Tony Abbott for PM

[Julia]

IMO The problem with the greens is, they have great ideas, that aren't practical. The end result is we all end up like Tasmania a welfare state.
The problem with that is, when we are all on welfare, who pays the bill.

It seems a bit like the magic roundabout party, where everyone lives in a beautifull world. But who pays for it, who produces anything, when you shut everything down.

If we want to live that, ideal at one with nature, life on earth. We probably have to cull 60% of the population, to make it viable.

The Labor Party runs a pretty close second to the Greens in terms of their often desirable but unreasonably expensive plans. For me, this is one of the most important reasons to see the Coalition running the country. I believe they are much more fiscally responsible and competent.

How can you cal this grabbing at straws?

I always take actions over words, and Abbott is showing himself to be a populist who's unable tp support even basic changes to limit the leakage of tax revenue.

Oh, the irony! Your ultimate populist is Rudd, fergawdsake! Have a look at the photo Calliope posted of him doing the biblical-like laying on of hands on the heads of quasi hysterical children.

Sydboy, your incessant rubbishing of everything to do with the Opposition, with Mr Abbott in particular, is starting to be very irritating.

You can't honestly say that Abbotts behaviour over this issue has impressed you?

If someone has decided Mr Abbott is the least worst alternative, or that his stand on this issue is justified, why should you insult that person by being so incredulous? It's pretty rude.

Why is it necessary to have to be able to quote policies of particular parties as reasons for your support of them ?

For a start surely we don't actually believe what the pollies say before an election ? Haven't we all been around long enough to remember the "core and non core promises" "Fistful of dollars" "Reds under the beds" and a myriad other pre poll fairy tales that turn into fairy dust 24 hours after the results ?

I think Calliope represents a sizable group of voters who simply decide who they like or hate and vote accordingly. No need to get more complex than that is there ?

+2.

 

[Calliope]

Oh, the irony! Your ultimate populist is Rudd, fergawdsake! Have a look at the photo Calliope posted of him doing the biblical-like laying on of hands on the heads of quasi hysterical children.
Sydboy, your incessant rubbishing of everything to do with the Opposition, with Mr Abbott in particular, is starting to be very irritating.

I can't imagine how anyone can be so dense that they think Rudd's Manus Gulag solution is better than the protection of our borders from the influx of illegal boats, so that they never land on our soil. That's exactly what our armed forces are employed to do... not to act as an escort services or go looking for "overdue" boats.

Rudd's plan will implant Middle Eastern terrorism in New Guinea. Besides they wouldn't fit in, and on Australian resettlement welfare they would be far better off than the great majority of the locals. They could even employ them as servants.

 

[Logique]

...If we want to live that, ideal at one with nature, life on earth. We probably have to cull 60% of the population, to make it viable.

Be in no doubt SP, the Greens are disciples of the Reverend (Thomas) Robert Malthus, and they do intend the Tasmanian model for the rest of us.

The Greens are the comfortable upper middle class, or their children, they'll never have to face the economic consequences of their policies.

Agree with Greens policies, or....no handouts for you!

 

[noco]

I can't imagine how anyone can be so dense that they think Rudd Manus Gulag solution is better than the protection of our borders from the influx of illegal boats, so that they never land on our soil. That's exactly what our armed forces are employed to do... not to act as an escort services or go looking for "overdue" boats.

Rudd's plan will implant Middle Eastern terrorism in New Guinea. Besides they wouldn't fit in, and on Australian resettlement welfare they would be far better off than the great majority of the locals. They could even employ them as servants.

Rudd is using the navy to act as escort services and go looking for overdue boats to avoid further disasters at sea. Rudd does not want more blood on his hands before the election.

I watched AM Agenda and noted Ed Kuseck (the self confessed Muslim), you know the one who took the oath of office with his hand on the Kuran in front of the Governor General, ranting on blaming Tony Abbott for the continued influx of boat people since Rudd's announced his defective policy on the PNG solution.

