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Bill Shorten and all Labor MPs could not give a hoot about the National interest....It is confrontation for the sake of confrontation.

They obviously do not want the Abbott government to succeed in bring our finances under control......they are in complete denial of how serious the situation is......Wake up Labor.....your country needs you to do the right thing.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/not_savage_and_no_surprise/
 
Julia said:
We'll have to just disagree on this. Particularly in the context of what many pensioners believe to be happening which is that the amount currently being received is going to be reduced. Listen to a few radio talk back programs and you'll get it.
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Not labor's fault the pensioners can't find time to look up the details (what else have they got to do all day anyway?).
 
banco said:
Not labor's fault the pensioners can't find time to look up the details (what else have they got to do all day anyway?).
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How condescending of you, banco. Believe it or not, many pensioners don't even have an internet connection.
Neither do some of them have the expectation that they should be required not to take at face value what the media and the Labor Party tells them.

A further example of this misinformation occurred today courtesy Doug Cameron who has apparently told pensioners that they will 'no longer be receiving the Seniors Supplement'.

The reality is that pensioners have never received the Seniors Supplement. It is a payment designed to co-exist with the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card issued to self funded retirees with income not more than $50,000, and to go toward helping pay for utilities.

So tell me how that is not attempting to manipulate the fears of pensioners quite dishonestly.
PS Confirmation of the above can be found on the ABC website. Look up today's radio news.
I'm sure you, unlike some pensioners, will have the capacity to check.
 
Julia said:
How condescending of you, banco. Believe it or not, many pensioners don't even have an internet connection.
Neither do some of them have the expectation that they should be required not to take at face value what the media and the Labor Party tells them.

A further example of this misinformation occurred today courtesy Doug Cameron who has apparently told pensioners that they will 'no longer be receiving the Seniors Supplement'.

The reality is that pensioners have never received the Seniors Supplement. It is a payment designed to co-exist with the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card issued to self funded retirees with income not more than $50,000, and to go toward helping pay for utilities.

So tell me how that is not attempting to manipulate the fears of pensioners quite dishonestly.
PS Confirmation of the above can be found on the ABC website. Look up today's radio news.
I'm sure you, unlike some pensioners, will have the capacity to check.
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So were you as up in arms when Abbott was telling pensioners they'd be rooned by the carbton tax?

We're you as scathing of his tabling of a pensioners electricity bill in parliament claiming that that the bill had increased 70% due to the "carbon tax", when in fact she had nearly doubled her energy consumption and prices had just went through their annual increase of which the carbon tax was < 10% of the increase?

I remember on one of the stupid post nightly news tv shows where the pensioner was so scared he wouldn't be able to afford his electricity bills that he was going to bed at sundown to conserve power. How many more pensioners out there had the same fears purely due to Abbotts fear-mongering??

While I abhor anyone using false fears to try and manipulate public opinion, Abbott certainly wrote the rule book while in opposition on how to effectively do it.

I also seem to remember Abbott claiming that BHP decided against the olympic dam expansion was due to the carbon tax and resource tax, even though BHP had cited neither in why they had decided against the expansion. I also recently read an article that he's told the SA Govt that once these taxes are removed that BHP is likely to go ahead with the OD expansion which would help with the loss of the car industry, once again against what BHP has recently said.

Now either Abbott is outright lying, or he is so ideologically narrow minded he actually believes in an alternative reality.
 
Syd, I will never understand why, when someone makes a criticism of the behaviour of one side of politics, it is apparently assumed that critic has never felt similarly critical toward the 'other side'.

If you were ever to bother looking through many of my posts over many years, you'd find plenty of criticism of all sides, the present government very much included.
 
Julia said:
Syd, I will never understand why, when someone makes a criticism of the behaviour of one side of politics, it is apparently assumed that critic has never felt similarly critical toward the 'other side'.

If you were ever to bother looking through many of my posts over many years, you'd find plenty of criticism of all sides, the present government very much included.
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When I highlighted Abbotts Energy Bill deceit / stuff up comments on this forum last year the response was along the lines of it's "small beer" and not of concern. So you can understand why I feel there's a certain level of double standards on this forum, especially when Abbott had been arguing very strongly at that time about leaders requiring integrity and public trust.

So while you may be just as critical of Abbotts' fear mongering when he was in opposition, the majority on this forum only seem to see things as negative when it's Labor that's doing them.

Personally I think Labor would be smarter to allow some of the better ideas on getting the budget balanced through and let Abbott wear the downside. Abbott would have been smart to have let Labor wear the changes to the statutory method for car FBT - $1.6B in extra revenue is better than attacking the poor as we have from them.

