarantee that distinct possibility and we investors would be extremely foolish to gamble on such unknowns.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hey Seamisty, thank you very much for your vote of confidence. Warms my heart. By the way, we're not in favour of a quick "liquidation", just an orderly wind up over time. Also, the term "costly" is needs to be clarified. Administrators normally charge a set fee, not a % of funds or a % of assets or a % of fund profits (which is what the fund was subjected to in the past). Under Wellington's control, over a 5 year period, the fund will end up paying them between $10 - $12 mil. + costs + fees paid to external managers. That sounds pretty costly to me.
And hey, we already have it in writing that the value of units is between 45c & 65c.
Also, had anyone out there heard of Wellington Capital before this all came about ?

I have never mentioned the word 'QUICK' burnt, it was 'ORDERLY' liquidation.The 65cent valuation was only in the event of the Fund remaining a going concern and if the full $147.5 million was recovered from OCV. Neither of these have happened to date, and the going concern certainly won't when the orderly liquidation commences. I doubt very much if the 147.5million will ever be recovered in full, quote page 60, explanatory memorandum:::If the cash offer were accepted as proposed, the Fund would receive $44.4 million and all legal
action against MFS in relation to the Support Facility ($50 million) and the claim commenced on 24
June 2008 ($147.5 million) would be at an end. :::: The proposed management fee by WC of .7% is a long way short of the 2.47% we agreed to pay MFS/OCV to rip us off. Also, if you are so concerned as to the discl sed manangement fee to operate the Fund, I would have thought it more important to get an 'anticipated' orderly liquidation fee in writing before agreeing to it. Cheers, Seamisty

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

No return can be guaranteed from funds such as this, most PDS's make legal mention of this in clauses to cover themselves and you should know that. So why are you making comments guaranteed to mislead readers into thinking their must be something seriously wrong if an interest rate target is not guaranteed?

As to the 45c X 10,000 unit buyback offer, I have made it quiet clear in a previous post that if the demand is high that the units on offer are pro rata and most readers are aware of that, I don't want to write a war and peace novel here.

What you seem to be missing is not when Jenny will eventually walk, but that we could end up with a last minute, dredged up, RE much worse than her! You know you can't guarantee that distinct possibility and we investors would be extremely foolish to gamble on such unknowns.

Hi Breaker1.
You are incorrect - I have not insinuated that something is seriously wrong because the interest rate target is not guaranteed. What I am saying is I think you might be the one misleading readers by not qualifying YOUR STATEMENT that JH is offering 13.5% (6c pa in writing). Remember, nothing is guaranteed - I'm aware of this, you're aware of it, Wellington is aware of it because they use the word "anticipate" - why not state this in the statements you are making.
And I don't think readers should be mislead that the buy back is doing them any favours.
ALSO, I can guarantee that if JH decides that Wellington wants to resign from RE position (will not look good), WE GET TO CHOOSE the replacement RE. They don't. If Wellington does not have an alternative plan to offer should they loose, then in my opinion, they are very unprofessional. At the moment we have rights to determine what happens with OUR FUND - WE OWN IT !!! Don't encourage people to give up those rights.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Breaker1.
You are incorrect - I have not insinuated that something is seriously wrong because the interest rate target is not guaranteed. What I am saying is I think you might be the one misleading readers by not qualifying YOUR STATEMENT that JH is offering 13.5% (6c pa in writing). Remember, nothing is guaranteed - I'm aware of this, you're aware of it, Wellington is aware of it because they use the word "anticipate" - why not state this in the statements you are making.
And I don't think readers should be mislead that the buy back is doing them any favours.
ALSO, I can guarantee that if JH decides that Wellington wants to resign from RE position (will not look good), WE GET TO CHOOSE the replacement RE. They don't. If Wellington does not have an alternative plan to offer should they loose, then in my opinion, they are very unprofessional. At the moment we have rights to determine what happens with OUR FUND - WE OWN IT !!! Don't encourage people to give up those rights.

