Ukraine War

[Sean K]

If u study history, u will understand that the notion of russia joining NATO is not possible.

Probably not, but could have been part of something better. A unified UE/Eurasia. Maybe wishful thinking. But as far as history is concerned, Russia was part of the Triple Entente and the Allies during the WWs. So, don't discount who gets into bed with who when it matters. My enemy's enemy if my friend and all that.

UMMmm , wasn't NATO formulated specifically to resist/destroy the Soviet Union ( NOT China , Afghanistan , Yugoslavia or Iraq )

Not sure about that Divs. Yes, NATO was, and is, primarily a defensive block against Russia/USSR, but I think it originated because of Russian expansion west and south, not because of the West trying to expand east.

Afghan and Iraq is another story.

 

[qldfrog]

UMMmm , wasn't NATO formulated specifically to resist/destroy the Soviet Union ( NOT China , Afghanistan , Yugoslavia or Iraq )

seems we have a pit-bull without any rival to fight ( in it's own backyard )



BTW you should be more worried about a self-destructive EU ( i am )

I think EU completed its own self destruction here , already well engaged.
Any reasonable politician would have joined EU and the west inc as we have a common culture, 1000y old actually.
But the US dod not want that and i can not blame them succeeding in destroying EU
started in Kosovo, bombing serbs and pushing up Poland and Turkey against former EU leaders.
Europe is paying the price and US is probably the only country gaining anything from that mess.
As for Ukrainians whose gdp had already, before the war started, decreased by 25%..pray for them Biden's son salary?
Ukraine is by far the poorer country in the area, gdp a third of russians and much lower than any neighbours.
The mistake Putin did is that he expected to be welcomed as a liberator.bring more democracy..not kidding .. Ukraine is a corrupt rotten mafia..and actually real meaning..organised crime...
Anyway.it backfired.
More worried by the UK sending missile and paying the Ukrainian mercenaries and troops..i would see that as a war act...escalation always..until Russians will have no way out but to flatten the place...
Remember that european premiers took the train to Kiev? 3 weeks after the start of the invasion so was not, initially at least, a destruction aim.

 

[Smurf1976]

"Yelling and screaming doesnt solve problems." History does not back up your comment.

Protests and demonstrations are an integral part of democracy.

Being a bit pedantic on my part but I'll argue that yelling and screaming of itself does not solve problems.

What it may achieve is to prompt the decision makers to solve it by other means, noting that they wouldn't have done so without the yelling and screaming but yelling and screaming of itself isn't the actual fix.

That's being pedantic I'll admit, and normally I dislike pedantic approaches quite strongly, but in this case I think the distinction needs making given the state of the world and how "tribal" debate seems to have become in recent times.

 

[Sean K]

Talk about the use of chemical weapons by Russia is concerning. Surely not. The World would have to respond to that sort of attack, not just NATO. I fear that if Russia gets bogged down and there’s a stalemate and siege of Kiev, Putin may be backed into a corner and have to do it. He can’t back down at this point and lose face. I think Ukraines resistance has surprised everyone. They’ve been underestimated, or Russia’s tactics have been very poor. Perhaps a combination.

 

[bluekelah]

Talk about the use of chemical weapons by Russia is concerning. Surely not. The World would have to respond to that sort of attack, not just NATO. I fear that if Russia gets bogged down and there’s a stalemate and siege of Kiev, Putin may be backed into a corner and have to do it. He can’t back down at this point and lose face. I think Ukraines resistance has surprised everyone. They’ve been underestimated, or Russia’s tactics have been very poor. Perhaps a combination.

Get the facts straight ..
It was just a fertiliser factory which was hit by Russian shelling on 21st march, resulting in release of some ammonia gases, a component of chemical fertilisers , requiring civilians to stay indoors.

So now the Americans are making up a task force to respond to possible chemical attacks. Lol...

So if the Russians somehow caused a nuclear leak by shelling one of the 15 nuclear reactors Ukraine has, then they will potentially use nuclear weapons? How about talk of nuclear response task force?

Russians said they shelled it coz the Ukrainians had planted mines , ready to explode the ammonia should Russia invade the city and kill civilians then blame it on the Russians.

That fertiliser factory is 226 hectares and makes 120000tonnes of fertiliser a year.

LOL.. I think Russian fertiliser exports just got a boost in prices

 

[JohnDe]

Get the facts straight ..

Russians said they shelled it coz the Ukrainians had planted mines , ready to explode the ammonia should Russia invade the city and kill civilians then blame it on the Russians.

Where is your reference material?

 

[bluekelah]

Where is your reference material?

