Today's "anti-terrorist" raids

It's Snake Pliskin · 15 November 2005

You've used lots of big words. Well done.

Don't be so immature.

You make an important point. The question is under what jurisdiction does the US military hold an Australian citizen capured in Afganistan in a facility in Guatemela

Guatemala?
That would be Guantanamo Cuba.

Julia · 15 November 2005

Snake Pliskin said:
Julia,

What's your take on all of this?

Snake,

To be perfectly honest, unlike most posters on this sensitive subject, I actually feel ambivalent and confused.

I'm uncomfortable and concerned about the depth of power the government has at present and as a consequence its capacity to enact whatever laws they want regardless of the views of the electorate. My fundamental view of life is that the best outcomes are achieved by opinion and counter opinion, discussion, and finally a concensus of those views.

With regard to terrorism, I have no doubts of the reality of a threat to Australia and feel chilled at accounts of actual conversations amongst those recently arrested. Fanaticism in anything is dangerous, and I am glad to know these alleged terrorists have had their (alleged) plans interrupted.
In situations like this I have confidence in the judicial system in Australia.

Can't say the same for the American recent examples. I'm not buying into the whole David Hicks thing, he seems to have been remarkably foolish to say the least, but he should not have been kept in his present conditions for so long without charge.

Julia

doctorj · 15 November 2005

Snake Pliskin said:
Guatemala?
That would be Guantanamo Cuba.

My bad. See the time I made the post and you might understand why I made that freudian slip.

I would be interested in your thoughts if you'd like to address my points.

It's Snake Pliskin · 15 November 2005

doctorj said:
....To be critical of our government is to participate in the political process. It's about being informed and enjoying the debate that goes hand in hand with this. If the opinions I form are in opposition to the government, then so be it. As an Australian Citizen that votes, its our right or even our duty to ensure that our politicians represent our views, beliefs and morals.

I would be interested in your thoughts if you'd like to address my points.

So how does a government represent everyone's views?

Revelation: they can't.

So there are VOTERS they don't care about (your views - perhaps) and there are VOTERS they do care about. Then you have the other side who try to fill the void and really don't stand for anything, just playing party politics as one might expect them to.

I have nothing else to add to this Hicks topic and will give the matter the due repect it requires by staying silent.

doctorj · 15 November 2005

Smurf1976 · 15 November 2005

I find it interesting that not even those who would be expected to take it seriously seem overly worried about the Brisbane bus scares.

If anyone had seriously believed it then they would have stopped the buses when they became aware of the threat rather than putting it on the national news and then stopping the buses a few hours later.

It sounded absolutely ridiculous to be in Hobart hearing about this threat to buses and trains in Brisbane and that the authorities would be taking action later in the day by stopping the buses and asking people to keep clear. So we just keep driving a bus with a bomb on it around Brisbane, through the suburbs, under the mall and so on because someone tells us it won't go off for a while yet.

It was just too obviously a planned stunt which doesn't seem to have convinced anyone. And so conveniently timed just after the new laws came in and the day before the IR protests.

The tragedy of the messing about with this whole issue is that we are wasting time with pointless activities whilst doing far too little to guard against the real threats to this country.

Lasy year I could very easily have boarded a commercial flight with a major airline without walking through the metal detector or having the contents of my pockets x-rayed because the security screening point was attended by only one person (x-ray machine operator) who was paying no attention to those walking past. I could easily have walked straight past the whole thing. I am not a terrorist and thankfully nobody else passing through the airport that day appears to have been either but the potential danger is obvious.

Meanwhile, we change laws and distribute fridge magnets etc. and drag up "sedition" as an offence. What a joke.

Happy · 16 November 2005

Alternatively as good citizens we could see the appropriate authorities and point out all the shortcomings for further improvement.

If all the necessary procedures are in place, maybe personnel needs retraining or replacing.

We have a right and obligation to play role in this new mad world.

Julia · 16 November 2005

Smurf1976 said:
I find it interesting that not even those who would be expected to take it seriously seem overly worried about the Brisbane bus scares.

If anyone had seriously believed it then they would have stopped the buses when they became aware of the threat rather than putting it on the national news and then stopping the buses a few hours later.

It sounded absolutely ridiculous to be in Hobart hearing about this threat to buses and trains in Brisbane and that the authorities would be taking action later in the day by stopping the buses and asking people to keep clear. So we just keep driving a bus with a bomb on it around Brisbane, through the suburbs, under the mall and so on because someone tells us it won't go off for a while yet.

It was just too obviously a planned stunt which doesn't seem to have convinced anyone. And so conveniently timed just after the new laws came in and the day before the IR protests.

The tragedy of the messing about with this whole issue is that we are wasting time with pointless activities whilst doing far too little to guard against the real threats to this country.

Lasy year I could very easily have boarded a commercial flight with a major airline without walking through the metal detector or having the contents of my pockets x-rayed because the security screening point was attended by only one person (x-ray machine operator) who was paying no attention to those walking past. I could easily have walked straight past the whole thing. I am not a terrorist and thankfully nobody else passing through the airport that day appears to have been either but the potential danger is obvious.

Meanwhile, we change laws and distribute fridge magnets etc. and drag up "sedition" as an offence. What a joke.

Smurf,

Re the Brisbane situation, you're probably taking your cynicism a bit far -
the alleged perpetrator has been arrested. That is, unless you think the conspiracy included someone prepared to go to jail to validate "the hoax"?
That said, you make other really valid and realistic points.

