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The West has lost its freedom of speech

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wayneL said:
Thanks, that clarifies the nature of the "offense".

Does that detracr from my point? I wouldn't have though so..
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Ignoring the debate about whether it is a criminal or not your point isn't really relevant to 18C or 18D (don't ignore that section because it's important).

Someone who drops the N word, should be seen as an 4sshole, but not a criminal.

To use an analogy, adultery has a potentially greater capacity for psychological harm than calling someone a choge or a coon, yet out government is blase' about one, yet creates a criminal offense out of the other.

...and understand, I use those words for effect in argument and don't condone their use.
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The problem is that calling someone a N****** or a "Choge" or a "coon" would not give a court of law any basis for upholding a civil judgment against an individual. It'd get thrown out instantly.

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately hyperbolic or you don't understand how 18C works?

My only suggestion is to go and read the current case law.

You'd have to say something with a lot of gravity for it to lose an 18C case.

The high profile Andrew Bolt case for example: he'd probably have lost a Defamation case too. But as I understand it the plaintiff went down the 18C path.
 
From the case of Creek v Cairns Post which was an 18C case, Justice Kiefel said that the conduct in question must cause:

'profound and serious effects, not to be likened to mere slights'

This was heard at Federal Court level. So I'd assume it has a pretty strong precedent that future cases had to follow (it was back in 2001).
 
wayneL said:
I don't disagree with that. But you must agree that political correctness is not always about diplomacy and avoiding war. PC definitely had a place in international diplomacy and in intranational politics, but does does it have a place in normal intercourse between us plebeians?

It might surprise you that I think it does, but with caveats.


For example, I think society should collectively decide that racist name calling is uncool and that there is a role for government in education in that regard, but not on creating statutes. There is a fine line between cultivating liberty and equality and thought policing.

Someone who drops the N word, should be seen as an 4sshole, but not a criminal.

To use an analogy, adultery has a potentially greater capacity for psychological harm than calling someone a choge or a coon, yet out government is blase' about one, yet creates a criminal offense out of the other.

...and understand, I use those words for effect in argument and don't condone their use.
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Given that a person is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law; how many criminals has them statutes against name calling made? What coloured and otherwise minority people could afford to hire a lawyer over name calling? Cheaper to go Bruce Lee on their azz. :D

Yea, it's a stupid law [I haven't read it, but it sounds stupid from what you said]... but you know, pollies got to appear to be doing something for them pay packages.
 
Value Collector said:
no I think its more about not tarring entire groups with the same brush, and getting a real issues rather than making things personal.
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If you were aboriginal would you be taking Bill Leak to court over his cartoon ?

If you are a non aboriginal person on the jury, would you "convict" him under 18C ?
 
Ves said:
Ignoring the debate about whether it is a criminal or not your point isn't really relevant to 18C or 18D (don't ignore that section because it's important).



The problem is that calling someone a N****** or a "Choge" or a "coon" would not give a court of law any basis for upholding a civil judgment against an individual. It'd get thrown out instantly.

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately hyperbolic or you don't understand how 18C works?

My only suggestion is to go and read the current case law.

You'd have to say something with a lot of gravity for it to lose an 18C case.

The high profile Andrew Bolt case for example: he'd probably have lost a Defamation case too. But as I understand it the plaintiff went down the 18C path.
Click to expand...

That's the point that is lost on the Bolt cheer squad. He didn't lose his case because he gave his opinion, he lost his case because the "facts" he invented to reach his conclusions were laughably wrong.

Example...

Bolt said...

“how can Graham Atkinson be co-chair of the Victorian Traditional Owners Land Justice Group when his right to call himself Aboriginal rests on little more than the fact that his Indian great-grandfather married a part-Aboriginal woman?”
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In fact...

Dr Atkinson is an academic who lives in Victoria. He is the brother of Graham Atkinson, who also gave evidence in the proceeding. Dr Atkinson’s parents are both Aboriginal persons and descendants of the Yorta Yorta and Dja Dja Wurrung tribal groups of central Victoria and the Murray Goulburn Region. All four of Dr Atkinson’s grandparents were of Aboriginal descent. All of his great grandparents were of Aboriginal descent except one of his great grandfathers, Thomas Shadrach James. Thomas James was born in Mauritius and was of Indian heritage. He arrived in Australia in the late 1800s and worked as a teacher in Aboriginal communities where he met and married Dr Atkinson’s great grandmother.
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Section 18D provides plenty of protection for free speech. The more insightful observation is not the incidents that have gone to court, but the all the ones that haven't. That Bill Leak cartoon, for example, would be protected by s18D.
 
SirRumpole said:
If you were aboriginal would you be taking Bill Leak to court over his cartoon ?

If you are a non aboriginal person on the jury, would you "convict" him under 18C ?
Click to expand...

I actually can't see much wrong with the cartoon, I think it is making a point about parenting and alcohol abuse more than race, I can see a similar cartoon being used to make a point about white bogans.

