Tradeguider FAQ

[Trembling Hand]

Yeh AB is great because you can actually isolate individual VSA signals (or multiple successive VSA siganls) and rigorously backtest them. Unfortunately my backtesting showed VSA to be pretty random and unprofitable. My feeling is that it is ok as a confirmation tool but not a trading method in itself.

Like any search for the holly grail it will not be found in back testing retail accessible ideas.

The holy grail is discretion.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Like any search for the holly grail it will not be found in back testing retail accessible ideas.

The holy grail is discretion.

Yeh I agree. Gut feel trading for the win.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Yeh I agree. Gut feel trading for the win.

Yeah cept I don't like your definition of "gut feel".

 

[fiftyeight]

Not looking for the holy grail. Well I am actually, any suggestions?

Will not be using the VSA signals as buy and sell signals rather hopefully just another piece of information. (Not really sure to be honest, as I said I am just trying to figure out what I want to focus on initially)

Tech's opinion makes sense to me, something reverse engineered probably wont be as effective? And as a beginner false or missing signals wont help me (As I said yesterday GB)

Additionally, I am not sure I will be able to use all the features if any AB has just yet. I have no idea on isolating signals to back test.

So for someone in my situation looking for the best educational tool possible would you still recommend AB. (Remember I do not know any traders so will be harassing you guys for info )

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Not looking for the holy grail. Well I am actually, any suggestions?

Will not be using the VSA signals as buy and sell signals rather hopefully just another piece of information. (Not really sure to be honest, as I said I am just trying to figure out what I want to focus on initially)

Tech's opinion makes sense to me, something reverse engineered probably wont be as effective? And as a beginner false or missing signals wont help me (As I said yesterday GB)

Additionally, I am not sure I will be able to use all the features if any AB has just yet. I have no idea on isolating signals to back test.

So for someone in my situation looking for the best educational tool possible would you still recommend AB. (Remember I do not know any traders so will be harassing you guys for info )

Drop the concept of the AB script being "reverse engineered" - it's incorrect. It makes it sound like the AB script is a cheap copy of TG. In truth, the AB script would be adapted directly from Wykoff's books. Same as the author's of Trader Guider did. They are equal except in price. AB has the advantage of being able to backtest...and when you do you'll see that VSA offers very little or no advantage.

 

[tech/a]

Yeh AB is great because you can actually isolate individual VSA signals (or multiple successive VSA siganls) and rigorously backtest them. Unfortunately my backtesting showed VSA to be pretty random and unprofitable. My feeling is that it is ok as a confirmation tool but not a trading method in itself.

This shows your lack of understanding of VSA and the in ability to apply it practically to trading.
VSA is a book written on the chart. If you have a book which has all its chapters and all its pages and you can actually understand what it is that the book is written about---then you will be in the position to trade using VSA.

Amibroker is an excellent software. Its VSA add on is a cheap copy. Missing quite a few pages.
Lacking in content and depth of story---let alone the other tools in the tradeguider software..

Drop the concept of the AB script being "reverse engineered" - it's incorrect. It makes it sound like the AB script is a cheap copy of TG.

Thats because it is.

In truth, the AB script would be adapted directly from Wykoff's books. Same as the author's of Trader Guider did.

Completely wrong.
Tom Williams is according to Tradeguider "The father of VSA" It is HIS ideas and principals that are used as the basis of THEIR method. Wykoff is different again.

They are equal except in price. AB has the advantage of being able to backtest...and when you do you'll see that VSA offers very little or no advantage.

They are SIMILAR in idea ONLY.

Like many forms of analysis which are part of an on going story which allows the experienced trader to become expert in Discretionary trading .Back testing a singular component of any trading method is in itself quite useless. An experienced trader would recognize the in accuracy in your statement.

Whether the analysis be
VSA
ELLIOTT
P&F
MARKET PROFIT
CANDLESTICKS
DOM
BAR CHART ANALYSIS.
PATTERN RECOGNITION

You and those like you fall far short due to the inability to APPLY analysis profitably--write the story.

Below is the Tradeguider chart with the lowest bars commentary. I had to take 2 shots as it is too long to fit in one chart.
You'll notice that not only is it more explanatory but it has far better structure in the explanation and far better ENGLISH. The other version reads like a ----well you can see what I mean.





I don't care what people use but an addon is an add---on.
If Im investing my own hard earned and lots of it I'm not going to quibble over a few $s

I Own a Civil Construction company

I can buy Shovels for $10 bucks
Both dig holes
But prefer $150,000 Excavators.
I could be wrong??

