Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Trading Indicators Are Useless

lesm said:
Hi Mags,

Your posts are as lucid as one would always expect.

There is no question about you knowing your stuff. Demonstrated many times.

Agree that honest objectivity and balance is required in this and many other areas. Good healthy debate and discussion, even challenging approaches is also a good way to learn.

The question in my mind is with respect to the precision that is implicit or alluded to in how time based analysis is presented.

If I can be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

One should question implying or inferring a high degree of confidence in qualitative approaches, unless other information is available to support it. This may mean that a level of quantification (or maybe knowledge based or experiential factors) is/are being applied. In this regard, +/- 1 day in market terms implies a high degree of confidence or that there is a low standard error on the forecast or prediction.

If we assume that the forecast or prediction is based on the information provided in the chart regardless of the technique used, then information or events that are out of scope of the analysis have not been considered.

If any external events later influence or alter the outcome then it cannot be concluded, in practical terms, that the outcome is necessarily valid based on the original analysis.

In experimental research this type of outcome would be referred to as a contaminated experiment, hence the outcome cannot be considered valid.

I assume that the analysis did not take into account recent events related to the Chinese market or Iran's nuclear activities or other factors that caused the latest correction besides normal market cycle activity.

It may also have just been a matter of coincidence, so unless we turn back the clock and remove the external events we will never really know.

With respect to your comment on rewriting history. History in the markets has show that various approaches work well in some time frames or cycles and not in others. In this regard, we should not forget the lessons learnt from history. We should also remember that as the market dynamics change that we need to change, modify or refine our approaches to suit the dynamics of the time. That is unless anyone can truly develop a method that suits all market conditions and the changing dynamics.

There are a number of areas of technical analysis and approaches that should be challenged, as too many players are still chanting a mantra that is potentially outdated and is inadequte for dealing with market dynamics. Bit like a one size fits all approach that is fundamentally flawed and no lateral thought processes.

Anyway, having said the above, I really like your work as well as wavepicker's. One area of wavepickers work that piqued my interest was related to his comments on detrending and his approach to cyclical analysis.

Look forward to your response and it was a good prediction.

Regards,
Les.
Hello Les!


Great to see you in action! How are you? How is your trading? Hope it’s all going well.

By the way, I have digested Phantom of the Pits, and incorporated some of the thinking into my approach, but in a kind of opposite way to the way he works. I figured out that he was a very short time frame player, and his T/A was limited which drove his trading style, rules and psychology. Oddly enough, some of his approaches are antithetical to my style which is fine (horses for courses), but the contrast was very useful, and highlighted some areas I made radical changes too (for the better). So thanks for that, it was quite constructive.

Thanks also for the salutation. Much appreciated.

Now down to the issue at hand: There’s nothing wrong with healthy scepticism and free and open debate. You know I embrace this as much as you do.

I agree that history has shown that certain methods are better in specific conditions. I have consistently supported this position in many of my posts, so you will only get agreement on this point from me.

The point I was making about the attempt to rewrite history was that there were some posts which were making out that their approach was the only one which has identified the imminent high, which was untrue. Several methods identified that the trend was at risk which is commendable. With respect though, I didn’t see any other call for a top from a month out with a specific +/- 1 trading day date, let alone call the index level (in this case within a point).

Now, I have also consistently held the view that any method has limited application, including all the techniques wavepicker and I use independently or in tandem. In fact I did say in several posts that EW, time cycles, and even straight charting are really limited to a minority percentage of conditions. I believe this to be true of most technical analysis approaches.

Having said that though, the beauty of EW and geometric/time cycle based approaches is that these styles have what I would describe as being fairly universal concepts which can be applied in a broad range of market conditions. Interestingly the strength of these styles is in their innate flexibility, and if a practitioner is thoroughly conversant with the discipline’s theory and practice, is able to apply a broad range of techniques and axioms to practically any market. The wisdom required is knowing when to use which technique.

