The West has lost its freedom of speech

[wayneL]

I'm going to be shutting down all threads on topics relating to identity politics in the near future. So threads on race, gender, sexual orientation, and possibly religion, are no longer going to be permitted.

These threads are now way more trouble than they are worth. Google is now having issues with content on ASF on a regular basis. These issues always relate to content in threads on identity politics. Some new algorithm is at work and it started recently. Not surprisingly these threads also happen to the be the ones where people tend to attack and label each other. Some people let these topics get them far too emotional and angry.

Politics generally can continue to be discussed, but I'm advising everyone to please lay off the personal attacks and labeling because it's becoming tiresome.

The fundamental rules:

1. Stay on topic.
2. Discuss the issue, not each other.
3. No personal attacks and labelling. Keep it civil.

Mea culpa. Got sucked into this yet again after promising myself that I wouldn't.

I invite some discussion on my central bankery thread, just as current but more important in the context of this forum.

 

[Smurf1976]

threads on race, gender, sexual orientation, and possibly religion, are no longer going to be permitted

Strongly agreed.

There's some relevance in discussing real politics on this forum, that is the actual stated policies of the government and proper opposition parties, since policy does impact business including listed companies in many ways. If the government, or a credible opposition party, has a policy that's going to have a major impact on whatever listed company or investors in general then it seems a reasonable point of discussion.

Likewise I see relevance in discussing broad concepts and possibilities such as, for example, high speed trains, electric cars or 5G networks since that sort of thing does have very real relevance to business and at least some listed companies either as builders or owners of infrastructure or because it competes with their existing business. For example high speed trains would compete against established airlines, electric cars compete against fuel suppliers, etc. There's some definite business relevance in that sort of thing, including to some large "household name" listed companies.

In contrast race, religion etc are "all pain, no gain" for ASF in my view. They're completely unrelated to the forum's primary subject, are unlikely to bring even one new member to it but may well offend some potential or existing members who then choose to not join / leave as a result. From a purely business perspective it's nothing to gain, only losses.

For things like music, holiday photos, fishing or whatever I see no problem so long as they're contained to a thread or two in General Chat and don't become the dominant focus of the forum. It's harmless and easily ignored by those not interested - just about every forum has an "off topic" section after all.

If it was up to me then no discussion about race, gender, religion or religion-like subjects. It's all pain, no gain. ASF cannot win from that sort of discussion.

Commenting on the issue itself, I'll simply say that taking a "neutral" perspective on such subjects has become extremely difficult and that's part of why it's a no-win proposition on ASF. Express your views on racism or sexism and regardless of what you say, most will seek to pigeon hole you as being on one side or the other. If you're not advocating for Team A then you must be advocating for Team B, the idea that you're taking a neutral stance simply doesn't compute with those beating the drums of conflict. That's the reality as I see it, and it precludes sensible discussion other than among people who all know each other extremely well personally.

Personally I'm pretty broad minded and don't recall ever using the "ignore" function on this forum. Reality though is the world mostly doesn't work like that these days, many do take offence rather easily, and ultimately ASF is a stock market forum, it's a business, and needs to operate with that in mind.

 

[Joe Blow]

There are so many interesting topics that are economics related and that can be discussed intelligently and in real depth.

I believe these identity politics issues are nothing more than a distraction from the real issues that face us. They are Facebook fodder for the outrage mobs. I'm sure that the powers that be are very happy that we are shouting at each other about which pronouns and bathrooms we should be using rather than paying close attention to what is really going on in the world.

We are living in unprecedented times. There is so much going on in the world economically and socioeconomically that we can and should be discussing.

These topics will never be discussed on most social media in any depth because social media isn't built for that type of discussion. I have joined and been observing ASX Facebook Groups for a few years now and have reached the conclusion that it is for short form content only, and very short form at that. It is superficial at best.

Forums are still the only venue where interesting technical topics can be discussed in real depth. Blogs can also do these topics well, but blogs take the form of an essay followed by comments. Forums are real discussions and debates that can incorporate file attachments, images and video content and can go on for years.

Let's start sinking our teeth into topics of real substance and leave the Facebook fodder to those who get off on that kind of stuff.

There's a software upgrade coming soon. I would like to change more than the software when that happens. I want to refocus ASF as well. More long form content of real value, more in depth discussions on important issues and more civility all around.

 

[Joe Blow]

In contrast race, religion etc are "all pain, no gain" for ASF in my view.

