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Nulla,

1/ There are several other mods here, so no need for CanOz to examine every single post.

2/ If for whatever reason (see pixel's excellent post) a mod thinks he cannot objectively moderate a certain individual, don't you think it would be better to abstain?

Jesus mate, we're just imperfect Muppets, just like every other Muppet on here.
 
....continued because my device wouldn't let me continue.....

We are not automatons, trained policemen, fascist brownshirts etc. We're just trying to give Joe a hand.
 
basilio said:
...In my view it's apparent that the overriding political tone is far, farright wing....
Click to expand...

Far, far right is your opinion, Bas, as you are so far in the other direction. Nothing wrong with that but just realise that it is your bias that gives you the perception that others are so far from your own position.

And, this is a stock market forum. Most of us came here because of interest in the stock market. I certainly did. Most people invested in the stock market happen to be pro-business and, as such, most likely won't support the anti-business, socialist ideas of the left.

It's the same on other stock market forums. The left constantly complain like you do but when will you guys get it that many stock market investors are going to have different political viewpoints to those from the left.

How do you think I would get on if I posted anti-labor stuff on the ABC or Fairfax websites? Or how about I go on to a union website and say how great Abbott is...LOL How about I call them poisonous when they howl me down - what sort of response do you think I would get?

Unfortunately, if you want the majority of people to agree with your minority views perhaps you are posting in the wrong place. I very much doubt that your postings (or IFocus' posts for that matter) have actually changed anyone's views. If anything, they have consolidated my views even more strongly in the other direction.

 
I reckon we need the ignore function for threads. This one would be at the top of my list
 
kid hustlr said:
fwiw I think CanOz does a tremendous job
Click to expand...

Me too.

CanOz cares, actually does something and tries to be impartial - what more could you want.

If I had to read through all the garbage on this site to try and moderate it, I think I would vomit.

So much on this site is toxic and mono-cultured down to the views of a few super arrogant, slippery and argumentative people.(maybe me included) It must be costing Joe countless contributors/contributions. There’s really a question here bigger then moderation and ignore function – it’s about the whole culture and how to change it to something more productive and welcoming. In the mean time If it wasn't for the existence of Canoz, I know the whole ASF site would be on my ignore list.
 


Sounds reasonable to me especially given the mods do this voluntarily...
 

Are there possibly 50 shades of Gray somewhere Sails?

I joined ASF because I was interested in the Stock market. I learnt a lot from many posters and contributed to discussions an particular stocks and overall business discussions.

So clearly I'm not anti-business. We need quality, profitable worthwhile businesses as part of our society. And in the next breath I would say we also need quality, effective public servants, teachers and NGO's. Surely the world isn't one dimensional ?

And have I ever attacked businesses as such ? If you have a look at my posts I have probably opened discussions about dishonest business practices - for example company directors that take all of the companies profits as their cut while slashing dividends and the workforce. Or banks that acted corruptly in their dealings with investors and the public. But I have been very enthusiastic about businesses that I think offer great products and opportunities (and hopefully a buck)

Is that being a "socialist" ?

(The most controversial discussions I have had of course are around CC. Somehow this has been construed as an anti business approach as if I was trying to attack the core of capitalism.

I find that criticism one of the hardest to understand. In my dealings with business (and they cover many areas) risk management and understanding where the next next opportunities or pitfalls lie is very important. In that context for example few businesses I know are as quick to dismiss the overwhelming science on CC as seems to be the case on ASF. )

But that is a side issue. I offered some suggestions on a more constructive approach in this forum. Any thoughts on the succinct but useful guidelines I borrowed from elsewhere.?

I am also posting other guidelines I borrowed from The Guardian. (Can we focus on the content rather than the source ? If they came from The Australian or The Herald Sun I would have been just as happy to post them )
 
Community standards and participation guidelines
10 guidelines which we expect all participants in the Guardian's community areas to abide by

Scope

This document covers all aspects of community interaction and moderation on the Guardian website, including comments on blogs or articles.

Moderation aims

The Guardian website provides a growing number of opportunities for readers who wish to discuss content we publish, or debate issues more generally. Our aim is to ensure this platform is inclusive and safe, and that the Guardian website is the place on the net where you will always find lively, entertaining and, above all, intelligent discussions.

Community standards

There are 10 simple guidelines which we expect all participants in the community areas of the Guardian website to abide by, all of which directly inform our approach to community moderation (detailed below). These apply across the site, while moderation decisions are also informed by the context in which comments are made.