Think I read it here,

Ammonia Leak Is Ukraine's 'Planned Provocation' To Falsely Accuse Russia Of Chemical Attack: Moscow

Ukraine's prosecutor general said the shelling caused a leak in a 50-tonne tank of ammonia that took hours to contain.

www.ibtimes.com.au

''The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed late Sunday "nationalists" had "mined" ammonia and chlorine storage facilities at Sumykhimprom "with the aim of mass poisoning of residents of the Sumy region, in case of entry into the city of units of the Russian Armed Forces."'

was reported on some other news websites as well.

was part of the Russian counter-claims that Ukraine was planning on doing chemical/bioweapons/WMD attacks.

 

[divs4ever]

Mad and insane has nothing to do with necessity, desperation, business and greed

on the contrary , the West have proven they will alter payment systems ( and access to them ) in other currencies ,
would you take debt notes ( promises to pay ) from a known dead-beat AND currency manipulator

i still think Russia should only accept payment ( from untrusted customers ) in silver and gold ( delivered straight the the Russian Central bank , not that other paper confetti , certificates )

after all OTHERS can buy that oil , gas , fertilizer , neon gas , etc etc , China has a BIG appetite , and India is growing one , and Pakistan has room to grow as well

 

[Sean K]

Get the facts straight ..

You are either not following this war, or deliberately flaming.

 

[bluekelah]

on the contrary , the West have proven they will alter payment systems ( and access to them ) in other currencies ,
would you take debt notes ( promises to pay ) from a known dead-beat AND currency manipulator

i still think Russia should only accept payment ( from untrusted customers ) in silver and gold ( delivered straight the the Russian Central bank , not that other paper confetti , certificates )

after all OTHERS can buy that oil , gas , fertilizer , neon gas , etc etc , China has a BIG appetite , and India is growing one , and Pakistan has room to grow as well

This is a very informative video by Ray Dalio. Shows how in history world powers have had their reserve currencies and how they all follow the same path. Dutch gilder / British pound and now US dollar, how they all eventually depreciate massively to gold. Next one he pegs is likely China as the next rising power and reserve currency


I reckon thats pretty much where things are heading now with China already first in the world with a national digital currency, largest by value credit card system(UnionPay) and currently increasing use of their CIPS system(Chinese SWIFT) by Russia and other trading partners (mainly the BRICS emerging market nations. Also courting the Saudis/OPEC to pay in yuan for oil, potential Chinese petrodollar.)

 

[divs4ever]

RUSSIA JUST CHANGED THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM | HISTORY MADE​

yep it all relies on trust ( good luck on trusting the right people)

 

[qldfrog]

You are either not following this war, or deliberately flaming.

Or maybe not taking any US/Ukrainian gov report as THE source of truth?

By the way,did the 3 premiers who took the train to Kiev after 3 weeks of intense war managed to find a night train ticket back.

Polish, Czech and Slovene leaders arrive in Ukraine – DW – 03/15/2022

The Polish and Czech premiers pledged support for the country's independence after meeting with Ukrainian leadership in Kyiv, while Polish deputy PM Kaczynski called for a peacekeeping force to be sent to Ukraine.

www.dw.com

What a farce....
But real people die.
Worse:
I am actually scared by Biden's insistence on chem weapons as it usually precedes a manipulation to show how clearvoyant the US are.

So I am now scared that this will be triggered.
There are no limits to evil and greed, and it is definitively not only spelt in Cyrillic

 

[JohnDe]

Think I read it here,

Ammonia Leak Is Ukraine's 'Planned Provocation' To Falsely Accuse Russia Of Chemical Attack: Moscow

Ukraine's prosecutor general said the shelling caused a leak in a 50-tonne tank of ammonia that took hours to contain.

www.ibtimes.com.au

''The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed late Sunday "nationalists" had "mined" ammonia and chlorine storage facilities at Sumykhimprom "with the aim of mass poisoning of residents of the Sumy region, in case of entry into the city of units of the Russian Armed Forces."'

was reported on some other news websites as well.

was part of the Russian counter-claims that Ukraine was planning on doing chemical/bioweapons/WMD attacks.

So you believe the Russian account over the Ukrainian report because?

“As a result of the shelling 1 tank with ammonia was damaged,” Ukraine’s state emergency services said​

​

The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed late Sunday "nationalists" had "mined" ammonia and chlorine storage facilities at Sumykhimprom "with the aim of mass poisoning of residents of the Sumy region​

The same Russian's that said that a Nuclear power station was mined, even though video footage showed differently. What about the Russian reports that Ukranian troops were bombing their own cities, and the video of a Russian tank firing on an apartment block?