The answers I would like from Rudd are :-

a) Where will he send the women and children after arrival on Christmas Island as he can't send them to Manus?
b) How many and under what catagory will PNG accept for resettlement.
c) How long will it take the Australian Government to build a new settlement along side the Jackson international airport and how will the Nationals react to their squatters huts being bulldozed to make way for this redevelopement?
d) Where will the PNG Government house these boat people in the meantime?
e) How long will the Australian Government provide support for these illegal immigrants while in PNG?
f) What sort of protection will the Australian Government give to these illegals if they want to travel into Port Moresby City knowing from experience how the PNG Nationals will react to these foreigners?
g) What is going to be the overall cost of this exercise?
h) How will the foreign aid being given to PNG from Australia for infrastructure, new hospitals and schools be given? In the past these conditions were always met with design and materials purchsed fron Australia and from my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, is the PNG Governement will decide where the $500,000,000 is spent and where they will source the material.
f) What happens now on Nauru since these illegals destroyed $60,000,000 worth of buildings and how will these arsonist be treated? Will they be given a 10 year jail sentance or will this weak Rudd Government just give them a slap on the wrist?

I am sure other ASF members would ask the same questions, and perhaps more, but if you want some answers from this inept stupid Labor Governemnt, don't hold your breath.

 

[sails]

Another boat with 100 on board. I think this now makes up 600 arrivals since the announcement. Now where will Rudd put future arrivals?

HMAS Huon intercepted the vessel north of Ashmore Islands on Tuesday night.
Initial reporting suggests there are 100 people on board, Home Affairs Minister Jason Clare said in a statement on Thursday.

Two passengers requiring medical treatment and seven accompanying family members are being transferred to Darwin. The others are being transferred to Christmas Island.
They will be subject to the government's hardline new Papua New Guinea policy, so they will not be resettled in Australia even if found to be genuine refugees.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/07/25/15/10/100-asylum-seekers-on-latest-boat

 

[sptrawler]

At least with Abbotts, tow back policy, the asylum seekers will have to find the fare for the next trip.

That is off course, unless the people smugglers give them a refund, or they have travel insurance.
They may be covered if they paid the smugglers with Platinum or gold visa, I think travel insurance is included.

Then again if they get towed back two or three times, the card will probably be maxed out.

 

[sptrawler]

What I can't understand is if the asylum seekers can find the money to pay the people smuglers. Why don't they apply for a tourist visa from their place of origin and fly here. Sorry drifting, probably wrong thread.

 

[noco]

Rudd is using the navy to act as escort services and go looking for overdue boats to avoid further disasters at sea. Rudd does not want more blood on his hands before the election.

I watched AM Agenda and noted Ed Kuseck (the self confessed Muslim), you know the one who took the oath of office with his hand on the Kuran in front of the Governor General, ranting on blaming Tony Abbott for the continued influx of boat people since Rudd's announced his defective policy on the PNG solution.

The answers I would like from Rudd are :-

a) Where will he send the women and children after arrival on Christmas Island as he can't send them to Manus?
b) How many and under what catagory will PNG accept for resettlement.
c) How long will it take the Australian Government to build a new settlement along side the Jackson international airport and how will the Nationals react to their squatters huts being bulldozed to make way for this redevelopement?
d) Where will the PNG Government house these boat people in the meantime?
e) How long will the Australian Government provide support for these illegal immigrants while in PNG?
f) What sort of protection will the Australian Government give to these illegals if they want to travel into Port Moresby City knowing from experience how the PNG Nationals will react to these foreigners?
g) What is going to be the overall cost of this exercise?
h) How will the foreign aid being given to PNG from Australia for infrastructure, new hospitals and schools be given? In the past these conditions were always met with design and materials purchsed fron Australia and from my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, is the PNG Governement will decide where the $500,000,000 is spent and where they will source the material.
f) What happens now on Nauru since these illegals destroyed $60,000,000 worth of buildings and how will these arsonist be treated? Will they be given a 10 year jail sentance or will this weak Rudd Government just give them a slap on the wrist?

I am sure other ASF members would ask the same questions, and perhaps more, but if you want some answers from this inept stupid Labor Governemnt, don't hold your breath.

I must confess I also drifted from this thread but it was in reply to Calliope.

 

[Zedd]

Why is it necessary to have to be able to quote policies of particular parties as reasons for your support of them ?

For a start surely we don't actually believe what the pollies say before an election ?

I agree you need to try and filter what is being said but for all the talk of not trusting politicians, and failed promises etc. etc. the fact is that the majority of policies taken into an election are implemented when they can get them through both houses.

For memory the key policies from Kevin 07 were:
- NBN
- Carbon Price
- Scrap work choices
- Scrap Howard's asylum policies
- Education reform
- Internet filter
- Wind down military involvement in Iraq & Afganistan
- Have 2020 talk
- Increased international involvement

8 years on, regardless of whether you agree with the policies, or how well they've worked since, you can't say they haven't had a good shot at getting these policies through.

