Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Burnt · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Hi Like2ski,
I really don't know what is best. The complaints I previously wrote were put in by another unit holder. Tonight I just put in another one via the web and marked it Urgent. I think the more under different numbers the better so that ASIC start to realise there are a lot of concerned people as apposed to a few nutters

The url for the Yahoo group is here:http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PIFActionGroup You'll even find a poll there regarding resolution 1.

Like2ski,
If you go to page 90 of this thread to Doras post no.1783 there is a link to the ecomplaint area of ASIC. I have sent several complaints online on behalf of myself and others, and we have all received a written reply of receiving the complaint and commitment from ASIC to act upon in it within two days in the mail. As Dora says the more complaints the better, lets annoy the hell out of ASIC to get them to act. I (and others) have also sent letters and emails to our local Federal MPs and to Senator Nick Sherry (in charge of ASIC) urging them to push forward ASIC's investigations and some sort of determination into the behaviour and past activities of the RE of the Fund, as well as an urgent determination as to whether Wellington should be allowed to proceed with this vote. By the way the RE has remained the same throughout, there have only been name changes. I.E. legal action can (& could already be) taken against the RE for beaches of the Funds constitution and corporate laws. That is why it is so important that unitholders are not pursuaded to vote to change the RE to Wellington Capital Limited.

Burnt · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Thanks for all your work Mutchy!

Just thought I'd mention that JH said last Friday that she was hoping to have more buy backs each year. I didn't bother posting this because if I can't verify something myself or if she won't write it on paper it don't mean anything. Interesting to note tho that her staff say the opposite.

Hi Like2ski,
I really don't know what is best. The complaints I previously wrote were put in by another unit holder. Tonight I just put in another one via the web and marked it Urgent. I think the more under different numbers the better so that ASIC start to realise there are a lot of concerned people as apposed to a few nutters

The url for the Yahoo group is here:http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PIFActionGroup You'll even find a poll there regarding resolution 1.

Hi Dora,
Had a quick look at Yahoo, sorry couldn't make head nor tails of it........guess I join the group of computer idiots............too hard. Love to know what the poll results are so far though ???

BABIHUTAN · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi to all PIF Unit holders,

Speaking for myself [and I suspect as is the case for the vast majority of Mum & Dad Investors] I frankly do not understand the implications of voting, how to vote, or not voting at all, nor do I understand what other actions are open to us. It seems strange tt postal voting forms are to be returned to an interested party in this fiasco.
I think we all understand tt we are collectively in serious trouble and fm what I hv read are unlikely to see more than a pittance of our money back.
There is no doubt tt a lot of hard and constructive work has been put in on behalf of unitholders by some contributors, who are/were financial professionals but how to do we, as laypersons sort the Sheep fm the Goats? It is fairly obvious there are others tt maybe feeding misleading information, and I would hate tt our lack of understanding of the real issues might put us in a worse pickle than we already are.
What is very clear to all of us tt we hv been had and this has seemly been achieved by dodgy and possibly criminal activities of fund managers.
I hv not seen any reaction fm the powers tt be, our so called financial watchdogs, and what they are doing to sort our predicament.

Come on CANBERRA, we are not looking for handouts for errors of judgement - there are hwvr 10000 odd investors who dearly need some unbiased and professional advice & support to maximise recoveries - NOW b4 it all evaporates.

Burnt · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

BABIHUTAN said:
Hi to all PIF Unit holders,

Speaking for myself [and I suspect as is the case for the vast majority of Mum & Dad Investors] I frankly do not understand the implications of voting, how to vote, or not voting at all, nor do I understand what other actions are open to us. It seems strange tt postal voting forms are to be returned to an interested party in this fiasco.
I think we all understand tt we are collectively in serious trouble and fm what I hv read are unlikely to see more than a pittance of our money back.
There is no doubt tt a lot of hard and constructive work has been put in on behalf of unitholders by some contributors, who are/were financial professionals but how to do we, as laypersons sort the Sheep fm the Goats? It is fairly obvious there are others tt maybe feeding misleading information, and I would hate tt our lack of understanding of the real issues might put us in a worse pickle than we already are.
What is very clear to all of us tt we hv been had and this has seemly been achieved by dodgy and possibly criminal activities of fund managers.
I hv not seen any reaction fm the powers tt be, our so called financial watchdogs, and what they are doing to sort our predicament.