This is the sad reality. Sad only in the sense that these issues pretty much always descend into tribalism and along partisan lines. You rarely see any discussion of real value, just people standing their ground ideologically and then personal attacks and labelling when nether side is prepared to give an inch.

The best discussions at ASF are those in which there is a real exchange of knowledge and ideas and where people build on what others have contributed. Sometimes there are amazing insights to be had when intelligent and thoughtful people dissect a topic of real importance.

It would be nice to get back to that kind of discussion.

 

[Joe Blow]

I'm going to be shutting down all threads on topics relating to identity politics in the near future. So threads on race, gender, sexual orientation, and possibly religion, are no longer going to be permitted.

I will make this change officially when the forum software is upgraded so people can continue to chat away in those threads until then. I'm hoping to upgrade the software at the end of this month.

I should point out that we are only talking about a handful of threads, probably only a dozen or so out of the more than 25,000 that currently exist. I hope that this does not impact the level of posting as there is an almost infinite amount of interesting topics to debate and discuss that do not revolve around identity politics issues.

 

[IFocus]

There are so many interesting topics that are economics related and that can be discussed intelligently and in real depth.

I believe these identity politics issues are nothing more than a distraction from the real issues that face us. They are Facebook fodder for the outrage mobs. I'm sure that the powers that be are very happy that we are shouting at each other about which pronouns and bathrooms we should be using rather than paying close attention to what is really going on in the world.

We are living in unprecedented times. There is so much going on in the world economically and socioeconomically that we can and should be discussing.

These topics will never be discussed on most social media in any depth because social media isn't built for that type of discussion. I have joined and been observing ASX Facebook Groups for a few years now and have reached the conclusion that it is for short form content only, and very short form at that. It is superficial at best.

Forums are still the only venue where interesting technical topics can be discussed in real depth. Blogs can also do these topics well, but blogs take the form of an essay followed by comments. Forums are real discussions and debates that can incorporate file attachments, images and video content and can go on for years.

Let's start sinking our teeth into topics of real substance and leave the Facebook fodder to those who get off on that kind of stuff.

There's a software upgrade coming soon. I would like to change more than the software when that happens. I want to refocus ASF as well. More long form content of real value, more in depth discussions on important issues and more civility all around.

That was a pretty good post Joe certainly resonated with me.

 

[Joe Blow]

That was a pretty good post Joe certainly resonated with me.

It will be interesting to see if we lose some people once these divisive social issues are no longer discussed. I think that the anger and righteous indignation that some people feel when discussing these highly emotive wedge issues can be like a drug. Once you take that drug away they may go looking for it elsewhere.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Sometimes there are amazing insights to be had when intelligent and thoughtful people dissect a topic of real importance.

...like not losing money

 

[Smurf1976]

It will be interesting to see if we lose some people once these divisive social issues are no longer discussed. I think that the anger and righteous indignation that some people feel when discussing these highly emotive wedge issues can be like a drug. Once you take that drug away they may go looking for it elsewhere.

Beliefs versus science.

If someone has a "belief" in anything then it tends to be non-negotiable and something they aren't willing to even consider might not be true.

That reality lies at the heart of most of these debates. Entrenched positions and an unwillingness to even consider that they were either never true or that they were true in the past but for whatever reason are no longer true today.

There's the odd exception, there are some who will subject things to scrutiny and change their views based on the evidence, but that's not the majority. For an investor or trader though, that's exactly the approach that's needed. Act based on evidence and be quick to acknowledge mistakes and get out. Holding onto a losing position, because selling would require acknowledging that buying was a mistake, is a sure way to lose.

My own view of the world can be summed up by saying that there's a well known church in central Hobart which, as was well known at the time, had a gay nightclub out the back on church property. A good mix I thought, I'm neither gay nor religious but it seemed like a nice contrast, but the predictable outcome ensued.

Running a No Dams film on constant loop at the Hydro's centenary exhibition is another example of that sort of thinking. That one was more successful, at least partly because it was set up such that there was no means by which the public could switch it off.

If someone can't mock themselves and see the other side then I think they need to lighten up a bit really. Unfortunately we're living in a world where things are taken far too seriously and literally and the ability to self reflect has largely been lost.

Pragmatically, well the only solution for the forum is to end discussion on certain subjects so I'm not arguing against that in any way.