1. We welcome debate and dissent, but personal attacks (on authors, other users or any individual), persistent trolling and mindless abuse will not be tolerated. The key to maintaining the Guardian website as an inviting space is to focus on intelligent discussion of topics.

2. We acknowledge criticism of the articles we publish, but will not allow persistent misrepresentation of the Guardian and our journalists to be published on our website.For the sake of robust debate, we will distinguish between constructive, focused argument and smear tactics.

3. We understand that people often feel strongly about issues debated on the site, but we will consider removing any content that others might find extremely offensive or threatening. Please respect other people's views and beliefs and consider your impact on others when making your contribution.

4. We reserve the right to redirect or curtail conversations which descend into flame-wars based on ingrained partisanship or generalisations. We don't want to stop people discussing topics they are enthusiastic about, but we do ask users to find ways of sharing their views that do not feel divisive, threatening or toxic to others.

5. We will not tolerate racism, sexism, homophobia or other forms of hate-speech, or contributions that could be interpreted as such. We recognise the difference between criticising a particular government, organisation, community or belief and attacking people on the basis of their race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability or age.

6. We will remove any content that may put us in legal jeopardy, such as potentially libellous or defamatory postings, or material posted in potential breach of copyright.

7. We will remove any posts that are obviously commercial or otherwise spam-like. Our aim is that this site should provide a space for people to interact with our content and each other, and we actively discourage commercial entities passing themselves off as individuals, in order to post advertising material or links. This may also apply to people or organisations who frequently post propaganda or external links without adding substantively to the quality of the discussion on the Guardian website.

8. Keep it relevant. We know that some conversations can be wide-ranging, but if you post something which is unrelated to the original topic ("off-topic") then it may be removed, in order to keep the thread on track. This also applies to queries or comments about moderation, which should not be posted as comments.

9. Be aware that you may be misunderstood, so try to be clear about what you are saying, and expect that people may understand your contribution differently than you intended. Remember that text isn't always a great medium for conversation: tone of voice (sarcasm, humour and so on) doesn't always come across when using words on a screen. You can help to keep the Guardian community areas open to all viewpoints by maintaining a reasonable tone, even in unreasonable circumstances.

10. The platform is ours, but the conversation belongs to everybody. We want this to be a welcoming space for intelligent discussion, and we expect participants to help us achieve this by notifying us of potential problems and helping each other to keep conversations inviting and appropriate. If you spot something problematic in community interaction areas, please report it. When we all take responsibility for maintaining an appropriate and constructive environment, the debate itself is improved and everyone benefits.

In short:

- If you act with maturity and consideration for other users, you should have no problems.
- Don't be unpleasant. Demonstrate and share the intelligence, wisdom and humour we know you possess.
- Take some responsibility for the quality of the conversations in which you're participating. Help make this an intelligent place for discussion and it will be.
 
The Guardian?

While those guideline are laudable, in practice the Gaurdian falls over at point one, failing to approve reasonable views contrary to Ghardian ideology agenda.

On the other hand, Joe is the most even handed admin anywhere on the web. Even us mods don't know his political leaning if any. Hence why ideologues of both colours get a fair run here. It is the Grandioen that could learn something from ASF.

- - - Updated - - -

PS apologies for grammar etc, on my device.
 

Wayne that was Point 1 of The Guardians guidelines for responses on their comments. Just rechecking the discussions on CC forums (for example) will highlight the relentless attacks and abuse that are seemingly part of the accepted discourse.

And it happens on the political threads as well. Please don't pretend that ASF is doing a better job than The Guardian as far keeping a reasonable discourse.

I appreciate the challenge that Joe has managing ASF. I'm not sure that just denying them out of existence is an effective way of changing the culture.

(if in fact of course there is any agreement that the culture should be changed. Perhaps the majority and whoever counts are happy with the way it all goes. Just don't gaslight me .. OK ?)
 
CanOz said:
And there we go, back on ignore.

Why did I Farking bother....
Click to expand...
I'll save you the trouble of having me on Ignore, CanOz. This will be my last post.

I simply suggested that to reinstate anything from such a long ago discussion which now has no relevance would be pointless and stand by that.

When it gets to the point that, from inducing sarcasm to now apparently contributing to the potential for a member to feel like vomiting about the content of this forum, it's time to go.