Proof is evidence. Russia keep telling stories of what has happened and what is happening, but they offer no proof. Propaganda is a tool of war, both sides are using it but Russia is the master of lies.

Meet The Mysterious Duo Who Just Bought Newsweek

Johnathan Davis and Etienne Uzac The news that Newsweek had been sold to IBT Media was received by most of the media world over the weekend as the final, clinching evidence of the magazine's abasement. To be handed off to a publisher that even most people in the news business had [...]

www.forbes.com

 

[divs4ever]

yes REAL people die , buildings are destroyed , assets ( commodities get wasted )

being scared ( worried ) is OK , but use it as an incentive for extra planning , and to search for opportunity ( look for that silver lining )

evil and greed it is UP to you to control those issues in yourself ( stop letting others control you with them )

 

[divs4ever]

i am more likely to believe the Russian accounts because Kiev is still mostly intact , Russia had the capacity to put hundreds of tank ( and paratroopers ) in the centre of the city within 24 hours of wishing to ( and apparently haven't

let's go back to the Iraq War ( part II) one side was quite proud of the destruction they wrought , filmed , televised it and never showed any remorse .. so either Russia is embarrassed by such things ( unlike NATO ) or they aren't blowing up much in comparison ( after all they opened 3 fronts simultaneously )

BUT the first casualty of war is TRUTH , or as Sun Tzu said , 'all war is based on deception '

 

[JohnDe]

i am more likely to believe the Russian accounts because Kiev is still mostly intact , Russia had the capacity to put hundreds of tank ( and paratroopers ) in the centre of the city within 24 hours of wishing to ( and apparently haven't

let's go back to the Iraq War ( part II) one side was quite proud of the destruction they wrought , filmed , televised it and never showed any remorse .. so either Russia is embarrassed by such things ( unlike NATO ) or they aren't blowing up much in comparison ( after all they opened 3 fronts simultaneously )

BUT the first casualty of war is TRUTH , or as Sun Tzu said , 'all war is based on deception '

? ? ? ? you keep putting your foot in it.

"yep it all relies on trust ( good luck on trusting the right people)" "i am more likely to believe the Russian accounts"​

 

[againsthegrain]

there is 3m+ refugees that fled Ukraine so far, I guess they are all paid Ukrainian propaganda trolls and their homes are all still there with the russians evene washing their windows and taking out the rubbish to keep them in top shape

 

[divs4ever]

i don't think the Ukraine is particularly healthy at all , remember all the years various foreign aid has been flowing , right back to the Obama ( and Biden's $1 Billion ' sack the prosecutor or no aid ' moment ) AND if Russia stops using the Ukraine to transit gas through , it will take another economic hit ( if haven't seen any news about Russia upgrading/maintaining that aging pipeline in the future )

the Russians hammered out an agreement in 2015 that the West and Ukraine Government never followed for even a few months

now it will be interesting to see how many will be economic refugees ( moving to a more prosperous economy , that is liable to be permanent ) the ones seeking in refugee in Russia are more likely to return to the Ukraine after peace returns ( Russia isn't a quantum leap up the economic prosperity scale , so home will have it's appeal )

there is a real possibility the Ukraine will descend into a chaotic power vacuum ( like Libya ) , i would think both sides ( EU and Russia ) would prefer that didn't happen

 

[JohnDe]

i don't think the Ukraine is particularly healthy at all , remember all the years various foreign aid has been flowing , right back to the Obama ( and Biden's $1 Billion ' sack the prosecutor or no aid ' moment ) AND if Russia stops using the Ukraine to transit gas through , it will take another economic hit ( if haven't seen any news about Russia upgrading/maintaining that aging pipeline in the future )

the Russians hammered out an agreement in 2015 that the West and Ukraine Government never followed for even a few months

now it will be interesting to see how many will be economic refugees ( moving to a more prosperous economy , that is liable to be permanent ) the ones seeking in refugee in Russia are more likely to return to the Ukraine after peace returns ( Russia isn't a quantum leap up the economic prosperity scale , so home will have it's appeal )

there is a real possibility the Ukraine will descend into a chaotic power vacuum ( like Libya ) , i would think both sides ( EU and Russia ) would prefer that didn't happen

Lay a wager on that?

 

[divs4ever]

Lay a wager on that?

no but let's see what happens i see various concerns that some of those refugees probably weren't born in the Ukraine , flowing into the EU

also remember there is a fair-sized Greek ( ethnic ) community in the Ukraine , so the whole thing could become rather complicated