 

[qldfrog]

I noted that Joe mentioned issues with Google so irrespective of the relevance of dealing about race sex of angels etc here
as forum owner Joe is pushed to ban these subjects
An irony not to be lost in a thread named "the west has lost its freedom of speech.."
What has to be demonstrated is clearly demonstrated.we have lost our freedom of speech.
Obviously, ASF is stock finance dedicated and is not really to be concerned..but as a society, we should when Google dictates what we can write or not.
And what will be next?
This is called widespread censorship.

 

[SirRumpole]

I noted that Joe mentioned issues with Google so irrespective of the relevance of dealing about race sex of angels etc here
as forum owner Joe is pushed to ban these subjects
An irony not to be lost in a thread named "the west has lost its freedom of speech.."
What has to be demonstrated is clearly demonstrated.we have lost our freedom of speech.
Obviously, ASF is stock finance dedicated and is not really to be concerned..but as a society, we should when Google dictates what we can write or not.
And what will be next?
This is called widespread censorship.

I'd propose a middle route.

Any subject can be discussed, but as soon as anyone makes insulting remarks to a member of the forum (either named or on a "nudge-nudge we know who you mean" basis, or makes unsubstantiated allegations against certain groups in the community then the thread gets deleted.

This is obviously up to Joe to decide whether the line has been crossed.

That will allow civil discussion, but also draw a line in the sand on how the subject gets discussed.

 

[qldfrog]

I'd propose a middle route.

Any subject can be discussed, but as soon as anyone makes insulting remarks to a member of the forum (either named or on a "nudge-nudge we know who you mean" basis, or makes unsubstantiated allegations against certain groups in the community then the thread gets deleted.

This is obviously up to Joe to decide whether the line has been crossed.

That will allow civil discussion, but also draw a line in the sand on how the subject gets discussed.

Joe has to do what is best for the forum, and if google and FB implement censorship, he has to follow.
ASF does not need these subjects, but it can quickly become edgy:
I believe it will not be long when any view not accepting the idea that co2 is causing global warming will be labelled fake news , and this domain is critical economically and so share market wise.
I worked 3y in mainland China so understand the need to put limits so that your business carries on, and @Joe Blow mission is the forum survival/thriving, but the fact is hiding problems is not helping.
Joe has to ban these discussions if it blacklists asf with search engines etc.no choice
As individuals and investors, maybe we should actually try to profit from the dumbing of the population and the effect of propaganda and PC stupidity if we can not fight it.
This could maybe be an interesting thread.as for the fight for enlightment, let's just keep it within the ballot booth while we are still allowed..i remember Pauline being put in front of courts just to ensure the booth option was removed from her supporters..so option might diseappear..
Take comfort in the fact that in history, these denial of truth usually ends up in societal collapses

 

[Dona Ferentes]

As a youngster, I was an attendee with my family at Society of Friends (Quakers) . Like many we 'fell away' but there was one really good practice I've remembered. Nature of the service was to sit in silence until moved by the Spirit. Then you could stand and talk. Others could respond or silence resume. You weren't to reply. Or control the discussion, let alone argue. Points were heard and the service moved on.

In other words, consider carefully in context.

 

[SirRumpole]

As individuals and investors, maybe we should actually try to profit from the dumbing of the population and the effect of propaganda and PC stupidity if we can not fight it.

What do you suggest ?

 

[qldfrog]

What do you suggest ?

Let's try to open a new thread.busy lately but will give it a try, basically need a 3 steps attack, detect new stupid trend, jump in share wise ideally ETF and ride it while the Gremlins pile up, observe trend jump out into the opposite domain when the trend/denial of facts is going to be blasted or just die off
Virus is one, climate warming co2, a second, then a gender/skin colour one as a 3rd..
Just starting points..

 

[SirRumpole]

Let's try to open a new thread.busy lately but will give it a try, basically need a 3 steps attack, detect new stupid trend, jump in share wise ideally ETF and ride it while the Gremlins pile up, observe trend jump out into the opposite domain when the trend/denial of facts is going to be blasted or just die off
Virus is one, climate warming co2, a second, then a gender/skin colour one as a 3rd..
Just starting points..

These sort of things are usually called scams, and although I agree with taking advantage of stupidity I think you have to give people some value for money.

But yes, the tech bubble was a result of speculation based by not a lot and it made people money so why not jump in on the trends ?

 

[Joe Blow]

This appears to be a purely commercial move by Google. Advertisers no longer wish to be associated with content that is in any way derogatory of certain movements or groups, BLM being one. There are others.