I'd love Labor to offer some smart alternative savings - they have all the Henry Tax review savings still to implement - but they're sadly playing from the small target rule book and are setting themselves up for the same revenue shortfalls that Abbott has gotten himself into.

The magic pudding of an ever expanding ToT and private debt has come to an end. Neither side of politics seems to have realised that as yet.
 
noco said:
Bill Shorten and all Labor MPs could not give a hoot about the National interest....It is confrontation for the sake of confrontation.

They obviously do not want the Abbott government to succeed in bring our finances under control......they are in complete denial of how serious the situation is......Wake up Labor.....your country needs you to do the right thing.



http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...eraldsun/comments/not_savage_and_no_surprise/
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So what is your view on Abbott wanting to allow unlimited 457 visa workers into the country?

As reported in you primary source of information - The Australian

Official data reveals that while 67,000 Australian technicians and tradies search for work, employers have brought in 10,210 foreign trade workers on 457 work visas during the first nine months of this financial year. Employers also looked offshore for 19,260 professional staff, despite a pool of 83,700 Australians unemployed.

And 8150 managers were sponsored on 457 visas, despite 40,200 Australian managers on the dole queue…

Please tell me how allowing even more foreign workers into the country, when we already have a decade high level of unemployment, when the participation rate is continuing to fall so there's a high level of hidden unemployment, when youth unemployment is over 12% is in my interest, the unemployed's interest, and really the interests of civil society in Australia? Besides Gina the odd foreign resource company, who's interests is Abbott serving :confused:
 
sydboy007 said:
So what is your view on Abbott wanting to allow unlimited 457 visa workers into the country?

As reported in you primary source of information - The Australian

Official data reveals that while 67,000 Australian technicians and tradies search for work, employers have brought in 10,210 foreign trade workers on 457 work visas during the first nine months of this financial year. Employers also looked offshore for 19,260 professional staff, despite a pool of 83,700 Australians unemployed.

And 8150 managers were sponsored on 457 visas, despite 40,200 Australian managers on the dole queue…

Please tell me how allowing even more foreign workers into the country, when we already have a decade high level of unemployment, when the participation rate is continuing to fall so there's a high level of hidden unemployment, when youth unemployment is over 12% is in my interest, the unemployed's interest, and really the interests of civil society in Australia? Besides Gina the odd foreign resource company, who's interests is Abbott serving :confused:
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I believe you will find the reason why overseas workers are brought in on 457 visas is because the majority of Australians looking for these jobs do not want to relocate in to remote areas where these jobs are most available
Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job?

I am sure you are aware of this but you find it hard to admit it, instead like a lot of whingers in the Labor Party, they will twist things around to discredit the current government where ever they can.

Let us not forget unemployment went up by 200,000 during 2007/13.

Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.

I hope that answers your question.
 
so can we all agree that Abbott and Shorten are each as rotten as the others, just with different lobby groups and that neither are actually working for Australia.
We really need either some honest politicians or at least an alternate 3 rd party and no, the green are not one...
 
noco said:
Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job?
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A lot of people would, if the pay was good enough.

457's are a means of forcing down labour costs, rather than filling gaps.
 
noco said:
I believe you will find the reason why overseas workers are brought in on 457 visas is because the majority of Australians looking for these jobs do not want to relocate in to remote areas where these jobs are most available
Lets say hypothetically, you are settled in Sydney with your wife and family, a nice home and you are an unemployed diesel mechanic......A job comes up in a remote place in Western Australia...would you in all honesty accept that job?

I am sure you are aware of this but you find it hard to admit it, instead like a lot of whingers in the Labor Party, they will twist things around to discredit the current government where ever they can.

Let us not forget unemployment went up by 200,000 during 2007/13.

Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.

I hope that answers your question.
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I'm in IT so lets say I was uneployed in Sydney and saw a good job opportunity in WA I would use the following criteria for applying for the job:

* Soundness of the company - it costs a lot to relocate so if I'm likely to lose the job in a year then I'd probably stay put.

* Do I believe the current lack of employment opportunities in Sydney will continue for at least the 6 months - if not then I'd be inclined to continue to try and get a job where my family and friends are.

Is it wrong for someone to be disinclined to uproot their family and move them a long way from family and friends? Factor in the high levels of taxation around housing and it makes moving a very big financial expense - sale costs and likely new purchase costs. Did you ever face such a choice? So far I've been lucky enough to move between jobs in the same city. I'd honestly be reluctant to move from Sydney as it does have a more enlightened view of "gays" than most other cities, especially when compared to WA.

Can you present any evidence that the majority of 457 Visa jobs are in remote areas and that locals were given a fair chance to apply for the job? Isn't it just as likely that foreign workers were employed as a cheaper alternative at below local pay rates (not to be confused with below minimum pay rates). Certainly a lot of employers would love workers who have to remain subservient or they're shipped back off to where they came from and a new worker imported who Knows Their Place.