As for random events upsetting patterns of trend, you are certainly correct, a nuclear war could inadvertently start tomorrow, an asteroid could bring on the next ice age, the sun could blow up… and other equally facetious events… but how likely are these events? I keep plugging the Douglas line that “anything can happen” and accept this.

Even the best looking forecast can fall to pieces instantly, no argument. The point I make is about probabilities and how to assess these in a dynamic environment where there are no certainties. This is the challenge for any approach. There is no holy grail, but there certainly are differences in the effectiveness of different approaches.

What I’m doing is welding together a range of disciplines and approaches in order to achieve the best mix of consistently profitable analysis, risk management, strategy, and trading style in an environment where the outcomes are unknown (all any of us have is our best shot method – its just that some methods work better than others). Will the geometric/time cycle based system work every time? No, of course not. The art is in knowing when to use it, and how. I have just demonstrated how powerful it can be in the right hands used correctly, that’s all. If that doesn’t peak serious players’ interest, that’s fine too.

Given that there was a lot of scepticism about the Geometric/time cycle based style in the past, and calls for a practical demonstration, I would have thought that pretty much picking the day from a month out, and the price from a week out would have been more than sufficient. Can this be done consistently? Behind the scenes you bet it can, and a select few have seen accurate prices come in, or accurate times, over and over. They know who they are. Do I believe in this style? You bet I do. What amazes me is when the peon brigade make fascicle comments like it’s an “each way bet”. What utter nonsense.

As for taking into account all events in the world, this is not likely. My appraisal is that we all have to sift through a deluge of information (much of it conflicting) and somehow make financial decisions based on our individual understanding. This is one method of doing that. It is not perfect because information is not perfect. But I’ll tell you, it’s a bloody lot more effective than a simple moving average crossover, that’s for sure!


Warm regards


Magdoran

P.S. Geez Les, we'd better stop this, or I won't get any work done! Mag
 
Moggi.

Your either an exceptionally fast typist or your the best Ive seen in time management.
 
Magdoran said:
Hello Les!


Great to see you in action! How are you? How is your trading? Hope it’s all going well.

By the way, I have digested Phantom of the Pits, and incorporated some of the thinking into my approach, but in a kind of opposite way to the way he works. I figured out that he was a very short time frame player, and his T/A was limited which drove his trading style, rules and psychology. Oddly enough, some of his approaches are antithetical to my style which is fine (horses for courses), but the contrast was very useful, and highlighted some areas I made radical changes too (for the better). So thanks for that, it was quite constructive.

Thanks also for the salutation. Much appreciated.

Now down to the issue at hand: There’s nothing wrong with healthy scepticism and free and open debate. You know I embrace this as much as you do.

I agree that history has shown that certain methods are better in specific conditions. I have consistently supported this position in many of my posts, so you will only get agreement on this point from me.

The point I was making about the attempt to rewrite history was that there were some posts which were making out that their approach was the only one which has identified the imminent high, which was untrue. Several methods identified that the trend was at risk which is commendable. With respect though, I didn’t see any other call for a top from a month out with a specific +/- 1 trading day date, let alone call the index level (in this case within a point).

Now, I have also consistently held the view that any method has limited application, including all the techniques wavepicker and I use independently or in tandem. In fact I did say in several posts that EW, time cycles, and even straight charting are really limited to a minority percentage of conditions. I believe this to be true of most technical analysis approaches.

Having said that though, the beauty of EW and geometric/time cycle based approaches is that these styles have what I would describe as being fairly universal concepts which can be applied in a broad range of market conditions. Interestingly the strength of these styles is in their innate flexibility, and if a practitioner is thoroughly conversant with the discipline’s theory and practice, is able to apply a broad range of techniques and axioms to practically any market. The wisdom required is knowing when to use which technique.

As for random events upsetting patterns of trend, you are certainly correct, a nuclear war could inadvertently start tomorrow, an asteroid could bring on the next ice age, the sun could blow up… and other equally facetious events… but how likely are these events? I keep plugging the Douglas line that “anything can happen” and accept this.

