The West has lost its freedom of speech

[SirRumpole]

Also, curry is a food, not a race, but calling an Indian a "Curry muncher" is a racial slur. So just because you don't mention a race, doesn't mean your not making judgements based on race.

I happen to like curries, so I could fall into the above description, and I'm not Indian. I could see how the term could be used as a form of endearment.

I think we have got to a point of hypersensitivity where everyone is on edge about what they can and can't say and we really don't know how to behave naturally. This is a great pity because we used to be a laid back and relaxed country, now all we seem to do is worry that others may think we are racist just because of a few slang terms thrown around without any intention to disparage others.

 

[Tink]

Well said, Rumpole.
I still remember my father laughing at those shows they took off, and I am allowed to talk. Everything was taken lightly, and in fun.

If you think people are born good, as you say, VC, then we don't need these rules to tell us how to speak and how to react, you are contradicting yourself.

We grew up with respect for all, no matter who they were, and same goes for this generation, our children.
I agree with you, Calliope, there was no swearing in our home, and I still dislike it.

The biggest division in society is PC, look no further, and I am all for the change of 18C which was amended in 1995 (I think).

We have all become way too precious with any comment or criticism, and people are quick to yell out racist, sexist, bigot, and whatever else to silence you.
I actually think it has become worse.

Julia, the only reason I brought up that documentary is because we didn't know that they were pedophiles, and as you have said yourself, try ringing with a different opinion, they say, thanks, we will take that as a comment.
At the end of that show, they were PC enough to add a foot note, as others have mentioned, the untouchables, which I think is wrong when we should all be in this country together giving our thoughts, not howled down and strangled in silence.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23929&page=76

Creating a division in society, as with Andrew Bolt, giving an opinion, shouldn't end up with legal proceedings.

I remember when Adam Goodes came forward about that 13 year old girl. They were at the football for goodness sake.
Just silly.

A lot of good comments in here.

 

[Value Collector]

I happen to like curries, so I could fall into the above description, and I'm not Indian. I could see how the term could be used as a form of endearment.

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My point is, that race does not have to be explicitly mention for it to be clear that it's racism informing peoples actions.

For example, If you asked a friend how his work life was, and he said "Good, except my boss has higher a bunch of curry munchers" you would know exactly what hi meant, straight away you would picture in you mind his work place with a few new Indian employees.

Rum pole, certainly you can understand that racism can show it's head through attacks on the culture that's associated with the race that is the victim of the hate.

I think we have got to a point of hypersensitivity where everyone is on edge about what they can and can't say and we really don't know how to behave naturally. This is a great pity because we used to be a laid back and relaxed country, now all we seem to do is worry that others may think we are racist just because of a few slang terms thrown around without any intention to disparage others

It's the intention that is the most important part to me.

While I do think the vast majority of people are good people, we humans do have some damaging traits that are left over from our evolutionary past, for example the tendency to fall back on tribalism, which can result in xenophobia and racism, and also a tendency for males to have violent out bursts.

when we recognise these things, they should be brought to the persons attention, I am certainly not immune, I have fallen into racist thoughts, and it's something you have to work on.

I have had conversations about religion with people, and as the conversation progresses with some people, it can become clear that the underlying problem the person has with the religion we are discussing is based on xenophobia.

 

[Value Collector]

If you think people are born good, as you say, VC, then we don't need these rules to tell us how to speak and how to react, you are contradicting yourself.

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I said the majority of people are good.

But even good people can say and do things that are a bit off, such as holding opinions which are racist. Take the older generation for example. My grandmother is lovely, charitable and a really decent person, But she can be racist sometimes, she doesn't like to go to the city anymore because she thinks there is to many Asians.

Now I put that down to her generation, she didn't grow up with exposure to different cultures, and her love of Anglo Australian culture (tribalism) results in her being xenophobic. If she was younger I might spend more time trying to sway her opinion to try and get her to embrace other cultures, but she's not got long left.

We grew up with respect for all, no matter who they were, and same goes for this generation, our children.
I agree with you, Calliope, there was no swearing in our home, and I still dislike it.

Talk to some of the older generation and you will find a much large percentage of them do not have respect for all.