Possibly the fact it's nearly impossible to earn a liveable income from picking fruit, and the fact that it is back breaking labour so anyone thinking to take it up would need at least a month to ease into it - slower picking means less $$$ is why it's hard to get people willing to do the work. Who will help to pay the moving costs of the unemployed to move to a new area, especially in the Abbott era of no income support for 6 months? Should Abbott provide a 10K incentive for the unemployed over 50s to move to Tasmania to pick fruit? If they're of fit body they shouldn't they be required to work any job like it's expected of the young?

As for twisting the truth, the Abbott opposition and Government have spun so many lies and half truths it's just hard to keep up with the level of deception. From lies about funding cuts to the AFP, lies about the cost of electricity and the carbon tax, lies about why BHP decided against the Olympic dam expansion, lies over the NBN, lies about how they would be able to balance the budget and provide tax cuts.
 
qldfrog said:
so can we all agree that Abbott and Shorten are each as rotten as the others, just with different lobby groups and that neither are actually working for Australia.
We really need either some honest politicians or at least an alternate 3 rd party and no, the green are not one...
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Pretty much. The greens COULD be an alternative party, if they could get rid of the extremism in some of their policies. They're certainly at least acknowledging the house affordability crisis and the negative consequences it's having on society which is more than the LABERALs have done. Family first has a very good housing policy, but then their towards the religious nutter view of the world on most things.

The Sex party has a novel way of balancing the budget via legalising most drugs in personal use quantities and taxing their consumption. Seems a far better idea than our current expensive ban that does little to limit drug use and exposes people to potentially unsafe product.

Labor sickened me when they ignored so many good ideas in the Henry tax Review, Abbott sickens me because he's ignored them too and wasted money on another review that will likely make similar recommendations. It's also likely he will ignore most of the recommendations as they will strike at the very heart of the rentier class.

The party that has a viable policy based on attacking tax expenditures and affordable housing at < 4 times the median income of each capital city will likely get my vote. I fear flying pigs will occur before that happens.
 
sydboy007 said:
Pretty much. The greens COULD be an alternative party, if they could get rid of the extremism in some of their policies. They're certainly at least acknowledging the house affordability crisis and the negative consequences it's having on society which is more than the LABERALs have done. Family first has a very good housing policy, but then their towards the religious nutter view of the world on most things.

The Sex party has a novel way of balancing the budget via legalising most drugs in personal use quantities and taxing their consumption. Seems a far better idea than our current expensive ban that does little to limit drug use and exposes people to potentially unsafe product.

Labor sickened me when they ignored so many good ideas in the Henry tax Review, Abbott sickens me because he's ignored them too and wasted money on another review that will likely make similar recommendations. It's also likely he will ignore most of the recommendations as they will strike at the very heart of the rentier class.

The party that has a viable policy based on attacking tax expenditures and affordable housing at < 4 times the median income of each capital city will likely get my vote. I fear flying pigs will occur before that happens.
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What you said syd.

I think we need to ask whether the problem is the electorate rather than the politicians.

Why did a moderate, commonsense party like the Australian Democrats eventually fail ?

Not enough media attention ? Letting through the GST ? (Howard's majority fell sharply after the GST went through because he had a big majority). Infighting (Lees vs Stott-Despoia) ? Defection of Kernot ?

They had good policies, but not strong leadership. Maybe the electorate still plays the man and not the ball.
 
noco said:
Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.
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There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. My father is a part of the produce picking industry. He and a number of his co-workers applied for jobs picking some berries. A few weeks later the same company was talking about difficulty getting Australian workers. My father and his friends did not get the jobs. Most went to people on visas for the purpose of the berries. To rub salt in the wound they were housed in an incomplete building transformation for housing them - in the street my father lives in. Not even a washing machine or drier was provided. All in Tasmania.

A number of the labour hire companies involved with produce harvesting also own housing they rent out to their backpackers etc. A number of regional labour high companies involved also have arrangements with other labour hire companies and move people around as needed - the backpackers and people on various special visas.
 
I heard roughly the same thing-that backpackers were preferred to locals in Tasmania.From what I have heard the locals are shut out in a lot of areas.Teams of Cambodians etc. in our area tender for the whole crop of picking and supply their own labour.There are still niches left,but things are not what they were.
 
sydboy007 said:
So while you may be just as critical of Abbotts' fear mongering when he was in opposition, the majority on this forum only seem to see things as negative when it's Labor that's doing them.
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Perhaps consider that 'the majority on this forum' simply disagreed with the carbon tax and naturally enough would not wish to negate anything said against it.
And, if you have a grievance against what 'the majority on this forum' might or might not have said, maybe consider that you should address that grievance to that majority.