Even the best looking forecast can fall to pieces instantly, no argument. The point I make is about probabilities and how to assess these in a dynamic environment where there are no certainties. This is the challenge for any approach. There is no holy grail, but there certainly are differences in the effectiveness of different approaches.

What I’m doing is welding together a range of disciplines and approaches in order to achieve the best mix of consistently profitable analysis, risk management, strategy, and trading style in an environment where the outcomes are unknown (all any of us have is our best shot method – its just that some methods work better than others). Will the geometric/time cycle based system work every time? No, of course not. The art is in knowing when to use it, and how. I have just demonstrated how powerful it can be in the right hands used correctly, that’s all. If that doesn’t peak serious players’ interest, that’s fine too.

Given that there was a lot of scepticism about the Geometric/time cycle based style in the past, and calls for a practical demonstration, I would have thought that pretty much picking the day from a month out, and the price from a week out would have been more than sufficient. Can this be done consistently? Behind the scenes you bet it can, and a select few have seen accurate prices come in, or accurate times, over and over. They know who they are. Do I believe in this style? You bet I do. What amazes me is when the peon brigade make fascicle comments like it’s an “each way bet”. What utter nonsense.

As for taking into account all events in the world, this is not likely. My appraisal is that we all have to sift through a deluge of information (much of it conflicting) and somehow make financial decisions based on our individual understanding. This is one method of doing that. It is not perfect because information is not perfect. But I’ll tell you, it’s a bloody lot more effective than a simple moving average crossover, that’s for sure!


Warm regards


Magdoran

P.S. Geez Les, we'd better stop this, or I won't get any work done! Mag
Hi Mags,

Your certainly predictable, knew it wouldn't be a short response. :)

Everything is going well. Been quiet marketwise, as we had a death in the family, which required a change of focus and priorities.

Have been spending some time learning EW in more detail and working on some alternative approaches to trading.

Over the last few years have moved on to what I would describe as strategy trading. Hence, it required rethinking the trading approach and looking at developing strategies for different conditions/situations.

Glad that you found POP useful. It's interesting that although something may be in opposition to our views or beliefs that it can cause us to relook or rethink our approach and provide some beneficial refinements.

No disagreement with a number of the points that you have raised. Information overload trying to take account all possible scenarions would lead to too much confusion and conflict endign up in analysis paralysis.

The external events or influences will always exist, we just need to be in a position to ensure that we manage their impact in an effective manner. The risk management element of the equation.

Would certainly support your point related to flexibility and the use of a range of techinques depending on th esituation. As you will appreciate, failure to adapt to market conditions or dynamics will place people on the wrong side of the market. Not a healthy place to be.

Think that the issue with a number of the proponents of cyclical/time based approaches is they put it forward in a manner akin to a black art. They then compound the issue by not being prepared to explain their approach or demonstrate it at a practical level.

This is an area where you have always been open, especially on the 'Improving Chart Analysis' thread, in providing a practical demonstration and answer questions. Your more recent activities have expanded on this aspect.

A little bit of scepticism is always healthy. It is certainly better than accepting approaches at face value and not really understanding the underlying theory and concepts. This can lead to poor application of the approach, discarding it for the wrong reasons or trashing it unmercifully.

Its has been interesting watching pyschology in action over the last few days as we have seen recent events unfold. The next few weeks should also be interesting.

One day some people will learn to be more control of their trading and they will realise that it is just another day in the market and to deal with it accordingly no different to any other day. As tech/a would say 'follow their blueprint', will certainly reduce the stress levels.

Certainly intersted in the approach that wavepicker and yourself use, as I see some benefits in it. Will need to have read through McLaren as well. Another thing to put on the To Do list.

With regard to the peon brigade, while they may be good with the cliches, it's what they really do in the market that counts at the end of the day.

Will keep it short, so that you can get some work done.

Regards,
Les.
 
theasxgorilla said:
This is really trading or investing 101. Contemplate the worst case scenario, prep for it, then open the position anyway and pray you make a profit.
For some.