Cheers
Julia

Smurf1976 · 16 November 2005

Julia said:
Smurf,

Re the Brisbane situation, you're probably taking your cynicism a bit far -
the alleged perpetrator has been arrested. That is, unless you think the conspiracy included someone prepared to go to jail to validate "the hoax"?
That said, you make other really valid and realistic points.

Cheers
Julia

Fair point, I was wrong about it being a hoax in Brisbane. It wasn't a hoax.

But I do think we have a "boy who cried wolf" problem here. Every day we hear about terrorist this, terrorist that and terrorist something else. "Terrorist" is right up there with pop stars, actors and sports people as a "brand" these days. We're becomming so used to hearing about terrorists that we just don't take it seriously enough when a potential threat arises. The politicisation of the issue is largely to blame for this in my view.

It was the lack of seriousness in the response which lead me to think the Brisbane incident to be a hoax. It was just too unreal to be hearing on the radio that the authorities were going to do something about it in a couple of hours time because whoever made the threat had told them it wasn't urgent. Surely it must have occurred that by giving a specific time and stopping buses only around that time the authorities would be ensuring that large numbers of buses were near the city centre with plenty of people on board shortly after services resumed. A perfect setup for a real attack.

Julia · 16 November 2005

Smurf1976 said:
Fair point, I was wrong about it being a hoax in Brisbane. It wasn't a hoax.

But I do think we have a "boy who cried wolf" problem here. Every day we hear about terrorist this, terrorist that and terrorist something else. "Terrorist" is right up there with pop stars, actors and sports people as a "brand" these days. We're becomming so used to hearing about terrorists that we just don't take it seriously enough when a potential threat arises. The politicisation of the issue is largely to blame for this in my view.

It was the lack of seriousness in the response which lead me to think the Brisbane incident to be a hoax. It was just too unreal to be hearing on the radio that the authorities were going to do something about it in a couple of hours time because whoever made the threat had told them it wasn't urgent. Surely it must have occurred that by giving a specific time and stopping buses only around that time the authorities would be ensuring that large numbers of buses were near the city centre with plenty of people on board shortly after services resumed. A perfect setup for a real attack.

Yes, your last sentence is absolutely right. Hadn't thought of that. Let's fervently hope the real thing never happens. A decade ago if we heard the word terrorist it was in relation to a place far from Australia, with the obvious exceptions of the Hilton bombing and the Rainbow Warrior in NZ, in contrast to its pervasiveness in so many aspects of our lives these days.

wayneL · 16 November 2005

An interesting article from ex-president Jimmy Carter in the LA Times:

This isn't the real America
By Jimmy Carter, JIMMY CARTER was the 39th president of the United States. His newest book is "Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis," published this month by Simon & Schuster.

IN RECENT YEARS, I have become increasingly concerned by a host of radical government policies that now threaten many basic principles espoused by all previous administrations, Democratic and Republican.

These include the rudimentary American commitment to peace, economic and social justice, civil liberties, our environment and human rights.

Also endangered are our historic commitments to providing citizens with truthful information, treating dissenting voices and beliefs with respect, state and local autonomy and fiscal responsibility.....

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-carter14nov14,0,7164514.story

ghotib · 16 November 2005

Smurf1976 said:
Fair point, I was wrong about it being a hoax in Brisbane. It wasn't a hoax.

Errrr... I think he was arrested for hoaxing. That's a crime too.

But I do think we have a "boy who cried wolf" problem here.

I strenuously agree. And from a different angle, so does Ross Gittins:

FORGIVE me if I'm not shaking in my shoes over the risk of terrorism on our shores. There is a risk, of course, but it's being greatly exaggerated. My scepticism comes after 30 years in journalism, watching such scares from close quarters.

In that time I've learnt three things: how easy it is to scare the pants off a public looking for bad news stories to spice up humdrum lives; how many interest groups stand to benefit by manipulating the public's emotions; and how much more we'd be able to do to reduce risks to life and limb if only we'd assess those risks in a more cool-headed way.

There are plenty of things that offer a greater threat to our wellbeing than local terrorism, and they aren't getting nearly as much attention or money lavished on them. Getting overexcited about terrorism, in other words, has its opportunity cost.

When the Roy Morgan poll asked Australians to name the most important problem facing the nation, they gave top billing to terrorism. Fully 21 per cent nominated terrorism and other security problems, well ahead of environmental problems (including global warming), on 15 per cent, and various economic issues totalling 14 per cent.

That poll was conducted more than a month ago. Just imagine how much higher terrorism's score would be today. But here's a hint that something funny's going on: when the same question was put to a group of Australian opinion leaders, only 5 per cent nominated terrorism as our most important problem...

The full column is at http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/...bigticket-issue/2005/11/15/1132016790314.html

I guess most of us have thought about where a terrorist attack might happen or how it might affect us and the people we love, and no doubt many of us have changed something about our lives as a result. But still, we're all at much greater risk of death or injury from a road accident then we are from terrorism. And ya know, a bushfire is still a scarier and a more destructive event than any individual terrorist event has been, including Sept 11.

They're only people, people.

Cheers

Ghoti

Smurf1976 · 17 November 2005

ghotib said:
Errrr... I think he was arrested for hoaxing. That's a crime too.

I was referring to a hoax by the authorities as opposed to a hoax by someone external which, in practice, the authorities had no proof of being a hoax until after the event.

wayneL · 24 November 2005

A submission to the Inquiry into the provisions of the Anti-Terrorism Bill (No. 2) 2005, by Dr Gideon Polya.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/terrorism/submissions/sub112.pdf

and more at

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/terrorism/submissions/sublist.htm

Today's "anti-terrorist" raids

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Smurf1976

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VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

ghotib

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Smurf1976

wayneL

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