If you can't trust what politicians say, then view them through their actions. And, forgetting all the bull**** scandals and sound bites, their real actions that affect us as a nation are their policies. So what is Abbott offering again?

 

[sptrawler]

- NBN
- Carbon Price
- Scrap work choices
- Scrap Howard's asylum policies
- Education reform
- Internet filter
- Wind down military involvement in Iraq & Afganistan
- Have 2020 talk
- Increased international involvement

So what is Abbott offering again?

So what is Abbott offering>

-Get rid of Carbon Tax, Kev's already backflipped and done it for him.

-Wind back Fair Work Australia, Labor are also going to review it, as productivity is at long term lows.

-Bring back Howards aslum policies, Kev and Labor have backflipped and reinstated 80% of what it removed.

-Education reform, will be done whoever is in government.The union driven debacle we call an education system, has fallen so far in educational outcomes, it is a national crisis. Who would commit to any Labor driven action plan.

-Invest more national funding into the viability of developing agricultural industries in the North of the country. Kev and the goon show have decimated our northern Australia cattle industry.

- Investigate the irrigation and water catchment in the high rainfall areas.

-Try to undo the financial mess left as a result of illconcieved and poorly implemented Labor policies.

-Wind back the NBN to a more managable fibre to the node model, with fibre to the premise only to businesses, commercial properties and new houses and new housing estates.

-Implement an asylum seeker policy that deters people from attempting the the journey from Indonesia. Which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of Indonesia as a staging post.

-Hold a Royal Commission into unions and possible union corruption.

And he hasn't even started.
Kevs smoke and mirrors rhetoric, may impress the impressionable, but like all illusions it fades fast.

 

[sails]

So what is Abbott offering>

-Get rid of Carbon Tax, Kev's already backflipped and done it for him...

Except Kevin is switching to an ETS which could go even higher than our current carbon tax overtime. Apparently the EU sest the price...

If Abbott can abolish the carbon tax then we don't get the ETS either. Kev's deal is only a change of banner - he is not abolishing carbon pricing.

Smoke and mirrors, IMO.

 

[sptrawler]

Except Kevin is switching to an ETS which could go even higher than our current carbon tax overtime. Apparently the EU sest the price...

If Abbott can abolish the carbon tax then we don't get the ETS either. Kev's deal is only a change of banner - he is not abolishing carbon pricing.

Smoke and mirrors, IMO.

Except Europes carbon tax price has collapsed along with their economies, the carbon tax is a burden on their industries, same as ours.
Eventually a global carbon mitigation scheme will have to be developed. We should wait untill a sensible hollistic approach is adopted.
Unfortunately we seem to suffer from an inferiority complex and want to lead the World, when the World think we are a small pimple on the bottom of the world.
Labor and the Greens were unfortunately the head of the pimple.

 

[sydboy007]

So what is Abbott offering>

-Get rid of Carbon Tax, Kev's already backflipped and done it for him.

-Wind back Fair Work Australia, Labor are also going to review it, as productivity is at long term lows.

-Bring back Howards aslum policies, Kev and Labor have backflipped and reinstated 80% of what it removed.

-Education reform, will be done whoever is in government.The union driven debacle we call an education system, has fallen so far in educational outcomes, it is a national crisis. Who would commit to any Labor driven action plan.

-Invest more national funding into the viability of developing agricultural industries in the North of the country. Kev and the goon show have decimated our northern Australia cattle industry.

- Investigate the irrigation and water catchment in the high rainfall areas.

-Try to undo the financial mess left as a result of illconcieved and poorly implemented Labor policies.

-Wind back the NBN to a more managable fibre to the node model, with fibre to the premise only to businesses, commercial properties and new houses and new housing estates.

-Implement an asylum seeker policy that deters people from attempting the the journey from Indonesia. Which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of Indonesia as a staging post.

-Hold a Royal Commission into unions and possible union corruption.

And he hasn't even started.
Kevs smoke and mirrors rhetoric, may impress the impressionable, but like all illusions it fades fast.

Do you think Abbott will hold a royal commission into corruption in the business sector? Arilines caught gaming the air freight industry, CBA caught ignoring a financial planner ripping off clients. Have to wonder what else has been going on eh.

Can you show me the stats that prove productivity is "at long term lows" because my understanding is it was during work choices we had a large drop in productivity to about the lowest in a decade. Interesting to note that work place deaths increased under work choices, but are down 33% since Labor has been in office.

 

[sydboy007]

The Labor Party runs a pretty close second to the Greens in terms of their often desirable but unreasonably expensive plans. For me, this is one of the most important reasons to see the Coalition running the country. I believe they are much more fiscally responsible and competent.