Joe, I've been here for nearly nine years and never once in all that time have I known you to be other than completely even handed and fair. From time to time I've asked you questions or perhaps offered suggestions and these have always been met with interest and empathy. I've never known you to lose your temper, though Lord knows, you would have plenty of reason to do so.

I appreciate absolutely also how difficult it must be to find the acceptable line between moderation that's too slack and one which stifles debate. FWIW, I think you do this admirably. All up, I cannot imagine a better owner/administrator of any website where dissension is an inevitable characteristic.

I've learned a huge amount from being on ASF. By no means only from Tech/A (who responded to my initial tentative request for someone to help me understand charting all those years ago), and McLovin and SKC for their informative, jargon-free explanations of so many aspects of investing to people asking.
Also Sir O for his excellent Beginners' thread.

I'm especially grateful to the people who have become friends. And to posters like Bellenuit, Knobby, Cynic, whose articulate and objective contributions are so worthwhile.

To Basilio, with whom I differ philosophically in almost every way, but whose continued plea for more courtesy
and less combat I support totally.

I'll miss ASF in many ways, do want to thank Nulla Nulla on this thread for having the courage to step into someone else's issue in support. It's much easier to watch from the sidelines.

A special thanks also, to Garpal Gumnut, for many 'laugh out loud' moments, someone whose sardonic exterior conceals a genuinely warm and caring heart.

To Smurf for always being prepared to provide technical help where needed. (That pool heat pump has been a perfect choice, thanks, Smurf.)

Please forgive me for anyone whom I've failed to specifically mention and whose friendship I've enjoyed over the years. You are many. Thanks for having me. I wish every one of you all the best.

Julia
 
Julia said:
I'll save you the trouble of having me on Ignore, CanOz. This will be my last post.
Click to expand...

It's amazing how this forum has changed over the years...and not all for the better. A lot of the members that joined when the forum first launched (like me) have recently packed up and gone. Too many to mention. We all no doubt have our own thoughts as to why this is happening.
 
Julia said:
I'll save you the trouble of having me on Ignore, CanOz. This will be my last post.
Click to expand...

Julia, I hope you can continue to enjoy this forum. I think you take this forum a bit too seriously at times. Just ignore the bits you don't like and focus on the areas that bring you joy.

Sure political, religious or whatever debates are won and loss here and the outcomes are not always right or fair... But it's only an internet forum. It's not like people's life or actual government policies are being made pending on the outcome. So if the political thread is flooded with left/right/green opinions or whatever. So be it. Nothing important actually happened.

Re: issue of overall forum climate. The forums I found the most supportive are newborn/mothers forums (yes I've read a few of them recently)... no egos, always understanding and always helpful. So please everyone, go have a look and see how you can behave that way too.
 
I was just reviewing my comments and what had been said earlier on this thread and realized how out of sync I was with my contribution. I just didn't properly recognise the significance of the conversation between CanOz, Julia et al

Julia take care. You will certainly be missed. Thank you.
 
Julia, whilst I can appreciate your restrained personality, there's no shame in letting off a bit of steam every now and then. On a few occasions I've told Canoz to go and jump in the lake (worse actually), but found him very good in his approach to dispute resolution, (either disputes with him or others). Some of the things I've said would have got me banned from many forums, particularly if directed at a moderator. Just the other week he helped me out with some data I needed, so he's a bit above that Nazi style of moderator you might see on HC and elsewhere.

Open a window, have a Bex and lie down, then consider a comeback!
 
This is all my fault. I take responsibility for this.

A while back, maybe 6 or 7 months ago i put Julia on ignore. I still checked what she posted most of the time, even though i had her on ignore. It was just my little childish way of getting some sense of....something...

Anyway, over time we sort of started to see eye to eye again. Water under the bridge i thought. I just forgot to take her off ignore and i was quite used to viewing her posts after selecting to do so. It wasn't until the thread of Pavs where i had cleaned out a bunch of (what i thought at the time ) were off topic posts, that i heard from Joe she wasn't happy about my decision on one of the posts. I also heard from 4 or 5 other members and so corrected my errors....i figured if they thought strongly enough about them they would request they be re-instated... By the time i realized why she couldn't contact me directly, it was too late.

Since then I've been busy with some pretty serious family issues and just haven't had the time to post or mod much. I neglected Julia's feelings during this time, i should have re-instated her posts and apologized to her in PM.