Come on CANBERRA, we are not looking for handouts for errors of judgement - there are hwvr 10000 odd investors who dearly need some unbiased and professional advice & support to maximise recoveries - NOW b4 it all evaporates.

Hi Babihutan,
Please read the comments posted earlier tonight regarding voting issues (if you don't submit a vote it means you are voting for WC) and also who to complain to. I agree, we need to get Government bodies to act for us. The more people that complain to ASIC, local federal members of parliament and Senator Nick Sherry (in charge of Financial Services) the better. Please feel free. Most of us cannot afford private litigation and so we need to get these tax paid representatives to do something. I will be back with contact info.

Burnt · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Bumblebee said:
I have just now come off the phone to WC hotline and may be able to help with some of the queries coming through on posts.

Voting. Each unit has voting power. So if you hold 20,000 units you have twice the voteing power as a person with 10,000 units.

Dividends. A total of 3 cents will be paid per unit by Dec 2008. Probably 1.5 cents in Oct and 1.5 cents in December. The current offer on the table going forward is to pay 6 cents per annun in quarterly instalments for 2009 and each year thereafter.

This information is from the WC hotline thisafternoon. cheers

There has been no guarantee from WC as to distributions past Dec.08. Nothing in writing has been offered as to future cash payments

Burnt · 27 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Barbihutan,
If you go to page 90 of this thread post no.1783 Dora has provided a link to lodging a complaint online with ASIC. If you go to page 98 post no.1952 you will find links to contact details for Senator Nick Sherry as well as your local Federal MP. I am only a layperson too and this is what we can contribute. Please, Please write complaints and letters requesting help, in your own words, no matter how futile it may seem. The more complaints and letters the better. The more annoying we can be the more likely that they will act. It's up to us.
Cheers, Power to the People.

flatback · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Like2ski,
If you go to page 90 of this thread to Doras post no.1783 there is a link to the ecomplaint area of ASIC. I have sent several complaints online on behalf of myself and others, and we have all received a written reply of receiving the complaint and commitment from ASIC to act upon in it within two days in the mail. As Dora says the more complaints the better, lets annoy the hell out of ASIC to get them to act. I (and others) have also sent letters and emails to our local Federal MPs and to Senator Nick Sherry (in charge of ASIC) urging them to push forward ASIC's investigations and some sort of determination into the behaviour and past activities of the RE of the Fund, as well as an urgent determination as to whether Wellington should be allowed to proceed with this vote. By the way the RE has remained the same throughout, there have only been name changes. I.E. legal action can (& could already be) taken against the RE for beaches of the Funds constitution and corporate laws. That is why it is so important that unitholders are not pursuaded to vote to change the RE to Wellington Capital Limited.

I dont want to keep harping on this Burnt, but nobody would listen, the constitution is the guts of this whole problem i dont know how many times i have bought it up, and not once did anybody take it up, she cannot change the constitution if it obviously effects the members, and i strongly believe that she has broken the law here with the changes she has already made, we cant be led to believe that we have to vote on these issues when, the audit for gods sake, hasn't been carried out yet, without the audit tell me what are we voting for a bag of oranges or an old boot what??? flatback

great dame · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good morning all For my 2 bits worth There is really know way of knowing if my vote ever reacher's Computer share If Wellington opens & see my vote & don't like what they see It could be sheeded Guess i have been boring you folk for weeks now how i don't trust them Once WC gets us all in the bag we are we are all Finished //Dane ///

great dame · 28 August 2008

Re: PIF Vote

Burnt said:
Hi Rance,
Thanks for your info regarding the vote counting process. I'm pretty sure Computershare will have "readers" at the meeting to count the votes submitted there to be added to the total vote count. I have total faith in their methods. My concern is with whether or not ALL VOTES will be passed onto them. Who determines which voting papers are invalid because they are not filled out correctly ?? Who monitors the mail coming into Wellington's office ???? Who counts the number of voting papers recieved by Wellington as compared to the number of voting papers received by Computershare ?????

Burnt you strike me as a very smart person I admire you But even dumb me can answer that questain WELLINGTON DOSE OF CAUSE /Dane //

Duped · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

like2ski said:
.... it would certainly be interesting to ascertain who the shareholders are?? Shouldn't it be public knowledge and a legal requirement? perhaps we can clarify with ASIC.
....

I don't think it is a requirement. I remember the press going on about Tattersalls was (is?) famous for keeping the list of shareholders a well guarded secret. It caused a stir when it was revealed by the press that Martin Bryant had been living off an inherited shareholding.