Oh, the irony! Your ultimate populist is Rudd, fergawdsake! Have a look at the photo Calliope posted of him doing the biblical-like laying on of hands on the heads of quasi hysterical children.

Sydboy, your incessant rubbishing of everything to do with the Opposition, with Mr Abbott in particular, is starting to be very irritating.


If someone has decided Mr Abbott is the least worst alternative, or that his stand on this issue is justified, why should you insult that person by being so incredulous? It's pretty rude.


+2.

So Calliope calling me a greenie isn't rude? Being called delusional isn't rude? All I do is question the why of what people say.

In religion I can accept people can't quite explain a reason for their belief - you have it or you don't. But when people say X is better than Y, but then can't give a logical reason for their belief, I just wonder why??

So my criticism of the Coalition and Abbott is irritating, yet all the derogatory stuff said about Gillard and Rudd is perfectly OK?

At least I attack the Coalition over policy and things they've said or done. I've yet to criticise Abbott for the way he dressed or talks like some in this forum did for Gillard.

 

[Calliope]

So Calliope calling me a greenie isn't rude? Being called delusional isn't rude? All I do is question the why of what people say.

To use your rude camp words... you will just have to "suck it up".

In religion I can accept people can't quite explain a reason for their belief - you have it or you don't. But when people say X is better than Y, but then can't give a logical reason for their belief, I just wonder why??

Maybe because it's none of your business. SP gave you logical and valid reasons but you still want to argue the toss. I wonder why?

 

[sptrawler]

Do you think Abbott will hold a royal commission into corruption in the business sector? Arilines caught gaming the air freight industry, CBA caught ignoring a financial planner ripping off clients. Have to wonder what else has been going on eh.

Can you show me the stats that prove productivity is "at long term lows" because my understanding is it was during work choices we had a large drop in productivity to about the lowest in a decade. Interesting to note that work place deaths increased under work choices, but are down 33% since Labor has been in office.

The government doesn't have to have a royal commission into corruption in business, they fall under common law, business law commercial law, asic. The unions don't.

As for showing you stats on productivity being low, no haven't got any at hand but Rudd has talked about it, the business council have talked about it, the RBA have talked about it, you must have missed it.
Yes I did notice that graph you posted, regarding the drop in workplace deaths and I thought it was a great achievement by the government. However lets not overstate work choices involvement in deaths, it was only enacted in 2005 and overturned in 2007. It would be hard to say workplaces and work practices changed that quickly and had that much effect.
It looks like desperate effort to find a link.
It would be a bit like looking at suicide rates since Labor have taken office, then saying they were responsible for the increase or decrease.
Just poor taste politics, that has no relevance.

 

[Zedd]

-Get rid of Carbon Tax, Kev's already backflipped and done it for him.

Not quite. Rudd brought forward the existing planned transition. Abbott is still advocating carbon emission curbing policies, just not market driven ones.

-Wind back Fair Work Australia, Labor are also going to review it, as productivity is at long term lows.

Productivity has been declining for years is my understanding and was a key driver for Work Choices in the first place. I'm not aware of an actual policy from Abbott on workplace relations besides Work Choices being dead.

-Bring back Howards aslum policies, Kev and Labor have backflipped and reinstated 80% of what it removed.

Fair call.

-Education reform, will be done whoever is in government.The union driven debacle we call an education system, has fallen so far in educational outcomes, it is a national crisis. Who would commit to any Labor driven action plan.

Haven't heard this from the Coalition as yet. The national syllabus reforms from the current government were a step in the right direction. Pity the surplus money wasn't well spent in this sector, although I know for a fact some of the money was very well spent and appreciated in some Cairns high schools.

-Invest more national funding into the viability of developing agricultural industries in the North of the country. Kev and the goon show have decimated our northern Australia cattle industry.

- Investigate the irrigation and water catchment in the high rainfall areas.

Certainly worth a look.

-Try to undo the financial mess left as a result of illconcieved and poorly implemented Labor policies.

Specifically what? With the world's most generous maternity scheme funded by big business tax slogs? Some efficiencies in the public sector would be appreciated though, and yes, efficiently executed and implemented policies would be nice for a change.

-Wind back the NBN to a more managable fibre to the node model, with fibre to the premise only to businesses, commercial properties and new houses and new housing estates.

