The West has lost its freedom of speech

[Value Collector]

All it would indicate is that the "bogan" has bad manners. You are trying to read too much into these things. When I went to school I had a friend named Murphy. We used to call him Spud. He wore the appellation as a badge of honour.

That's called a nickname, that's a very different thing.

 

[SirRumpole]

Why is it that you think my friend was singled out for the verbal attack?

Because bogans are stupid and don't stop to enquire what religion people are.

As I said if he told your friend to go home after he knew your friend was an atheist, that would be a racial attack.

Anyway, this discussion is getting rather boring. I would rather people didn't make stupid assumptions about others like bogans do, but they do. Are you going to throw them in gaol for that ?

 

[Value Collector]

From the 6minute mark on this video there is an interesting discussion on the fuzzy lines of racism in regards islamaphobia.

Keep in mind these are atheists taking who hate religion, but can see the racism sometimes involved in anti Muslim speech

 

[Value Collector]

Because bogans are stupid and don't stop to enquire what religion people are.

I wonder how many white people he had abused, and told to go home. Your justifications are pretty un convincing.

I find it hard to believe you don't think some people attack religion because of xenophobia

 

[Tisme]

Race is a social construct. There are many more factors to a race than religious servitude. If you travel around UAE you would see there is a definite divide between the Paki Muslims and the Arab Muslims; they themselves see each other as different races.

 

[Calliope]

That's called a nickname, that's a very different thing.

Yes it was only by chance we didn't call him Mick

"mick noun
an insulting word for an Irish person"

Here's a handy list for those on the lookout for offensive terms. It is good to know that i can take offence if someone calls me "whitey".

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/...-people-according-to-nationality-or-ethnicity

 

[SirRumpole]

I find it hard to believe you don't think some people attack religion because of xenophobia

Like some religions attack other people because of xenophobia ?

 

[SirRumpole]

Race is a social construct. There are many more factors to a race than religious servitude. If you travel around UAE you would see there is a definite divide between the Paki Muslims and the Arab Muslims; they themselves see each other as different races.

Yes, and as I pointed out before the hutu and tutsi in Rwanda.

Very little genetic differences , no religious differences, yet they killed each other en masse.

They saw themselves as different races too.

We all have xenophobia in us, its a feature of the human race not any particular sub-race.

 

[pixel]

Yes it was only by chance we didn't call him Mick

"mick noun
an insulting word for an Irish person"

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/...-people-according-to-nationality-or-ethnicity

what a load of croc!
I've got lots of friends named Mick, some may be Irish, others are definitely not.
Were their parents racist when they christened them? Or am I when I talk to them by name?

In a sports league, we had two Mick Murphy's. To distinguish father from son, the old man was Spud.

Some people are grown up about such things. Most of the time, it's outsiders that concoct such links, looking for possible interpretations that COULD be taken in a negative way. And in their eagerness to do some perceived good, they persuade a minority's minority to claim being offended.
Seems they've got too much spare time on their hands. Get a job and get real!

 

[Value Collector]

Like some religions attack other people because of xenophobia ?

Offcourse, and we should recognise it and resist it.

 

[Calliope]

what a load of croc!

Are you taking the mickey out of the Macmillan Dictionary?

 

[Bintang]

So if my friend was Indian, and the bogan said "go home curry muncher", is that a racial attack or an honest attack against the eating of spicy foods?

What about calling an islander a coconut?

Meanwhile muslims call us non-muslims 'kaffir' and they do so with impunity.
Long live double standards and hypocrisy.

 

[Julia]

As stupid as the bogan's statement was I don't think it was racial. If the bogan knew your friend was atheist and said "go home you Turkish ****", that would be racial.

The bogan was attacking an ideology not your friends race.

I think the bogan is probably either racist or xenophobic, or both, It would be the wrong thing to do even if my friend happened to be Muslim, as it happens though he isn't.

I using it as an example of where someone is referencing a religion, but where the motivation is more likely to be tied to xenophobia and racism.

I agree with Rumpole that you're making an assumption here. If we consider why there is this increasing bad feeling toward Muslims, isn't it because in the terrorist attacks the assailants have clearly referenced their religion? I don't see why you would instead assume that it's their skin colour which, as Rumpole has pointed out, varies across the many disciples of the religion.

Do you not agree that there is a group out there who protest against Mosques etc, where deep down the real problem they have are not theological, but more of a hatred for multiculturalism or a hatred of things that are not Anglo Australian.

Perhaps a small proportion, but my guess is that it's more a reaction of anger and fear in response to the behaviour which is stated to be on behalf of their prophet.

I'm a bit tired of the label 'racist' being plastered on anyone who is simply objecting to bad behaviour, or actions which interfere with the capacity of others to live a peaceful life.
Terror is supposed to - and does - inspire fear and anxiety. No matter who does it. Might be hard right extremists. So happens currently it seems to be emanating from Muslims. So hardly surprising that the consequent anger and fear will be directed toward anyone perceived to be 'on that side'.

I am all for speaking out against religion, and I am a patriotic Australian, but I am against xenophobia and racism.

Might be good to just be sure that you're not seeing racism where it is actually something else, often nothing more complicated than ignorance and general life dissatisfaction finding an outlet in stupid rudeness.

what a load of croc!
I've got lots of friends named Mick, some may be Irish, others are definitely not.
Were their parents racist when they christened them? Or am I when I talk to them by name?

In a sports league, we had two Mick Murphy's. To distinguish father from son, the old man was Spud.

Some people are grown up about such things. Most of the time, it's outsiders that concoct such links, looking for possible interpretations that COULD be taken in a negative way. And in their eagerness to do some perceived good, they persuade a minority's minority to claim being offended.
Seems they've got too much spare time on their hands. Get a job and get real!