The biggest division in society is PC, look no further,

Really? That's the biggest problem?

 

[SirRumpole]

Rum pole, certainly you can understand that racism can show it's head through attacks on the culture that's associated with the race that is the victim of the hate.

Yes, Val ue Collector, I can see that can happen when it applies to a single race or culture, but your point is irrelevant when it comes to the original point I made which was in reference to Islam, which can encompass any number of races and cultures.

So are you really saying that if I said "Islam is a silly religion", I would automatically be racially villifying every race who happened to have Muslims as members of that race and I should therefore come under the auspices of the Racial Discrimination Act ?

 

[Tisme]

Yes, Val ue Collector, I can see that can happen when it applies to a single race or culture, but your point is irrelevant when it comes to the original point I made which was in reference to Islam, which can encompass any number of races and cultures.

So are you really saying that if I said "Islam is a silly religion", I would automatically be racially villifying every race who happened to have Muslims as members of that race and I should therefore come under the auspices of the Racial Discrimination Act ?

Agree with you Rumpole.

Calling out someone for being a particular religion is not racism, its an assault on a mental condition IMO.

It's like me calling you out as an ALP supporter as if you should take offense or be defensive (well ok you should be ashamed of yourself after all the coaching I have provided from here in the neutral zone), but nonetheless politics, sex and religion are not traditionally spoken about in polite company, so therefore its should be manhandled and spoken about openly in impolite company like ours..... n'est pas?

How far up the ladder does racism stop? If Martians invaded would we expect them to have a constitution that says that the human species should not be vilified?

 

[SirRumpole]

It's like me calling you out as an ALP supporter as if you should take offense or be defensive (well ok you should be ashamed of yourself after all the coaching I have provided from here in the neutral zone)

Not defensive or offended at all old boy, I am a Labor supporter (Federally) at this point in time because the Abbott government has stuffed so many things up. Just as Labor probably deserved to be thrown out, so do the LNP for their incompetence.

I acknowledge that former Liberal governments, State and Federal did a good job up to a point as are some State Liberal governments.

How's that for neutrality ?

 

[Tisme]

Just incase we thought free speech was the sole domain of the French, lets consider the Jewish news rag, "The Announcer" and it's coverage of the Hebdo march:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ultr...ale-world-leaders-out-of-charlie-hebdo-march/

 

[Tisme]

Not defensive or offended at all old boy, I am a Labor supporter (Federally) at this point in time because the Abbott government has stuffed so many things up. Just as Labor probably deserved to be thrown out, so do the LNP for their incompetence.

I acknowledge that former Liberal governments, State and Federal did a good job up to a point as are some State Liberal governments.

How's that for neutrality ?

Jebus Crypes, Rumpole I wouldn't have posted what I did If I had known you'd react like that !!!! My apologies

 

[Calliope]

We grew up with respect for all, no matter who they were, and same goes for this generation, our children.
I agree with you, Calliope, there was no swearing in our home, and I still dislike it.

"When people talk about political correctness, the only element of any value is good manners".
Paul Johnson

Tink, i may be old fashoned, but I think the most important attribute we can pass on to our children is good manners, and i have a feeling that VC would agree with this.

 

[SirRumpole]

Jebus Crypes, Rumpole I wouldn't have posted what I did If I had known you'd react like that !!!! My apologies

Your freedom of speech is respected, your use of gratuitous insults will be avenged.

 

[Calliope]

 

[Value Collector]

So are you really saying that if I said "Islam is a silly religion", I would automatically be racially villifying every race who happened to have Muslims as members of that race and I should therefore come under the auspices of the Racial Discrimination Act ?

If all you said was that "Islam is a silly religion" then no, thats not racially vilifying.

But saying something like, "Islam is a silly religion, therefore We shouldn't let Arabs into Australia" is different

I have a friend who is Turkish, he is actually an atheist, However A few years back A bogan screamed from a car "go home you F'n Muslim C", now in that situation, trying to hide behind "Muslim is not a race" doesn't fly, because the judgement is clearly racial.

 

[Julia]

I have a friend who is Turkish, he is actually an atheist, However A few years back A bogan screamed from a car "go home you F'n Muslim C", now in that situation, trying to hide behind "Muslim is not a race" doesn't fly, because the judgement is clearly racial.