My last post was in total frustration, exactly what i feel 90% of the time while moderating difficult situations...but i choose to express my frustration on few occasions...relative to what i experience as a mod. For that, i do regret as well. Although i don't regret feeling frustrated at my, apparently sad attempt at apologizing, being totally dismissed.

This is all a ridiculous misunderstanding typical of the eCulture we are becoming involved in.

In real life, i am an honest, all be it candid individual hell bent on bettering all the lives i come in contact with in whatever way i can.

I'm sad that Julia is leaving and i will consider my role as a moderator of ASF over the weekend.

Thanks for the support and the criticism...its all going to make me a better person in the long run. It doesn't go unnoticed, its not dismissed....i genuinely reflect on all comments made to me.
 
CanOz said:
Thanks for the support and the criticism...its all going to make me a better person in the long run. It doesn't go unnoticed, its not dismissed....i genuinely reflect on all comments made to me.
Click to expand...
Canoz, total respect for admitting in public for any mistakes you may think you've made... after all is said and done, it is, what it is.... no use crying over spilt milk. The fact that you are always willing to be introspective about your life and thoughtful in retrospect about your actions means that you will thrive from any experiences that have been and will be thrown at you. Constant improvement.... kaizen as the Japanese call it, I see it in your posts about your trading journey and I'm seeing it a lot in your personal nature. It's a quality to keep, you're dead right, you will be a better person in the long run because you always reflect on your actions.

Good luck, you get my vote as moderator.
 

I totally concur with skc.

This Forum would be a poorer place without Julia's passionate participation. I have enjoyed many discussions with her, both on and off the Forum; doesn't mean we've always been on the same wavelength, and at times I had to cop some harsh words of her disapproval. But I'm used to disapproval and get over it without letting it sour a generally friendly relationship, let alone my personal disposition.

When I made my earlier post in CanOz's defense, I had hoped Julia would "read between the lines" - but it seems I was wrong. Now I'm not sure that even a PM would have a calming effect.

The lesson I'll learn for myself from this: Don't overestimate your influence on a public Forum. You may think you get to know the person behind a nic and avatar, but when things get personal - Boy! can you be wrong!

Nonetheless, I would urge Joe and everybody to support CanOz and urge him to stay a Moderator. Making a mistake is easy. Admitting it and apologising for it shows character. Accepting an apology and going back to normal does too.
 
I think what happened in this thread demonstrates how even something well intentioned can lead to unfortunate consequences, and it's a a great shame that things had to turn out this way.

It is always disappointing to see people leave ASF, particularly those who have been members here for many years. A big part of the enjoyment of forums is being a part of a community composed of familiar user names and personalities, and it's always a shame to lose those who have been an important part of the community.

Julia, if you do decide to leave for good, my best wishes go with you, as does my appreciation for all you have contributed to ASF over the years. However, I hope that at some point, perhaps after a much needed break, you will decide to return.

On the topic of ASF's moderators, I think they do an admirable job and I sincerely appreciate their efforts. They are all exceptionally even handed, even in the most trying of circumstances, and manage to successfully walk the precarious tightrope of being both members of the ASF community and those responsible for enforcing the forum rules. Please don't forget that they are all volunteers who willingly give their time to help make ASF a more enjoyable place for everyone. And like everyone else, they are also ordinary ASF members who deserve to participate in the discussions and enjoy their time here.

The one issue that just won't go away, it seems, is that of respect, or rather the lack thereof some show towards others during discussions, especially political discussions. Nobody likes to be demeaned or insulted, and inevitably one insult or personal attack leads to another. It lowers the level of debate to that of a schoolyard scrap and I like to think that we can do a lot better here at ASF. By and large this is a great community filled with good people eager to share ideas and knowledge and discuss issues in the true spirit of genuine debate.

Even when you vehemently disagree with someone, there is no excuse for not treating them with a basic level of respect. There's never a legitimate reason to use derogatory labels or hurl epithets at others. To those who feel the need to be unpleasant or insulting towards others, please do it somewhere else. It is not welcome here. To those who object to specific individuals because of their opinions, attitude or posting style, please use your ignore list to filter them out. Most importantly, learn to agree to disagree and walk away from exchanges with others that are going nowhere instead of allowing them to turn nasty.

Please do what you can to get along with others. ASF is at its best when the discussions are positive and constructive. Let's try and keep it that way!
 
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