For others it is seeking non correlated instruments in the commodities markets, trading any instrument both short and long, and/or the use of option strategies to either hedge, trade direction, or trade volatility.

Cheers
 
wayneL said:
For some.

For others it is seeking non correlated instruments in the commodities markets, trading any instrument both short and long, and/or the use of option strategies to either hedge, trade direction, or trade volatility.

Cheers

Just adding:

The trading 101 version will get you out and into cash while the market is tanking.

But I can tell you, myself, Doom, Mag, The Ducster et al (there are plenty of us here) fully intend to profit from this blip/correction/bear market/crash/apocalypse (insert favourite emotive phrase).

Cheers
 
tech/a said:
Moggi.

Your either an exceptionally fast typist or your the best Ive seen in time management.
Hello Daffy,


Possibly a bit of both, but I can touch type which helps. All those years of 150+ page IT tenders does wonder for your keyboard abilities I assure you! Also, having a good dialogue with a piquant poster helps motivationally too!

Mag
 
lesm said:
Hi Mags,

Your certainly predictable, knew it wouldn't be a short response. :)

Everything is going well. Been quiet marketwise, as we had a death in the family, which required a change of focus and priorities.

Have been spending some time learning EW in more detail and working on some alternative approaches to trading.

Over the last few years have moved on to what I would describe as strategy trading. Hence, it required rethinking the trading approach and looking at developing strategies for different conditions/situations.

Glad that you found POP useful. It's interesting that although something may be in opposition to our views or beliefs that it can cause us to relook or rethink our approach and provide some beneficial refinements.

No disagreement with a number of the points that you have raised. Information overload trying to take account all possible scenarions would lead to too much confusion and conflict endign up in analysis paralysis.

The external events or influences will always exist, we just need to be in a position to ensure that we manage their impact in an effective manner. The risk management element of the equation.

Would certainly support your point related to flexibility and the use of a range of techinques depending on th esituation. As you will appreciate, failure to adapt to market conditions or dynamics will place people on the wrong side of the market. Not a healthy place to be.

Think that the issue with a number of the proponents of cyclical/time based approaches is they put it forward in a manner akin to a black art. They then compound the issue by not being prepared to explain their approach or demonstrate it at a practical level.

This is an area where you have always been open, especially on the 'Improving Chart Analysis' thread, in providing a practical demonstration and answer questions. Your more recent activities have expanded on this aspect.

A little bit of scepticism is always healthy. It is certainly better than accepting approaches at face value and not really understanding the underlying theory and concepts. This can lead to poor application of the approach, discarding it for the wrong reasons or trashing it unmercifully.

Its has been interesting watching pyschology in action over the last few days as we have seen recent events unfold. The next few weeks should also be interesting.

One day some people will learn to be more control of their trading and they will realise that it is just another day in the market and to deal with it accordingly no different to any other day. As tech/a would say 'follow their blueprint', will certainly reduce the stress levels.

Certainly intersted in the approach that wavepicker and yourself use, as I see some benefits in it. Will need to have read through McLaren as well. Another thing to put on the To Do list.

With regard to the peon brigade, while they may be good with the cliches, it's what they really do in the market that counts at the end of the day.

Will keep it short, so that you can get some work done.

Regards,
Les.
Hello Les,


Oh, I am so sorry to hear about your family tragedy, please accept my sincerest condolences. I can only imagine the grief for your family (I have been there too)…

Glad to see you’re looking into EW, that is a journey in itself that I am still working through myself. wavepicker is very knowledgeable and gifted, and spins my head sometimes with his T/A skills.

Good luck with your journey too, sounds like you are developing as well, good to see.

The reason why geometric/cycle based styles seem to be “black box” is that they require a lot of individual development based on recognising the pattern of the trend, and it almost works counter intuitively at first (as does the market I suppose). It is not easy to learn (just as EW is involved too), but if you can stick it through, ultimately very rewarding.

Re McLaren, you could either go to a seminar if he is giving one, or there is the foundations DVD set if you are so inclined. For me, it changed my trading radically, and I’ve never looked back – and I hope it does for anyone interested in gaining a solid T/A background.

