Today's "anti-terrorist" raids

[Julia]

When I logged on this evening I expected to see some comment about what has been today's main news story and wonder why no one has sofar commented?

Is it because we expected this, particularly in the light of the urgently introduced legislation?

Is it because we are confused about what is actually going on?

Is it because perhaps we're hesitant to express views which would appear to be politically incorrect?

Do you feel threatened by the fear of a terrorist attack on home ground?

Is the government/Federal Police etc doing what we want and expect them to do?

Would be interested to hear views on this from forum members who obviously constitute a diverse base of personal and political views.


Julia

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

When I logged on this evening I expected to see some comment about what has been today's main news story and wonder why no one has sofar commented?

Is it because we expected this, particularly in the light of the urgently introduced legislation?

Is it because we are confused about what is actually going on?

Is it because perhaps we're hesitant to express views which would appear to be politically incorrect?

Do you feel threatened by the fear of a terrorist attack on home ground?

Is the government/Federal Police etc doing what we want and expect them to do?

Would be interested to hear views on this from forum members who obviously constitute a diverse base of personal and political views.


Julia

I consider the government's actions to be excellent. They know what's going on and have acted swiftly. I praise them and ASIO.

I'm not confused about what's going on. A worldwide revolution against the west and the religious intolerance that comes with that revolution. Look at Holland and the problems with radicals who have the government in hiding in fear of assasination.

Wanting to kill yourself in the name of your religion is crazy and pure evil. Hate sermons and the selling of books supporting religious hatred at places in Sydney and Melbourne is extreme. Therefore I support the new legislation and hope the bleeding hearts all wake up to what is really underway worldwide.

Snake

 

[doctorj]

There's every chance today was the last Aussie terrorist arrest we'll hear of as these new laws come into effect. Journalists provide critical oversight over our law makers and enforcers and shutting them out leaves me with an uncomfortable feeling.

'Fair Go' is an Australian concept through and through. These men, like all others deserved to be innocent until proven guilty and deserve access to proper representation. Without media access, this is under threat.

Anyone picked up a George Orwell book lately? How far away are we? Have we already lost our battle with terrorism?

 

[wayneL]

There's every chance today was the last Aussie terrorist arrest we'll hear of as these new laws come into effect. Journalists provide critical oversight over our law makers and enforcers and shutting them out leaves me with an uncomfortable feeling.

'Fair Go' is an Australian concept through and through. These men, like all others deserved to be innocent until proven guilty and deserve access to proper representation. Without media access, this is under threat.

Anyone picked up a George Orwell book lately? How far away are we? Have we already lost our battle with terrorism?

Good comments Doc,

The timing of this seems a bit too convenient.... as seems to always be the case around the western world atm.

Orwell turns out to be a prophet...hmmmmm

 

[doctorj]

It is very convenient. Interestingly enough, it would seem they were charged under the old laws on the basis of "membership of a proscribed organisation", rather than the new. That didn't stop several politicians beating the drum over just how great they were for saving the day.

Peter Costello came out and said "Let's hope we have prevented a large-scale terrorist event, this does really illustrate that the threat of terrorism is real." Personally I'd much rather they didn't prevent a terrorist attack. I'd much rather there wasn't one to prevent at all.

All to convenient if you ask me. What happens next time? To loosely quote Crikey, under the legislation the need to prove just cause for a warrant or an arrest is being removed; the right to face one's accusers and test the evidence is removed; and we are required to trust the word of the various police and security agencies when they tell us someone has been naughty. Add to this the fact that we're not even allowed to know and even if they media does get ahold of it, saying anything will see them spend several years in jail.

 

[Smurf1976]

I do have a lingering question about the whole terrorism thing. Can anybody tell me who the manufacturer of the second aircraft to hit the World Trade Centre on 11 September 2001 was? I don't know the answer but it is relevant.

As for recent developments, I have a question to ask.

Most of us here on ASF would know or could easily find the location of at least one major: Airport, Railway station, Power station, Nightclub, Bus, Oil refinery, Reservoir, Office building, Bridge.

Now, would anyone be brave enough to put a 36 exposure film (actual film, not digital) in a camera and go and take 4 photographs of each of these using a zoom lense from freely accessible locations and then take the film in for processing?

Didn't think so.

Would you even be brave enough to take photos of any kind of likely terrorist target at all?

With the exception of airports I have at some point photographed all of these things. I honestly don't think I would feel safe doing so today.

Am I concerned about terrorists? Moderately. But having done some research into the political aspects of the 1930s, I'm more worried about John Howard and George Bush than I am about terrorists. Jews then, Muslims now.

 

[wayneL]

Am I concerned about terrorists? Moderately. But having done some research into the political aspects of World War 2, I'm more worried about John Howard and George Bush than I am about terrorists. Jews then, Muslims now.

Ditto that!