 

[Gringotts Bank]

TG looks as though it's written in a more pleasing style, but for me it's not worth the extra money because I have done the backtesting and VSA just doesn't stack up as a method in itself.

Each of the red and green arrows on the VSA chart (yours or mine) is a bullish or bearish signal. You'd go bonkers following such an approach. Every second day it would be like yes? no? in? out? what? when? huh?? stop? go? Have a look how many signals there are!!

I have to assume you have a fluid and changeable approach to trading, in which VSA is just one component. If that's the case, great. But by their very nature, fluid changeable approaches cannot be taught. This is why Pavillion can't do anything by himself but instead relies on you every step of the way.... even after this long!! One day he might make a trade without you holding his hand!

Forums are a dangerous place??

 

[pavilion103]

Haha.

Yep, after a couple of years of learning I just know everything now. I'm ready to mentor all you guys. Get a grip. Tech has taught me to be profitable and seeking verification on some charts just makes me intelligent using the resources at hand.

Thank goodness I came across people like Tech on this forum. Too bad I have to sift through the crap of others like in this thread.

Quite apparent by the respect someone like Tech gets and why people would listen to him over you. Your petulance in the thread about our portfolio takes the cake for me. Everyone posting about how they just wanted you to shut up and get out.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I have no problem with tech's approach. He makes money - good on him. I'm just saying what he does can't be taught. What he has given you is confidence in a system that has no real basis. Confidence is good. Confidence makes money. But a discerning trader will always backtest ideas to see if it is 1) the confidence or 2) the method that is making the money. When a method is not profitable in itself, then losing your confidence means you start losing on trades.

Big problems arise when beginners log in here and think "oh great I'll just learn patterns and VSA and I'll be profitable".. It won't work.

 

[tech/a]

TG looks as though it's written in a more pleasing style, but for me it's not worth the extra money because I have done the backtesting and VSA just doesn't stack up as a method in itself.

Each of the red and green arrows on the VSA chart (yours or mine) is a bullish or bearish signal. You'd go bonkers following such an approach. Every second day it would be like yes? no? in? out? what? when? huh?? stop? go? Have a look how many signals there are!!

GB seriously

Which part of my post above didn't you understand??

This bit??

This shows your lack of understanding of VSA and the in ability to apply it practically to trading.
VSA is a book written on the chart. If you have a book which has all its chapters and all its pages and you can actually understand what it is that the book is written about---then you will be in the position to trade using VSA.

Or was it this bit??

Like many forms of analysis which are part of an on going story which allows the experienced trader to become expert in Discretionary trading .Back testing a singular component of any trading method is in itself quite useless. An experienced trader would recognize the in accuracy in your statement.

Whether the analysis be
VSA
ELLIOTT
P&F
MARKET PROFIT
CANDLESTICKS
DOM
BAR CHART ANALYSIS.
PATTERN RECOGNITION

You and those like you fall far short due to the inability to APPLY analysis profitably--write the story.

I have to assume you have a fluid and changeable approach to trading, in which VSA is just one component. If that's the case, great. But by their very nature, fluid changeable approaches cannot be taught.

Strange I wasn't born a trader. Yet Id say I'm competent in most Fluid forms of analysis.

This is why Pavillion can't do anything by himself but instead relies on you every step of the way.... even after this long!! One day he might make a trade without you holding his hand!

Forums are a dangerous place??

Wrong.

 

[CanOz]

Thanks for the explanation tech, I can see your point. I will agree that TG is a good learning tool and I recall now too that it was based on his book.

It is a descretionary trading method and that's why it may not back test too well. That's doesn't mean of course that it can't be profitable, it's up to the application as you say.

I am slightly biased against TG, still with. Sour taste in my mouth from the service I received.

Good luck fifty, hope it works well for you.


CanOz

 

[Gringotts Bank]

tech on that chart of MYR you posted, there are 10 (TEN) green buy arrows given as the stock plummets from 3.20 to 2.20.

Which arrows do you take heed of, and which do you not?

 

[CanOz]

I have no problem with tech's approach. He makes money - good on him. I'm just saying what he does can't be taught. What he has given you is confidence in a system that has no real basis. Confidence is good. Confidence makes money. But a discerning trader will always backtest ideas to see if it is 1) the confidence or 2) the method that is making the money. When a method is not profitable in itself, then losing your confidence means you start losing on trades.