As for the peanut gallery, how true, the market is a teacher that’s for sure!


Regards


Magdoran
 
Magdoran said:
Trade It,


There are alternatives to using lagging indicators and oscillators. The technical analysis style I use doesn’t use any of these.

If you care to sweep back through my posts on technical analysis I suggest that these kinds of indicators actually obscure “seeing” the market, and McLaren characterises them as “trading shadows on the wall” (unless you use them the way wavepicker does with his cycle analysis/FFT style).

Just a bar chart and volume to the trained eye will tell you a lot if you know what you are doing without any tools or indicators at all. Pure charting and knowing how to interpret the data is central in my opinion to improving your analysis.

Key concepts like understanding trends and more importantly counter trends is central – especially pattern of trend, wave structure, divisions of range (retracement and extension). Add to that time cycles and knowing how to use these effectively can be very powerful.

Anyone with any kind of solid grounding in technical analysis was able to see the probabilities increasing for a pull back of some sort recently, and many posted to this effect well in advance, some even calling fairly accurate time and price level windows, so the capacity to do so is there.

The current methods you are employing are highly unlikely to identify these patterns; hence you will have to accept the limitations of your chosen style of trading, and live with it, or consequently decide to embark on some research into alternative methods. It’s your choice.



Regards,


Magdoran

Magdoran

thanks for the comments,

i still disagree with you that obv is a useless indicator it shows money moving in and out of the market, it's connected straight to volume.

Now If you sweep though my posts you will also see I was saying I saw a pull back aswell on the XJO XAO & agreed the dow was very weak on the short term.

why cuz I could see it running into a wall but i will not sell untill it breaks my lines that i have drawn in not a breach a break, weather it breaks it by 200 pts or 50 is up to the market.

I saw this coming as well heance the reason i did not open any new positions on the XJO after it closed above 6000 it did not look right to me.

but the DOW was clear as day that it was sick on the short term.

guys i have only been trading now 1.5 years and only worked out a system 6 months ago so please keep it coming i value all your points.

but if your going to have a shot at any ones trading methods and say the way u do it is better, then i would like to see charts and proof supporting your claims

because differnt things work better for differnt people
 
Trade_It said:
Magdoran

thanks for the comments,

i still disagree with you that obv is a useless indicator it shows money moving in and out of the market, it's connected straight to volume.

Now If you sweep though my posts you will also see I was saying I saw a pull back aswell on the XJO XAO & agreed the dow was very weak on the short term.

why cuz I could see it running into a wall but i will not sell untill it breaks my lines that i have drawn in not a breach a break, weather it breaks it by 200 pts or 50 is up to the market.

I saw this coming as well heance the reason i did not open any new positions on the XJO after it closed above 6000 it did not look right to me.

but the DOW was clear as day that it was sick on the short term.

guys i have only been trading now 1.5 years and only worked out a system 6 months ago so please keep it coming i value all your points.

but if your going to have a shot at any ones trading methods and say the way u do it is better, then i would like to see charts and proof supporting your claims

because differnt things work better for differnt people
Hello Trade It,


I hope you find my comments constructive and thought provoking, that is my intention. Offering alternative view points for consideration.

Of course you disagree with my view on OBV. It’s what you are used to, and if it works for you, fine. I discarded this approach a long time ago, and that was my decision too. It really depends on your preferences, ability, and style, doesn’t it?

As for recent events, many saw the indexes were looking tired, which is great, and you are obviously one of them, good to see. But few knew when to act with precision. Those that couldn’t tell either exited or protected or reduced their longs, which was wise.

As for using a moving average exit, it gets you out often at the wrong time, when it’s often obvious it’s time to get out, and if you use my style, you can project probable areas of support and resistance in time and price, hence know when to take partial profits and full exits, and when to add/re-enter positions. But this has a lot to do with trading styles.