Unit holders currently own the units, the RE currently own the right to manage those units.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I have never mentioned the word 'QUICK' burnt, it was 'ORDERLY' liquidation.The 65cent valuation was only in the event of the Fund remaining a going concern and if the full $147.5 million was recovered from OCV. Neither of these have happened to date, and the going concern certainly won't when the orderly liquidation commences. I doubt very much if the 147.5million will ever be recovered in full, quote page 60, explanatory memorandum:::If the cash offer were accepted as proposed, the Fund would receive $44.4 million and all legal
action against MFS in relation to the Support Facility ($50 million) and the claim commenced on 24
June 2008 ($147.5 million) would be at an end. :::: The proposed management fee by WC of .7% is a long way short of the 2.47% we agreed to pay MFS/OCV to rip us off. Also, if you are so concerned as to the discl sed manangement fee to operate the Fund, I would have thought it more important to get an 'anticipated' orderly liquidation fee in writing before agreeing to it. Cheers, Seamisty

Hi Seamisty, sorry for the "quick" comment but I see that as being the difference between "liquidation" and "administration". An administrator's role is to manage the fund as any other manager would, to achieve income where possible and to realise assets when an optimum price is achievable. They act in the best interest of unitholders. They pursue all debts owed to the fund in the same manner you would expect any other manager too if they are acting in unitholders' best intersts.
As far as valuations are concerned, who really knows. We have not been provided with audited financial information nor "independent" valuations.
As far as management fees are concerned, I totally agree with you that MFS ripped the fund off blind. Why set this as a benchmark. And of course, an administrator's fees would have to be submitted in writing and would possibly be open to negotiation. Nothing seems to be negotiable with Wellington.
Cheers.

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Unit holders currently own the units, the RE currently own the right to manage those units.

Yes, you are right. Unitholders own the units, i.e. all the money in the fund. RE owns the right to manage that money, but their duty under the law is to act in OUR BEST INTERESTS, and we have the right to have a say in what our best interests are. Also note that the RE has the right to change the constitution at any time without a vote by unitholders if they feel that it is in the unitholders BEST INTERESTS. If they feel that doing what they propose is genuinely in the best interests of unitholders, why are they asking us to vote on it.

 

[seamisty]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes, you are right. Unitholders own the units, i.e. all the money in the fund. RE owns the right to manage that money, but their duty under the law is to act in OUR BEST INTERESTS, and we have the right to have a say in what our best interests are. Also note that the RE has the right to change the constitution at any time without a vote by unitholders if they feel that it is in the unitholders BEST INTERESTS. If they feel that doing what they propose is genuinely in the best interests of unitholders, why are they asking us to vote on it.

Well we have all been insisting on transparency and openness, so hey, they give us that and you are suspicious and looking for hidden agendas. HELLO, for a minority, it will not matter what WC do, it will be WRONG!!!! GET OVER IT!!!

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Breaker1.
You are incorrect - I have not insinuated that something is seriously wrong because the interest rate target is not guaranteed. What I am saying is I think you might be the one misleading readers by not qualifying YOUR STATEMENT that JH is offering 13.5% (6c pa in writing). Remember, nothing is guaranteed - I'm aware of this, you're aware of it, Wellington is aware of it because they use the word "anticipate" - why not state this in the statements you are making.
And I don't think readers should be mislead that the buy back is doing them any favours.
ALSO, I can guarantee that if JH decides that Wellington wants to resign from RE position (will not look good), WE GET TO CHOOSE the replacement RE. They don't. If Wellington does not have an alternative plan to offer should they loose, then in my opinion, they are very unprofessional. At the moment we have rights to determine what happens with OUR FUND - WE OWN IT !!! Don't encourage people to give up those rights.

Now your getting pedantic!

I hope you get there successfully and if you do, kudos (acclaim) to you mate!

 

[Burnt]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Now your getting pedantic!

I hope you get there successfully and if you do, kudos (acclaim) to you mate!

Hey bud, not getting pedantic, just stating facts. Sorry that you can't see that, but I hope that others can see the facts and logic.

Good luck to you too mate.

 

[breaker1]

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

:horse:

picture paints a thousand words! Nuff said!