I think we have every reason to be concerned that forums such as these are being monitored. (As a matter of fact it is. All electronic communications are screened. Much of it done not more than 30 k's from here at the Geraldton spy base.) We should be very careful what we say.

Welcome to the new age of paranoia folks.

 

[doctorj]

The point is that these things need to be said. To not question is to not care. To be Australian is to believe in egalitarianism. Our politicians exist to represent us, not to mother us.

 

[wayneL]

The point is that these things need to be said. To not question is to not care. To be Australian is to believe in egalatarianism. Our politicians exist to represent us, not to mother us.

Yes indeed!!!!!

But we need a critical mass of people to question, to uphold ideals of egalatarianism, to remind politicians that they represent US! Not the U.S.!

Unfortunately so many people have the wind put up them, they are happy to give away freedom, in exchange for purported security. Ironically, the average joker is fast losing both through crap like this legislation.

So you are right! We need to say these things.

 

[Smurf1976]

Consider just how far this whole "terrorism" thing has gone in just the last 18 months. The whole thing, by which I mean the government :swear:, has been massively scaled up over that time. It's all getting faster and faster just as many predicted it would.

Do you honestly believe that you will be allowed to simply wonder around the streets in 5 years time without being questioned and required to produce ID?For that matter, will we still have streets to wonder around in?

Now the NSW government is saying we ought to be preparing for a nuclear attack. Did someone say we were winning the war on terror? Obviously not.

There is usually geopolitical strife when the major financial markets are over valued and this time is no different. The US market topped in 2000 and we've had increasing strife ever since. Oh for a decent bear market to bring back some sense to the world.

 

[Aussiejeff]

It's quite obvious by most of the comments by "the common Australian" that we ourselves don't feel immediately threatened by so-called "terrorists", yet the pollies are running around going "*ga-ga*".

Then again, it's all no surprise to me that our political "leaders" are doing their utmost to protect their own backs. "Leaders" of all persuasions and religious leanings over the past few millenia have all gone the "hard line against unbelievers" route before - eg the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, Spanish, French, British & German "empires" etc - to name just a few.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the aftermath of all of histories "hardline" campaigns against "terrorists"? Did we WIN in the end????

Seems to me the more intolerant and agro "we" all get ("we" being the most abused word of ALL politicians) - the more trouble and strife "we" all end up in. Mind you, regaining some semblance of tolerance for our fellow "terrorist" human beings is a tough ask once a certain point of intolerance has been induced/reached......

My advice to you all - buy a flack jacket, wear a kevlar/steel helmet and a bird flu mask at all times. Be afraid at all times, be very, very afraid. Padlock your windows and doors. Do not answer the telephone. Do not say ANYTHING to your friends and family (remember Stalins era?). Sell your car and walk everywhere. Report everyone with a bag in their possession. Finally, you MUST OBEY and believe EVERYTHING your political masters say - it is for your own good.

Have a lovely life,

Marvin, The Depressed Robot.

Edit PS: THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY, HO-HO, HEE-HEE, HA-HAAA-aaaa............!!

 

[RodC]

At least in this case the raids seem to have been conducted under the current laws which means we (the public) at least have some of the information as to what is going on. This allows open opinions and discussion and considered assessment.

Unfortunately in the future with limited reporting allowed and closed courtrooms, the only info we will get will be the spin the politicians want us to hear.

Remember "children overboard", "WMD" ?

Rod.

 

[amohonour]

We may well look at what was done and think it is to some degree an over reaction but i would rather live in a country where we act upon things unlike the slackness of USA and look what happened there. If they are innocent then let our judical system sort things out. I am suprised though that men can openly attack others while all is caught on camera yet is this allowable isnt that assault. So why are those men not arrested on assault charges that is what concerns me. It all doesnt make much sense.

 

[Milk Man]

The two main contributors in this case IMO are ignorance and the media.

The media are nearly always one eyed and tend to play like a broken record. They really shouldnt be reporting on anything of great significance to national security until all is said and done. Like now, Muslims are being alienated because people that dress the same as them are on TV screaming blue murder when for all they know the arrested may well be terrorists. Its a pretty good way to breed hatred and division and will only help the terrorists. They should be gagged somewhat; although given the nature of politics it is quite dangerous to do so.

The media are ignorant. They are taught firstly by debating at school to pick a side and win the argument. The side with the best material gets their attention. Its all well and good to be a human rights campaigner but if a bomb got on the street and killed your wife/child/sibling/parent etc. Id bet youd like to cave the skull of the SOB that made it.

I dont care what the govt does to stop terrorism. Enough aussies have died in Bali already. The one right that should remain is innocent until proven guilty IMO; but no bail till found innocent and other strict measures would be good.