While I have read a few of your posts, have you read through mine? I have systematically stated my case, and if you care to wade through all my posts on T/A, my position may make more sense. Rather than me revisiting all the old arguments, why not take the time to go right back through these discussions and see what you think, then raise whatever counter arguments you like there? (Forgive me but I’m getting tired of having to reinvent the wheel)… How does that sound?

Regards


Magdoran
 
Magdoran said:
Hello Trade It,


As for using a moving average exit, it gets you out often at the wrong time, when it’s often obvious it’s time to get out, and if you use my style, you can project probable areas of support and resistance in time and price, hence know when to take partial profits and full exits, and when to add/re-enter positions. But this has a lot to do with trading styles.


Magdoran

Totally agree with you Mag, using lagging MA’s does not compare to looking at the pattern of the trend. For starters the way most charting packages are set up to use MA’s is really wrong.. The only exception offcourse it if you are using a zero lag filter or something very close to that. The most common ones are are as follows:-

-Hull MA
-Weighted MA
-John Ehlers MAMA Moving Average

There are a few others as well that have recently been developed such as the Jurik filter

But one really has to find out what the MA doing and what it is representing on order to best utilize it. In the case of a MA of a selected span it is representing the sum of the cycles greater than the span selected.

Otherwise as you say, traders using such systems are just "chasing shadows accross the wall".

Cheers
 
Magdoran said:
Hello Trade It,


I hope you find my comments constructive and thought provoking, that is my intention. Offering alternative view points for consideration.

Of course you disagree with my view on OBV. It’s what you are used to, and if it works for you, fine. I discarded this approach a long time ago, and that was my decision too. It really depends on your preferences, ability, and style, doesn’t it?

As for recent events, many saw the indexes were looking tired, which is great, and you are obviously one of them, good to see. But few knew when to act with precision. Those that couldn’t tell either exited or protected or reduced their longs, which was wise.

As for using a moving average exit, it gets you out often at the wrong time, when it’s often obvious it’s time to get out, and if you use my style, you can project probable areas of support and resistance in time and price, hence know when to take partial profits and full exits, and when to add/re-enter positions. But this has a lot to do with trading styles.

While I have read a few of your posts, have you read through mine? I have systematically stated my case, and if you care to wade through all my posts on T/A, my position may make more sense. Rather than me revisiting all the old arguments, why not take the time to go right back through these discussions and see what you think, then raise whatever counter arguments you like there? (Forgive me but I’m getting tired of having to reinvent the wheel)… How does that sound?

Regards


Magdoran

Frist as I stated before I am a 25 year old newbie to this.

I have looked at your posts in trading the spi you do have great posts well done on your recent analysis

now i have only used OBV for a while now used to use MACD and ma's and i found the same probs they do lag, MACD and MA in a side ways market will drive u nuts on false signels. The daily dow chart i posted is proof of that

using trends obv with volume is what works for me now on this bull market , there is a weakness to try and time shorts using this set up

on the long side it works great entries in September and jan after sell offs stopped that's why i wont agree with you that it's usless or not good cuz i have made lots of cash since the may correction.

Now onto what just happened i saw weakness but i had no idea when it would occur only evidence was if you watched china during that day then watch our market sell of to 44pts you could have said ok short it but I did not see it coming like it did come.

your style of trading is something that interests me a lot cuz Jessie Livermore is my fav trader. he used tape reading to feel for weakness and strength in the markets

i will want to look at learning that in the near future.

thank again for your reply Magdoran and i value your coments :)
 
Magdoran and others

OBV

just shows on that day weather the volume for that day was selling or buying all i want to see is that its buying volume. I dont veiw it as a magic entry signal

on real time is does not even lag it moves all day with the price bar or candel
 
Trade_It said:
Magdoran and others

OBV

just shows on that day weather the volume for that day was selling or buying all i want to see is that its buying volume. I dont veiw it as a magic entry signal

on real time is does not even lag it moves all day with the price bar or candel
The way I look at markets now is radically different to that style of approach. The belief being that that kind of indicator actually obscures what is really going on… but that’s just my opinion of course…

Oh man is your head going to spin when you start trying to read through some of the technical analysis concepts in depth and try to get your head around the concept of market cycles, not in the orthodox way, but really start to perceive these things.