Big problems arise when beginners log in here and think "oh great I'll just learn patterns and VSA and I'll be profitable".. It won't work.

GB, I don't think anyone would ever get that impression from reading tech or Pavs posts. Pretty clear that any analysis needs lots of practice and then good disciplined application. Nick Radges power setups is very similar to techs and Pavs system, and he has over a year of stats on his site that prove that this method works if applied in a disciplined manner over and over. Yet, it cannot be back tested becaus it is descretionary.

I hope this doesn't denigrate into a slinging match because I'll just delete the posts...so you guys keep the debate civil so new people can learn....from a profitable trader.

CanOz

 

[Boggo]

tech on that chart of MYR you posted, there are 10 (TEN) green buy arrows given as the stock plummets from 3.20 to 2.20.

Which arrows do you take heed of, and which do you not?

I have a very basic understanding of VSA, I have read the Tradeguider Primer book and from what I can tell you will never see a "BUY" or "SELL" indication or arrow in TG (or any good system for that matter imo).
Most symbols in most systems can have varying values depending on the situation at the time, in the case of TG they can mean a heads up of changes in supply or demand, or a potential correction as a result of the latter.

This is an amateur mistake to see any highlighting of a bar as a buy or sell, my understanding of TG and my own system indications and my EW software alerts are that they "highlight" points of interest where you have to apply your knowledge to the surrounds of the point of interest.

The "your knowledge" bit seems to be the weak link when people discuss any method.

You could of course discard the knowledge bit and just put your money on Green or Red !!!

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I have a very basic understanding of VSA, I have read the Tradeguider Primer book and from what I can tell you will never see a "BUY" or "SELL" indication or arrow in TG (or any good system for that matter imo).

This is an amateur mistake to see any highlighting of a bar as a buy or sell, my understanding of TG and my own system indications and my EW software alerts are that they "highlight" points of interest where you have to apply your knowledge to the point of interest.

The "your knowledge" bit seems to be the weak link when people discuss any method.

You could of course discard the knowledge bit and just put your money on Green or Red !!!

OK that's fine. But if each of the ten successive wrong signals simply require you to pay attention and "apply your knowledge" at that point, then they have as much predictive power as a moving average (ie. none). Would you agree? Actually, I think a simple MA would be better in many ways.

 

[Boggo]

OK that's fine. But if each of the ten successive wrong signals simply require you to pay attention and "apply your knowledge" at that point, then they have as much predictive power as a moving average. Would you agree?

Working on my approach to my own system and that of the EW system I use the price action/behaviour on the next bar following the "heads up" bar is the bar that determines your actions in relation to the generated symbol.

Look at each of those symbols you refer to again and bear in mind that the bar following the symbol is where you would be buying or standing back.
Most, if not all of them would have been cancelled by the resumption of the downward trend on the next bar.

Pav or tech/a can elaborate my views with a VSA application approach.

 

[CanOz]

Working on my approach to my own system and that of the EW system I use the price action/behaviour on the next bar following the "heads up" bar is the bar that determines your actions in relation to the generated symbol.

Look at each of those symbols you refer to again and bear in mind that the bar following the symbol is where you would be buying or standing back.
Most, if not all of them would have been cancelled by the resumption of the downward trend on the next bar.

Pav or tech/a can elaborate my views with a VSA application approach.

Boggo great explanation...that's exactly what the signals imply and I even recall Gavin saying on a webinar that the signals should not be taken in every case and that it only indicated an area where more descretion was needed to watch for a trade.

GB, Tradeguider is not a trading system...

CanOz

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Working on my approach to my own system and that of the EW system I use the price action/behaviour on the next bar following the "heads up" bar is the bar that determines your actions in relation to the generated symbol.

Look at each of those symbols you refer to again and bear in mind that the bar following the symbol is where you would be buying or standing back.
Most, if not all of them would have been cancelled by the resumption of the downward trend on the next bar.

Pav or tech/a can elaborate my views with a VSA application approach.

So a buy signal is when you get a signal the day before and it follows through. I could backtest that quite easily in AB you know?

Anyone want to see the equity curve?

 

[CanOz]

So a buy signal is when you get a signal the day before and it follows through. I could backtest that quite easily in AB you know?

Anyone want to see the equity curve?

How are you going to back test the discretion GB?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

GB, Tradeguider is not a trading system...

CanOz

Duh I know that! A signal on TG is like an MACD or stochastic cross, and with as much predictive power. TG has no edge beyond what AB can offer, which is why I advised fifty not to waste his money. Do you have a problem with that?