I am not familiar enough with the situation in the territory to know whether his points were fair or not, but I don't take it as a racism inspired thing, I can see how a person predisposed to racist fees might take it as confirmation their racist views are correct though.

If I were on a jury I would do my best to understand the spirit of the law, listen to both sides evidence, and then make a decision.
 
Value Collector said:
I actually can't see much wrong with the cartoon, I think it is making a point about parenting and alcohol abuse more than race, I can see a similar cartoon being used to make a point about white bogans.

I am not familiar enough with the situation in the territory to know whether his points were fair or not, but I don't take it as a racism inspired thing, I can see how a person predisposed to racist fees might take it as confirmation their racist views are correct though.

If I were on a jury I would do my best to understand the spirit of the law, listen to both sides evidence, and then make a decision.
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Yes, that's pretty fair.

I have some qualms about 18C on freedom of speech grounds but I think there is a need to prevent obviously nasty racism or hate speech, and the exemptions under 18D provides fair protection for reasonable comment, so I don't think there is any need to modify or repeal 18C.
 
Ves said:
Ignoring the debate about whether it is a criminal or not your point isn't really relevant to 18C or 18D (don't ignore that section because it's important).



The problem is that calling someone a N****** or a "Choge" or a "coon" would not give a court of law any basis for upholding a civil judgment against an individual. It'd get thrown out instantly.

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately hyperbolic or you don't understand how 18C works?

My only suggestion is to go and read the current case law.

You'd have to say something with a lot of gravity for it to lose an 18C case.

The high profile Andrew Bolt case for example: he'd probably have lost a Defamation case too. But as I understand it the plaintiff went down the 18C path.
Click to expand...

Okay I concede the pointvregarding 18c. Appreciatecthe education.

I still stand hy my broader point regarding PC however; I will have to xome up with another analogy when I have some time.
 
Thanks, Ves, for your input, but we went through this at Christmas time here in Melbourne.
I don't agree with their social engineering and as stated -

Pervasive step toward Orwell's totalitarian Newspeak.

Hate speech is a term used to silence people and stop debate.

Offend and insult are terms that should go.

The act was set up in 1975 and again in 1996.

Who are these people that are suppose to know better than us.
We must just remain silent while a handful of activists and leftist elites decide all this for us. After all, they know so much better than the common man.
They are so wise and so knowledgeable.

Rubbish.

If they so despise democracy, so hate freedom of speech, and so deplore the common man, then they should move to North Korea or somewhere more fitting of their tyrannical ideology.
 
Tink said:
Thanks, Ves, for your input, but we went through this at Christmas time here in Melbourne.
I don't agree with their social engineering and as stated -

Pervasive step toward Orwell's totalitarian Newspeak.

Hate speech is a term used to silence people and stop debate.

Offend and insult are terms that should go.

The act was set up in 1975 and again in 1996.

Who are these people that are suppose to know better than us.
We must just remain silent while a handful of activists and leftist elites decide all this for us. After all, they know so much better than the common man.
They are so wise and so knowledgeable.

Rubbish.

If they so despise democracy, so hate freedom of speech, and so deplore the common man, then they should move to North Korea or somewhere more fitting of their tyrannical ideology.
Click to expand...

Lol.:xyxthumbs
 
Ellen DeGeneres is racist ... no wait she was having a LARFFFFF ...

ellen-usain.png
 
Tisme said:
Harry Connick Jnr is the superior goto white man on all things Black + Racism....... just ask Daryl Somers.
Click to expand...

That would be Harry the Hypocrite?

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9vtOt5mNEZE[/video]
 
Why Political Correctness And Free Speech Can't Co-Exist

http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/why-political-correctness-and-free-speech-cant-co-exist/

&

Mad March Of Political Correctness

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ical-correctness/story-e6frgd0x-1226106958791

&

Another move to insanity.

BBC Says Opposing Shariah Law Is 'Islamophobic'
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/19/bbc-refusing-shariah-law-islamophobia/

Again has the west lost its free speech, After doing some research it is a bad trend we are following.
 
sr20de said:
Why Political Correctness And Free Speech Can't Co-Exist

http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/why-political-correctness-and-free-speech-cant-co-exist/

&

Mad March Of Political Correctness

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ical-correctness/story-e6frgd0x-1226106958791

&

Another move to insanity.

BBC Says Opposing Shariah Law Is 'Islamophobic'
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/19/bbc-refusing-shariah-law-islamophobia/

Again has the west lost its free speech, After doing some research it is a bad trend we are following.
Click to expand...

I thought it's just customary, in any country, to never speak your mind to everyone. Hence, stick to "how's the kids", the weather, sports and maybe petrol prices and holiday spots.

That's not about your speech being restricted, that's just being polite and sociable.

So calling someone names, tell them to get screwed, tell them to abandon their religion and adopt yours, tell them to not cover up but show lots of skin... that's a screwy sense of freedom. Freedom don't just revolves around you or your beliefs - not when that sense of freedom oppress other people for no good safety/security reason.

As Chief Boggo said, life is not about having every barbarians and savages live and eat and dress and enjoy the same thing as you. So let it go. :D
 

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