I look forward to the day seeing the light go on in your head, and the revelation hits you! Good luck in your Journey!


Mag
 
Magdoran said:
The way I look at markets now is radically different to that style of approach. The belief being that that kind of indicator actually obscures what is really going on… but that’s just my opinion of course…

Oh man is your head going to spin when you start trying to read through some of the technical analysis concepts in depth and try to get your head around the concept of market cycles, not in the orthodox way, but really start to perceive these things.

I look forward to the day seeing the light go on in your head, and the revelation hits you! Good luck in your Journey!


Mag

Magdoran

One thing I have learnt in the market is to never try to be right once you try to do that you always lose!

And the way I have approached this conversation with you has been like that I have jumped up with ego trying to defend my knowledge with out asking you why you say this.

I must say sorry to you for being pig headed.

I would like to understand more about your trading style and techniques is there any books or links to information i could read?

Regards
Joesph
 
Trade_It said:
Magdoran

One thing I have learnt in the market is to never try to be right once you try to do that you always lose!

And the way I have approached this conversation with you has been like that I have jumped up with ego trying to defend my knowledge with out asking you why you say this.

I must say sorry to you for being pig headed.

I would like to understand more about your trading style and techniques is there any books or links to information i could read?

Regards
Joesph
Hello Joseph,


There’s absolutely no problem at all with having a dialogue, or even a little polemic, as long as it’s in good spirit… that’s how many of us learn, isn’t it?

I also don’t have a problem with constructive scepticism, or with people being reluctant to easily negate or modify their approaches at the drop of a hat. Core ideas should not be easily discarded, and generally modified after careful consideration and research. Certainly pig headed stubbornness and stupidity are not virtues I would ascribe to, which usually involves an unhealthy dogmatism wedded to faulty ideas without the possibility of change and improvement.

If you want to know more, just take your time, and go right back to the threads I and other T/A players have commented in, and use your own judgement to try to make sense of the discussions. I don’t have a monopoly on good ideas (far from it), but I do have some alternative views to contribute to the mix, and maybe some of the dialogues you read may speak to you.

Interestingly Les drew my attention to “phantom of the pits” which was a very interesting read, but was kind of the inverse of what I and others I’ve collaborated with are doing. But just reading it led me to consider avenues I probably would not have readily considered that were beneficial…

You might find the same thing in your journey. All the materials that I can provide is contained in a range of posts I’ve made, and I’m sure you will be able to pick and choose whatever you like from it (as well of course from the other notable posters in the threads too).

Rather than name all the other notable posters that are worth reading here, I’ll let you decide that for yourself.

Just be open to considering new ideas, that’s all. Open, but discerning.


Regards


Magdoran
 
Joseph.

Ive got to agree with Moggi here.
From what I see Moggi uses a combination of Elliot and Gann.
both time and price cycles along with price points and price projections both up and down.

I wont comment on Gann---BUT

If your going to MAXIMISE profits in the business you need to know.

(1) Where Price is at relative to that which your trading right now
(a) A corrective move?
(b) A consolidation ?
(c) A trend or impulsive move?

(2) Where Price is GOING
(3) When will it get there.
(4) When will price show me my analysis is correct---our incorrect.
This is the one most get have problem getting their head around as it appears to the un trained that the goal posts get moved during a trade!!

While it may appear Moggi is being egotistical (Its nice that its someone else and not me for a change),he's not.
He can and so can quite a few others I know---and I'm getting better at it.

Answer ALL of the above in the majority of charts, in his trading.

Just sit back and think for a minute.

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO YOUR TRADING if you could do all of the above?? (1-4).

Radge put it best I feel,analysis is a continual
"Prove,Disprove,Prove,Disprove."