RickH · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Burnt said:
Hi Babihutan,
Please read the comments posted earlier tonight regarding voting issues (if you don't submit a vote it means you are voting for WC) and also who to complain to. I agree, we need to get Government bodies to act for us. The more people that complain to ASIC, local federal members of parliament and Senator Nick Sherry (in charge of Financial Services) the better. Please feel free. Most of us cannot afford private litigation and so we need to get these tax paid representatives to do something. I will be back with contact info.

Hi Burnt,
"(if you don't submit a vote it means you are voting for WC)"
I cannot understand how this helps an investor to make an informed decision.
1) If a person wants to vote for WC and does not vote - how does that help WC get 75% of the vote?
2) If a person has no idea and does not want to vote - how does that help WC get the 75% of the vote
3) The only time WC would benefit is when a person wanted to vote NO and did not vote.
Please explain your statement and logic on how your information is helpful.
Regards, RickH:couch

DoraNBoots · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

RickH said:
Hi Burnt,
"(if you don't submit a vote it means you are voting for WC)"
I cannot understand how this helps an investor to make an informed decision.
1) If a person wants to vote for WC and does not vote - how does that help WC get 75% of the vote?
2) If a person has no idea and does not want to vote - how does that help WC get the 75% of the vote
3) The only time WC would benefit is when a person wanted to vote NO and did not vote.
Please explain your statement and logic on how your information is helpful.
Regards, RickH

Rick,

When have you ever provided useful information relevant to this thread? Sure you continually give general financial advice but it’s not relevant to people who have their money stuck in a fund with no decent exist strategy. So if you are telling us to diversify because we previously put all our eggs in one basket you know very well you are just rubbing our nose in it because we have no way of getting out of this fund to allow us to diversify. I have found Burnts posts to be very informative as they are relevant to our current situation. If WC are telling people to send a blank form with just a signature to them (so they can take care of it) it means it will be a Yes vote for all 3 resolutions.

So how are you advising your clients to vote? Have you told them that liquidation at 14 cents is just a threat and is not required by law if it’s a no vote?

(Insert 'smilie' with a couch dropping on it's little yellow head.)

great dame · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Good morning again Just got off the phone from WC about complaining about our votes going to WC Opening them up looking at them before pasting them on to Computer share I told her there is no private with that i am jumping mad about about this and said i might go to the media about all this Talk back radio etc etc She said please don't do that i will talk to my boss & get back to you I suggest others do the same as me & ring WC & give them hard time too /Dane //

DoraNBoots · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

great dame said:
Good morning again Just got off the phone from WC about complaining about our votes going to WC Opening them up looking at them before pasting them on to Computer share I told her there is no private with that i am jumping mad about about this and said i might go to the media about all this Talk back radio etc etc She said please don't do that i will talk to my boss & get back to you I suggest others do the same as me & ring WC & give them hard time too /Dane //

Nice one GD! I say go to the media and ASIC, it's too late for WC to be backtracking, people are already voting.

Duped · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

like2ski said:
Just wondering if anyone has sought/suggested obtaining professional advice in relation to our treatment/voting of the three resolutions as we may compromise/worsen our position and outcomes....

The financial advisor who put me into PIF is recommending to vote yes.

As for the 0.25% Handling Fee (10.12 of the EM): thats $25 per 10,000 votes. Hardly worth risking losing a client by giving dodgy advice is it? Surely financial planners aren't that desparate for income? Or are they?

Can anyone confirm where the Handling Fee is being paid from: WCL/WIML's own pockets or WC's 0.7% or from the fund e.g. the 0.32% 'Other management costs', 'Abnormal Operating Expenses' ... ? The EM says the RE can pay the 0.25% but doesn't make it definite it isn't financed by the fund.

RickH, at one point my AFSL advisor had put 100% of my assets in PIF. How do you explain that?

BTW I'm not confident I completely understood a single paragraph of section 9 of the EM 'Taxation Analysis' pp 69-70. Next time one of u finance people have a go at me for using jargon from my profession you're going to cop such a serve. I'm printing pp 69-70 and pinning them to my wall at work.

If a WC acceptance of the OCV offer to creditors is made subject to resolution 1 succeeding then my vote is likely a yes. If not, then I'm undecided. The very worst scenario is for WC to accept the OCV offer on our behalf and then have the fund liquidated next year.