My concern has always been the way that people treat each other. I don't give two hoots about anyone's opinion. But I object to the way that certain threads seem to always descend into vitriol and personal attacks. It is political tribalism and it seems to be replacing religious tribalism in our increasingly secular society. It is in our DNA to adopt ideologies or world views as fundamental truths and to treat others who think differently as members of an enemy tribe. When you stand back and look at it objectively it is all very apparent.

Sorry to use @Smurf1976 again as an example but he is obviously someone who is not emotionally invested in any ideology. His arguments are clearly and dispassionately articulated, as is the basis of his views. He never insults others and refuses to get down in the mud even when provoked. It is an approach that makes for constructive discussion and debate.

So what is it that makes people get emotional and angry when discussing certain issues? I'm sure personality plays a part, but being too emotionally invested in your own opinions and/or belief systems is clearly a key factor. Those who see themselves as belonging to an ideological team or group appear to be the most aggressive and this is because people who are members of an ideological tribe tend to be more certain of the truth of their beliefs because it is constantly being reinforced and validated by other members of the tribe.

Happiness also appears to be a factor. Unhappy people are more likely to be angry at others. My old man was an unhappy person and those around him paid the price for his unhappiness. Anger is a symptom of unhappiness. I know this from personal experience. Most of us know angry people and see how that anger manifests itself in their lives. Anger is like hate, it's toxic and destructive and it infects almost everything it touches. It ruins lives.

So what's the answer? I don't know. But the easy answer is to shut down the discussion of certain topics because I don't think that things are likely to change. The world is becoming an increasingly ugly place, especially online. I guarantee you that if we were all in one room together discussing controversial issues there wouldn't be insults flying around to the same extent because we would all be forced to look each other in the eye. But online the keyboard warrior effect takes hold and it affects some people more than others. Some people are capable of treating others with respect in person and online while others are not.

ASF is a stock market forum. That's the bottom line and everyone needs to respect its purpose. The General Chat forum has always been an indulgence. Its intention was to provide a place where people could discuss issues that were not related to the stock market. For the most part it works, but in some ways it doesn't. There are no insults or personal attacks in the Travel Photos thread, but visit some of the threads on religion, gay marriage and immigration and it's a different story. So logically it makes sense to get rid of the topics that cause the problems. From a management perspective that's the sensible decision to make. The other alternative, which is to ask people to treat others with respect, to play the ball not the man, to be civil at all times has been tried and has failed many, many times. It simply doesn't work and I have now accepted that.

 

[SirRumpole]

I can't argue with anything you said Joe, it's your forum and you must do what you think it's best.

Unfortunately what you say pretty clearly demonstrates that we have lost at least in part our freedom of speech.

The Israel Folau incident demonstrates that pretty well. Remarks which once were treated with just a sneer by the majority were latched onto by the outrage brigade and the same commercial pressures that are being applied to you were applied to his employers and he was hounded out of the game.

Obviously and understandably you don't want the same to happen to you. In that way I understand and agree with your decision, and that threads that contain personal vitriol should be deleted. So be it , it's the way of our now ever restrictive world.

From a "Leftie tribalist".

 

[Joe Blow]

I can't argue with anything you said Joe, it's your forum and you must do what you think it's best.

Unfortunately what you say pretty clearly demonstrates that we have lost at least in part our freedom of speech.

It's possible to have nothing to do with Google. Unfortunately I am not in that position so I must abide by their rules and guidelines.

It's easy to set up a blog or a forum and use none of Google's services and just post away. Depending on the content you may or may not rank in Google's search engine but you can certainly create whatever lawful content you like and link to it from other websites.

That freedom of speech isn't gone. But if you choose to use services associated with Google, particularly revenue generating services, then you have to abide by their rules regarding acceptable content.

 

[qldfrog]

It's possible to have nothing to do with Google. Unfortunately I am not in that position so I must abide by their rules and guidelines.

It's easy to set up a blog or a forum and use none of Google's services and just post away. Depending on the content you may or may not rank in Google's search engine but you can certainly create whatever lawful content you like and link to it from other websites.

That freedom of speech isn't gone. But if you choose to use services associated with Google, particularly revenue generating services, then you have to abide by their rules regarding acceptable content.

Fully understand but defacto it means we have lost freedom of speech, this is the sorry fact.and i i agr with you Joe that you have to abide to google might.no choice sadly.
I hope it will let people reflect before criticism of the Putin and Xi of this world.are we really better...