There is no point in even attempting to explain how he trades to the masses,or anyone who uses Elliot,VSA or for that matter GANN.
It takes years to master,even to gain a competency,Ive been at it spasmotically for 12 and a have a basic understanding.Even this is enough to improve my short term trading Dramatically.

Demonstrations will be seen as bewildering (No GANN traders I havent turned,not to GANN).to those with little or no understanding.

Its WELL worth the effort and if at anytime you consider trading as opposed to Investing--- serious amounts in the market (Say that which you would invest on a house) you NEED to know (1-4).

I like Dynamic Trading by Robert Miner.
Advanced GET for software and Tradeguider for VSA.
But other may differ.
Expensive--yes to most--but show me a decient business that wont consist of considerable investment in TIME and MONEY.

Its no ego or arrogence its just too hard to wrap up in a paragraph or 2

Thats how some of us can come across,but it can become tedious,Im sure you understand.
 
Trade_It said:
Magdoran and others

OBV

just shows on that day weather the volume for that day was selling or buying all i want to see is that its buying volume. I dont veiw it as a magic entry signal

on real time is does not even lag it moves all day with the price bar or candel

Joseph,
OBV is not the most accurate way of determining what volume is doing. Look at its construction and ask: what is it made up of? In realtime is it more important than momentum?
 
OBV

just shows on that day weather the volume for that day was selling or buying all i want to see is that its buying volume. I dont veiw it as a magic entry signal

Snake

I am not saying its the best, all I am is thats what it does.

Momentum is also great, I dont use it though.

All I know obv works for me and works well in seeing the way the markets moving.

So that's all that matters.
 
tech/a said:
Joseph.

Ive got to agree with Moggi here.
From what I see Moggi uses a combination of Elliot and Gann.
both time and price cycles along with price points and price projections both up and down.

I wont comment on Gann---BUT

If your going to MAXIMISE profits in the business you need to know.

(1) Where Price is at relative to that which your trading right now
(a) A corrective move?
(b) A consolidation ?
(c) A trend or impulsive move?

(2) Where Price is GOING
(3) When will it get there.
(4) When will price show me my analysis is correct---our incorrect.
This is the one most get have problem getting their head around as it appears to the un trained that the goal posts get moved during a trade!!

While it may appear Moggi is being egotistical (Its nice that its someone else and not me for a change),he's not.
He can and so can quite a few others I know---and I'm getting better at it.

Answer ALL of the above in the majority of charts, in his trading.

Just sit back and think for a minute.

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO YOUR TRADING if you could do all of the above?? (1-4).

Radge put it best I feel,analysis is a continual
"Prove,Disprove,Prove,Disprove."

There is no point in even attempting to explain how he trades to the masses,or anyone who uses Elliot,VSA or for that matter GANN.
It takes years to master,even to gain a competency,Ive been at it spasmotically for 12 and a have a basic understanding.Even this is enough to improve my short term trading Dramatically.

Demonstrations will be seen as bewildering (No GANN traders I havent turned,not to GANN).to those with little or no understanding.

Its WELL worth the effort and if at anytime you consider trading as opposed to Investing--- serious amounts in the market (Say that which you would invest on a house) you NEED to know (1-4).

I like Dynamic Trading by Robert Miner.
Advanced GET for software and Tradeguider for VSA.
But other may differ.
Expensive--yes to most--but show me a decient business that wont consist of considerable investment in TIME and MONEY.

Its no ego or arrogence its just too hard to wrap up in a paragraph or 2

Thats how some of us can come across,but it can become tedious,Im sure you understand.

Tech/A

Thank you very much for the post you and Magdoran have given me a reply with merit and meaning which i value very much.

I am on a never ending quest to improve my trading and learn to be at one with the market i am still in a major battle with myself right now and i am trying to keep it simple.

What i have read from Magoran and you last reply have opened my eyes to a new frontier of understanding and vision to the market.

Again thanks and I am looking at all your posts and now also reading Yogis as well.

For now I will stick to what is working and making money in this current market situation but my new education has begun.

Thanks again guys.

Regards
Joseph
 
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