 

[wayneL]

Terrorism in Context in the Western World

Lets compare:

The number of people killed by drivers exceeding the speed limit

The number of people killed by guns/knives/beatings (by our own that is)

The number of people killed by cigarettes/booze/drugs

The number of people killed by doctors (yep it'd shock you)

The number of people killed by terrorists

There is no comparison. We are being worked over psychologically folks, and it ain't by the terrorists.

There is an agenda.

 

[doctorj]

There is an agenda.

That's what I figure, but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The only thing that comes to mind is to get reelected or to take heat off the IR reforms.

How many civil liberties are we willing to sacrifice for the politicising of terrorism? Unfortunately people believe that the new laws "won't effect me, only those bastard terrorists!" and the politicians are afraid of voting against the legislation and being labelled as the person that aided terrorists.

 

[Smurf1976]

There is an agenda.

Strongly agreed there.

As to what, my best guess so far is that this is what happens when you have an imminent decline in the supply of a key resource (oil) combined with seriously imbalanced Western economies.

The big tell tale here in my opinion is the events which surrounded September 11. Everyone knows that the stock market crashed as a result and then rebounded, right? WRONG! The market topped 18 MONTHS before the terror attacks under the weight of it's own serious overvaluation. Nothing to do with terrorists but more to do with the NASDAQ mania of late-1999 early-2000. How convenient that a financial debacle was "explained" by a terrorist attack which then enabled the massive diversion of the public's attention to a new issue and facilitated the war in Iraq.

As for Iraq, if you look at the global oil discovery trend for the past 40 years (a series of lower highs and lower lows which is now very much below the rate of consumption) then I think it is pretty obvious what that war was really about. Not taking control of the oilfields as such, but ensuring that the oil is extracted AND SOLD IN US DOLLARS.

Iran's great sin, by the way, is threatening to trade oil in Euros just as Iraq did. No surprise then that Iran is the subject of all kinds of threats. Iran also just happens to have a huge amount of natural gas, something both the USA and UK are fast running out of.

All this war for oil stuff makes the environmental and visual impact of coal, hydro, wind etc. seem rather trivial in comparisson. And yet they're the energy sources which attract such strong opposition. The world would be a much better place if we used less oil in my opinion and if these other things are the way to do it then I'm very much in favour of them no matter what it does to the scenery. Beats fighting more wars.

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Well, this is the bleeding hearts post.

You have all missed the point. They were amassing chemicals etc to build bombs to kill Australians. They were under surveilance for a long time and the new laws have helped put them away where they belong for the time being. It's that simple.

I challenge you all to do the research and you'll be shocked at what you find out. Don't rely on the Aussie press, but dig deeper. While you cry for your civil liberties, mind you if you are law abiding you'll have them, they plan the domination of the western world with their revolution of religious hatred. Look at Holland, it is particularly disturbing. While the relaxed values of that country have been extended to the radicals, they in turn have not embraced the society they moved to and have tried to turn it up side down. Now the government has gotten tough and they are the bad ones.

doctorj,

That's what I figure, but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The only thing that comes to mind is to get reelected or to take heat off the IR reforms.

A little immature don't you think. Where's your intelligence man? IR reforms, you've got to be joking!

Snake

 

[RodC]

You have all missed the point. They were amassing chemicals etc to build bombs to kill Australians. They were under surveilance for a long time and the new laws have helped put them away where they belong for the time being. It's that simple.

Snake,

This is alleged at the moment.

If these charges are proven, they will be dealt with openly by the legal system. Which is exactly as it should be.

The problem I have is that some of the proposed laws take the openness out of the legal system by prohibiting reporting etc. How can the electorate make decisions as to how the laws are working if they only receive one censored viewpoint.

Rod.

 

[Smurf1976]

Does anyone ever stop to think WHY these people hate the Western countries?

Perhaps it has something to do with our collective domination of other countries, stealing their resources and pushing Christianity where it is not welcome.

Just stop and think for a moment about how much of government policy is basically aimed at pushing "Christian" values. Hardly tolerant of a diverse culture now is it? And we wonder why others hate us.

By the way, I have nothing against Christians but Christian fundamentalism, like any fundamentalism, is arrogant in the extreme and yet that's exactly what the Australian, US and UK governments are pushing. How often do we hear about "family values" which is usually just a means of pushing a Christian viewpoint in disguise.

Since when did government properly have a role in such matters as religion anyway? Isn't it for each individual to decide? Meanwhile we wonder why other religious fundamentalists hate us. Not hard to work it out...

Get away from religion, get away from oil and get out of foreign countries (even if it hurts our beloved economy) and in all probabilty we wouldn't have had terrorists in the first place. Now we're stuck with a problem of our own making. We stamped all over a wasp nest and no we're being chased down the street by a swarm of angry wasps. Hardly surprising.

Ever stopped to think how many developed countries DON'T have problems with terrorists? Ever wonder why they're targeting Australia and not New Zealand? Think about it...