Took them a while to come up with this compromise, last election it was simply going to be scrapped. Not sure how the numbers stack up but their alternative is certainly better than nothing, and will achieve roughly the same outcome, although the costs deferred will be incurred in future years as we do eventually replace the connections from node to premise.

-Implement an asylum seeker policy that deters people from attempting the the journey from Indonesia. Which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of Indonesia as a staging post.

Sounds wonderful. How again? Is he planning on turning back the planes too?

-Hold a Royal Commission into unions and possible union corruption.

May as well. At the same time proper scrutiny of political fundraising and corruption would be appreciated also.

 

[Zedd]

Except Europes carbon tax price has collapsed along with their economies, the carbon tax is a burden on their industries, same as ours.
Eventually a global carbon mitigation scheme will have to be developed. We should wait untill a sensible hollistic approach is adopted.
Unfortunately we seem to suffer from an inferiority complex and want to lead the World, when the World think we are a small pimple on the bottom of the world.
Labor and the Greens were unfortunately the head of the pimple.

Blaming the European crisis on their carbon price is laying it on a bit thick, or have I misinterpreted your implication? Taken the other way, which I'm assuming was unintentional, you're correct, as industrial output slowed, the demand for emissions decreased and so did the price, lessening the economic impact. Gotta love market philosophies.

Linking it to Europe may prove as disastrous as some countries adopting the Euro prior to a full fiscal union insight and so am personally against. If Europe ramps up economically, while we're on the way down, and we still don't have a global agreement then we're in trouble...

Our "inferiority complex" , IMO, has to do with us still having the highest emissions per capita in the world. If we continue to increase our emissions per capita, rather than mitigate them, then if a global (ie. China + US) scheme is implemented the economic pain will be far worse due to the speed at which we'll have to adapt. Surely a slow adaptation starting now is the way to go, especially when we're in, relatively speaking, good economic health.

Abbott has absolutely no credibility on this subject what-so-ever.

 

[sails]

...Our "inferiority complex" , IMO, has to do with us still having the highest emissions per capita in the world. If we continue to increase our emissions per capita, rather than mitigate them, then if a global (ie. China + US) scheme is implemented the economic pain will be far worse due to the speed at which we'll have to adapt. Surely a slow adaptation starting now is the way to go, especially when we're in, relatively speaking, good economic health...

Per capita is a rather useless measure when we only contribute around a very tiny 1% to global co2 emissions and the goal is to reduce emissions globally, is it not?

Even if we reduce our global 1% to 0.95% at great cost to our economy and to people's living standards, we only make a spit in the ocean difference to the global total.

No matter how much per capita our contribution globally is tiny. China and the US make up about half global emissions and China's per capita is very low. If the goal to reduce emissions globally then surely we need to look at how much we contribute globally.

It seems to me that per capita is used for political propaganda and an excuse for lifting hard earned money from people than for anthing useful!

IMO, Abbott has a better handle on this than the money grabbing, lies and stuff-ups we have seen in the last three years.

 

[sydboy007]

Per capita is a rather useless measure when we only contribute around a very tiny 1% to global co2 emissions and the goal is to reduce emissions globally, is it not?

Even if we reduce our global 1% to 0.95% at great cost to our economy and to people's living standards, we only make a spit in the ocean difference to the global total.

No matter how much per capita our contribution globally is tiny. China and the US make up about half global emissions and China's per capita is very low. If the goal to reduce emissions globally then surely we need to look at how much we contribute globally.

It seems to me that per capita is used for political propaganda and an excuse for lifting hard earned money from people than for anthing useful!

IMO, Abbott has a better handle on this than the money grabbing, lies and stuff-ups we have seen in the last three years.

So we tell China they're REALLY REALLY bad for their REALLY REALLY high level of CO2 equivalent emissions, but then each person in Australia is generating roughly 3.3 times as they do in China. Why are we such profligate energy consumers? Our industries are relatively inefficient in terms of energy consumption, especially the Aluminium sector which is as the bottom of the efficiency curve. We produce twice as much carbon as the Germans, even 2.5 times as much as Italy. Our household sector has been quite inefficient too, though new building codes have started to improve on this.

it seems your argument is that until China stops growing emissions and reducing them, that we shouldn't do anything. How about we start to look at things from a per capita view point so that everyone gets treated equally. Considering the huge move to renewables and Nucelar that China is making, I dare say in 10-15 years time they will team up with the USA (which due to their glut of natural gas will have a much lower CO2 equivalent intensity as well) and basically force the rest of the world down a path that benefits them over those economies that are still reliant on high levels of carbon in their economies. I don't want Australia to be one of them.