Agree. We have enough real triggers for social unrest: let's not go looking for victimisation and discrimination.

 

[SirRumpole]

Perhaps a small proportion, but my guess is that it's more a reaction of anger and fear in response to the behaviour which is stated to be on behalf of their prophet.

Nailed it. Muslims have been living in this country a long time, but it seems that the anti-Muslim feelings have only surfaced when we had radical clerics calling for jihad against the West and the terrorist attacks started.

Now, people can make valid claims about Western policy in the Middle East creating power vacuums for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism etc, but when wars are bought to our front door there is likely to be ill feeling towards those perceived to be "on the other side" (as Julia said). Anti Muslim feeling is more about fear of fundamentalism and attack than it is about racism.

Japanese were the enemy in WWII and they were rounded up and interned, whether they were a real threat or not. Same with Germans in Britain.

I'm not saying the same should happen now. I'm sure there are moderate Muslims (probably most of them) that just want a quiet life, but in their midst are those who want the spread of their religion into Western society and are prepared to achieve it by force.

It's the job of the moderates to de-radicalise their religion and help us fight terrorism. If they don't then our suspicion of them and antagonism towards them will increase, maybe justifiably.

 

[Tisme]

Nailed it. Muslims have been living in this country a long time, but it seems that the anti-Muslim feelings have only surfaced when we had radical clerics calling for jihad against the West and the terrorist attacks started.

.

It probably surfaced with the growth of the internet. I would hazard a guess there is more hatred amongst peer groups on twitter, facebook and discussion boards than there is for Islamics. Who knows how many of those shootings in the USA and elsewhere aren't because of internet rage.

In the nineties, people would be so inflamed by trolls they would threaten to "come around" and perform some kind of brutality on those who teased and taunted. Chances are the same unfulfilled vengeance is fueling naïve minds into joining action groups?

 

[overhang]

I'm a bit tired of the label 'racist' being plastered on anyone who is simply objecting to bad behaviour, or actions which interfere with the capacity of others to live a peaceful life.
Terror is supposed to - and does - inspire fear and anxiety. No matter who does it. Might be hard right extremists. So happens currently it seems to be emanating from Muslims. So hardly surprising that the consequent anger and fear will be directed toward anyone perceived to be 'on that side'.

Yes I agree it's frustrating discussing this topic as you are either labeled as racist/xenophobic or political correct/Muslim apologist. It's the same with the climate change debate, you're either labeled a denier or a warmest/alarmist.

 

[Bintang]

It's the job of the moderates to de-radicalise their religion and help us fight terrorism.

This is impossible and it is naïve to think otherwise because as you further opine:

…… in their midst are those who want the spread of their religion into Western society and are prepared to achieve it by force.

If you would rather not take notice of what I am saying then perhaps the words of Ayatollah Khomeini might be of more interest:

“Those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless”

I think there a many contributing to this forum discussion who know nothing of Islam.

 

[SirRumpole]

If you would rather not take notice of what I am saying then perhaps the words of Ayatollah Khomeini might be of more interest:

“Those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless”

I think there a many contributing to this forum discussion who know nothing of Islam.

And why should we (or Muslims) believe the late Ayatollah Khomeni more than any other Muslim cleric ? He was an extremist with his own country to enslave. There is no overriding interpretation of the Koran in the world, it's what individual Muslim clerics want to believe and teach. Some take and extremist view , others a moderate view.

Practically speaking, where is the Islamic jihadist's power base ? The superpowers all hate them. The Saudis probably support them but they don't want to get the West offside. They are mainly running on captured weapons and wealth and if their ammunition supply can be dried up they are dead ducks.

They are a minority in most Western countries and although they can do some damage, their chances of overall victory are minimal. If they do take over any substantial cities then they have to run those cities and by doing so they make themselves targets. They have to keep hiding because if they come into the open the drones will get them.

Even if they do want world domination, their chances of getting it are not good with the weapons lined up against them.

 

[Bintang]

I'm a bit tired of the label 'racist' being plastered on anyone who is simply objecting to bad behaviour, or actions which interfere with the capacity of others to live a peaceful life.
Terror is supposed to - and does - inspire fear and anxiety. No matter who does it. Might be hard right extremists. So happens currently it seems to be emanating from Muslims. So hardly surprising that the consequent anger and fear will be directed toward anyone perceived to be 'on that side'

What bothers me more is that we spend so much time on introspection and criticising each other because we are doing exactly what the Jihadists want us to do.

It is one of the iron-clad rules of Jihad that muslims must always play the victim even when they are responsible for initiating conflict. The objective is to make non-muslims (the kaffirs) think that the conflict is their own fault. Once kaffirs have accepted the blame they will turn their criticism towards each other.

And that is exactly what is happening in this forum. We don’t fully discuss the behavior of muslims towards us kaffirs because we are too constrained by political correctness and are bound up criticizing ourselves. At the same time we allow aspects of our freedom of speech to be subtly eroded which also plays right into the hands of the Jihadists.
There is no greater enemy of Islam than freedom of speech.

 

[Bintang]

There is no overriding interpretation of the Koran in the world, it's what individual Muslim clerics want to believe and teach. Some take and extremist view , others a moderate view.

Of course, because The Koran (which actually makes up only about 18% of Islamic doctrine and rather less if the mountain of repetition it contains was taken out) teaches two behaviours – one peaceful and the other violent according to circumstances and in the same manner in which Mohammed behaved , viz
“When you are not in a position of power, be quiet and do not draw attention to yourself. Use the time to build up strength and numbers until you become powerful enough to begin Jihad.“