You are saying this because the 'bogan' made an assumption about the religion involved?

 

[SirRumpole]

I have a friend who is Turkish, he is actually an atheist, However A few years back A bogan screamed from a car "go home you F'n Muslim C", now in that situation, trying to hide behind "Muslim is not a race" doesn't fly, because the judgement is clearly racial.

As stupid as the bogan's statement was I don't think it was racial. If the bogan knew your friend was atheist and said "go home you Turkish ****", that would be racial.

The bogan was attacking an ideology not your friends race.

 

[Value Collector]

You are saying this because the 'bogan' made an assumption about the religion involved?

I think the bogan is probably either racist or xenophobic, or both, It would be the wrong thing to do even if my friend happened to be Muslim, as it happens though he isn't.

I using it as an example of where someone is referencing a religion, but where the motivation is more likely to be tied to xenophobia and racism.

Do you not agree that there is a group out there who protest against Mosques etc, where deep down the real problem they have are not theological, but more of a hatred for multiculturalism or a hatred of things that are not Anglo Australian.

I am all for speaking out against religion, and I am a patriotic Australian, but I am against xenophobia and racism.

I will fight for Australia, but when patriotism turns to racism and xenophobia such as the Cronulla riots or my mate being told to go home because he looks middle eastern, it sickens me.

In the same breath, I dislike religion, for all the reasons I have mentioned on the other thread, I think religion disserves to be shown for what it is, a bunch of disgusting lies. However in the debate against religion, there are some who attack Islam for the wrong reasons, I am against that, and It's not helpful to the cause.

 

[Value Collector]

As stupid as the bogan's statement was I don't think it was racial. If the bogan knew your friend was atheist and said "go home you Turkish ****", that would be racial.

The bogan was attacking an ideology not your friends race.

So if my friend was Indian, and the bogan said "go home curry muncher", is that a racial attack or an honest attack against the eating of spicy foods?

What about calling an islander a coconut?

 

[SirRumpole]

So if my friend was Indian, and the bogan said "go home curry muncher", is that a racial attack or an honest attack against the eating of spicy foods?

What about calling an islander a coconut?

A very tenuous comparison between "curry muncher" and Muslim.

You really haven't got what I said before, "curry muncher" or "coconut" refers to a single race or culture, Muslim refers to an ideology that can embrace any race or culture (and certainly wants to). People can choose their ideology but not their race.

While "go home you Muslim ****" may be bigoted, it is not an attack on a race and therefore does not qualify under the Racial Discrimination Act.

And furthermore "curry muncher" or coconut" is a made up expression that may be perceived as derogatory in some circumstances. Calling someone a Muslim is a simple statement of fact. The bogan you cited simply assumed that your friend was Muslim. He made a mistake. It's not an act of racial discrimination.

If you want religion included under the Racial Discrimination Act and thereby to subject people (like yourself) to punishment for villifying religion, then please say so.

 

[Calliope]

So if my friend was Indian, and the bogan said "go home curry muncher", is that a racial attack or an honest attack against the eating of spicy foods?

What about calling an islander a coconut?

All it would indicate is that the "bogan" has bad manners. You are trying to read too much into these things. When I went to school I had a friend named Murphy. We used to call him Spud. He wore the appellation as a badge of honour.

 

[Value Collector]

While "go home you Muslim ****" may be bigoted, it is not an attack on a race and therefore does not qualify under the Racial Discrimination Act.

.

Why is it that you think my friend was singled out for the verbal attack?

And furthermore "curry muncher" or coconut" is a made up expression that may be perceived as derogatory in some circumstances. Calling someone a Muslim is a simple statement of fact. The bogan you cited simply assumed that your friend was Muslim. He made a mistake. It's not an act of racial discrimination.

I guess you can say whether some one eats curry or not is just a statement of fact. the bogan cited simply assumed my friend ate curry. he made a mistake. It's not an act of racial discrimination.

If you want religion included under the Racial Discrimination Act and thereby to subject people (like yourself) to punishment for villifying religion, then please say so

I am against discrimination based on religion also, as I have said I believe in religious freedom.

But a rational conversation about religious doctrines is different to xenophobia.