I'd love Labor to offer some smart alternative savings - they have all the Henry Tax review savings still to implement - but they're sadly playing from the small target rule book and are setting themselves up for the same revenue shortfalls that Abbott has gotten himself into.

The magic pudding of an ever expanding ToT and private debt has come to an end. Neither side of politics seems to have realised that as yet.
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On the contrary, all impressions suggest that the government has indeed realised the party is over and they are attempting to address the situation. Labor, on the other hand, seem to either actually still be in denial, or have also realised the oncoming mess, but have elected to maximise their political advantage by playing to the naivete and vulnerability of the electorate.

noco said:
Tasmania with the highest unemployment on the country cannot get workers to pick fruit so they have to rely on overseas workers to do the jobs. This is just an example of one industry.
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sydboy007 said:
Possibly the fact it's nearly impossible to earn a liveable income from picking fruit, and the fact that it is back breaking labour so anyone thinking to take it up would need at least a month to ease into it - slower picking means less $$$ is why it's hard to get people willing to do the work.
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I acknowledge that this is anecdotal evidence only, but every afternoon I walk through a large caravan park populated by itinerant baby boomers. Talking with them, 90% of them move around the country following seasonal fruit picking. They tell me, yes, it's quite hard work, but the money is good for those who are prepared to put in the effort.
Why can't the young unemployed, who presumably are a bit more physically fit than people in their late middle age, do the same?

Who will help to pay the moving costs of the unemployed to move to a new area, especially in the Abbott era of no income support for 6 months?
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I can't be bothered looking up the details for you, but there was an announcement quite recently that the government would provide removal expenses plus incentive payments for people prepared to move to where they could find work.

Should Abbott provide a 10K incentive for the unemployed over 50s to move to Tasmania to pick fruit? If they're of fit body they shouldn't they be required to work any job like it's expected of the young?
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Answered. See above.

SirRumpole said:
What you said syd.

I think we need to ask whether the problem is the electorate rather than the politicians.

Why did a moderate, commonsense party like the Australian Democrats eventually fail ?

Not enough media attention ? Letting through the GST ? (Howard's majority fell sharply after the GST went through because he had a big majority). Infighting (Lees vs Stott-Despoia) ? Defection of Kernot ?

They had good policies, but not strong leadership. Maybe the electorate still plays the man and not the ball.
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+1. A great shame that the infighting within the Democrats caused their demise.
The rot seemed to start with Cheryl Kernot defecting to Labor, presumably connected with her relationship with a prominent Labor figure. As a result, their status of the maintainers of integrity was compromised, it seemed.
 
Julia said:
+1. A great shame that the infighting within the Democrats caused their demise.
The rot seemed to start with Cheryl Kernot defecting to Labor, presumably connected with her relationship with a prominent Labor figure. As a result, their status of the maintainers of integrity was compromised, it seemed.
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+2 And Natasha Party Destroyer's continuous back stabbing and moving the party to the left didn't help.
 
Julia said:
On the contrary, all impressions suggest that the government has indeed realised the party is over and they are attempting to address the situation. Labor, on the other hand, seem to either actually still be in denial, or have also realised the oncoming mess, but have elected to maximise their political advantage by playing to the naivete and vulnerability of the electorate.
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Besides the changes to the mooted pension and fuel excise changes, the current Govt has not really done anything of a structural nature to help resolve medium term budget issues.

If the Abbott Govt can't bring themselves to have RBLS on super, then a 10K pre tax contribution limit is $6B saved, growing every year. Hardly affects anyone and saves a lot of $$$. Changes to NG, removing the halving of CGT, dropping their opposition to the economically rational changes to the statutory method for car FBT would actually show the age of entitlement is beginning to end. Ignoring tax expenditures shows a very shallow view to what the age of entitlement was all about.

Throw in the massive levels of military pork the Abbott Govt is shovelling out the door - 10 billion to $15 billion-program for just 1,000 locally produced armoured vehicles, and locally designed and built submarines for around $40 billion (yes Labor started it but they're continuing bad policy) and now Abbott is proposing to turn some of the Navy's Landing Helicopter Docks in aircraft carriers yet he hasn't changed the Australian JSF order to those with VTO capability, so there will be hundreds of millions to billions in required modifications on the aircraft and LHDs to fit in with his wants.

Lets also no mention that most of the budget cuts and cost increases are being used to fund the removal of the carbon tax and resource tax, both of which are relatively efficient taxes that are being replaced with lower service levels and less efficient taxes.
 
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