Mutchy · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

gazzan57 said:
Hi Mutchy ...where do we find your yahoo group please?

Hello All.
The URL for the Yahoo group is in DoraNBoots post #2001 above.
You will have to join the group. Once you have joined go to the home page. On the top left corner is a menu under "Members Only". click on "Files". At the bottom of the list is my file called CommentsConstitution.doc. I have composed this file in the form of a suggestion as to how to improve the drafting of the Deed Poll and the Schedule of the Constitution because I promised one of the WC employees that I would suggest improvements. In other words " going forward for all the right reasons", it' s framed as a positive contribution rather than a criticism.

I do not know what are common conditions comprising a constitution of a fund such as ours but I am of the opinion that this document is flawed. I think it does not allow redemption of units in a buy back scheme because all the clauses relating to redemption have been deleted. I think it does not allow the RE to trade on the NSX because there is no allowance for the the RE to purchase units on the NSX: the RE can hold units but not trade. I am suspicious of the vast change to the clauses regarding the conduct of meetings. WC seem to be paranoid about what they see as adverse action to the extent that they ban placards from unit holders meetings! There is no provision for the establishment of the Investor Advisory Committee, nor its operation. The actions allowed under proposed constitution appears to me to fall far short of satisfactory when compared with the actions proposed by the Explanatory Memorandum

I am in favour of an orderly wind up of PIF because I expect that trading on the NSX will never be a satisfactory means of exiting the fund. I think I would rather get my investment returned in the next couple of years and then make something out of it rather than get a meagre return for a few years, get frustrated with the return and then try to sell on the NSX and then still get half of the value of my units.

Mutchy

great dame · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Rick,

When have you ever provided useful information relevant to this thread? Sure you continually give general financial advice but it’s not relevant to people who have their money stuck in a fund with no decent exist strategy. So if you are telling us to diversify because we previously put all our eggs in one basket you know very well you are just rubbing our nose in it because we have no way of getting out of this fund to allow us to diversify. I have found Burnts posts to be very informative as they are relevant to our current situation. If WC are telling people to send a blank form with just a signature to them (so they can take care of it) it means it will be a Yes vote for all 3 resolutions.

So how are you advising your clients to vote? Have you told them that liquidation at 14 cents is just a threat and is not required by law if it’s a no vote?

(Insert 'smilie' with a couch dropping on it's little yellow head.)

Yes And thats DITTO from Dane too '''' Dory sure got you on that one Rick /Dane //

Jadel · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mutchy if far better qualified than myself and if he or she can smell a rat their must be something seriously wrong with WC package .

Personally I have always thought that to threaten unit holders with a liquidation at 14c cents was morally and ethically indefensible

Changing the Constitution of our fund was never mentioned as a viable option by WC

In fact they have stated that “ they are simply not interested in this option“

If you would like to consider some serious initiatives on the future of our Fund PLEASE attend the QLD meeting on Saturday .

All Queensland AG members next meeting.

Saturday at 2 pm 30 August 2008.

Beenleigh RSL & Mt Warren Golf Course

13 Bardyn Halliday Dr, Mt Warren Park
Please note that you may be requested to provide your PIF current investor ID number

like2ski · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

DoraNBoots said:
Nice one GD! I say go to the media and ASIC, it's too late for WC to be backtracking, people are already voting.

Good morning DoraNBoots,
I fully agree that WE SHOULD GO TO THE MEDIA. I was discussing the matter with a representative of Maurice Blackman lawyers who are acting on behalf of some MFS shareholders and could not act on our behalf (PIF) as it would be a conflict of interest.
They understand our predicament and feel that at this stage it would be a good idea to go to the media, press,radio personalities and talk-back radio etc.
We should prepare convincing arguments to expose MFS/Octaviar/Wellington for their scams and explain the plight of the unit holders particularly the needy, S.F.Retirees etc.
I understand that a lot of holders were reluctant to take that step however, at this stage and as things are evolving with WC we really have nothing to lose and it would put a lot of pressure on WC, the politicians (state & federal govts.) and ASIC to get off their backsides and take immediate action.
What is the feeling here, should we have a go and if so can we select appropriate person/s to start the campaign ??
Your comments would be appreciated

selciper · 28 August 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Shouldn't changes to clauses in any constitution be the subject of a separate vote? Otherwise the Australian Constitution would be changing every few months! I am becoming suspicious of WC's motives after having originally welcomed their intervention.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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