The Voice

[rederob]

A letter the voice could write to bureaucrats once it is implemented:

There are so many errors in the letter it's hardly worth replying to.
So let's just take one, which is the second sentence. This statement is false:

"That right is not limited to making representations about matters that have a direct or special or substantial or different effect on ATSI people."​

Accordingly, most of the rest is scaremongering BS.
Why people who should know better post this stuff is beyond me.

 

[Sean K]

Re conservatives that are involved, actually that's not the case, very disingenuous by any measure and a throw back to the 40's and 50's mentality.

You have repeatedly put up false examples in a concerted fear campaign that have absolutely no basis.

The letter above is a shocker, still carry on.

It's lawyers who are providing the examples including the above letter.

 

[rederob]

The Left and Aboriginal elites haven't been able to win over conservatives with their yes vote arguments,

Why do they need to be "won over"? These people are often so far removed from ATSI issues they could not care.

largely because it's race based, anti-democratic and there's no facts on how it's going to play out,

Well here we go again... that's just ignorance coming to the fore.
Maybe if @Sean K read some of the posts that put these lies to bed he might stop posting them time and again.

If this isn't the best reason for a NO vote, I don't know what is.

FYI Marcia Langton doesn't have a say in who gets a welcome to country. I have organised them with local representatives in the past and they have always been keen to participate. I doubt the Voice will change that.

It's a bit ironic that many who will vote no actually understand that our FN peoples suffer significant disadvantage and support efforts to close the gap. But when FN people actually go through a rigorous consultation process themselves and come up with how they believe they can do even better, they discover that support was superficial.

To vote no and not be of ATSI descent it seems you have to find an excuse that fits your worldview rather than consider what it means to those who want to achieve a standard of health and living that should be accessible to everyone.

 

[SirRumpole]

The reasoning for including the executive are valid happy to debate that.

Sure, if the Voice gets up then they should be able to put submissions to the relevant Minister, that's the way it happens with other groups who have an interest in legislation.

 

[Sean K]

Does The Voice contravene The Racial Discrimination Act of 1975 by having a race based body inserted into the constitution that has rights over the rest of Australians of a non-Indigenous race?

 

[SirRumpole]

Does The Voice contravene The Racial Discrimination Act of 1975 by having a race based body inserted into the constitution that has rights over the rest of Australians of a non-Indigenous race?

View attachment 155534

Maybe the first High Court case.

 

[rederob]

Does The Voice contravene The Racial Discrimination Act of 1975 by having a race based body inserted into the constitution that has rights over the rest of Australians of a non-Indigenous race?

This furphy has been many times debunked. No rights are added nor changed should the referendum get up.
The referendum question is about "recognition," not race nor rights.
And it establishes a Voice for FN peoples that allows for representations to be made to decision makers.

Our present HRC, Lorraine Finlay - a dyed in the wool Liberal - made a serious error with her views on the referendum question's wording according to her many predecessors and seems not to have understood how fundamental principles of fairness and equality can be achieved.

 

[SirRumpole]

This furphy has been many times debunked. No rights are added nor changed should the referendum get up.
The referendum question is about "recognition," not race nor rights.
And it establishes a Voice for FN peoples that allows for representations to be made to decision makers.

Our present HRC, Lorraine Finlay - a dyed in the wool Liberal - made a serious error with her views on the referendum question's wording according to her many predecessors and seems not to have understood how fundamental principles of fairness and equality can be achieved.

No rights are added or changed ?

Anyone can see that having a Constitutionally enshrined body to represent a particular group IS an addition of rights. Just admit that and your argument will be more honest.

You can then argue that the Voice is deserved to right previous wrongs and people can disagree or not.

 

[rederob]

No rights are added or changed ?

Anyone can see that having a Constitutionally enshrined body to represent a particular group IS an addition of rights. Just admit that and your argument will be more honest.

That's so far removed from reality that it's hard to contemplate how it could be more wrong.
You could add a hundred lobby groups to the Constitution and say they can make representations, but as they could before they are not conferred with anything different.
Your problem here is in not actually being able to articulate what right is additional.

Stop suggesting I have a problem in honesty when it's your incompetence which is the problem.

You can then argue that the Voice is deserved to right previous wrongs and people can disagree or not.

But that is not what the Voice is about.
When will you take the time to read and understand the copious material available that explains the Voice?

 

[SirRumpole]

Your problem here is in not actually being able to articulate what right is additional.

L e t m e s a y i t v e r y s l o w l y so y o u m a y be c a n c o m p r e h e n d.

I t w i l l b e a RIGHT endowed on ONE group of people enforced by the Constitution to be represented by a body representing ONLY them which no other group in society has.

Is that clear enough for you ?

Please don't continue to demean our intelligence by arguing otherwise.

ut that is not what the Voice is about.
When will you take the time to read and understand the copious material available that explains the Voice?

It has been your continual argument in this thread that the Voice is compensation for past events.!

 

[rederob]

L e t m e s a y i t v e r y s l o w l y so y o u m a y be c a n c o m p r e h e n d.

I t w i l l b e a RIGHT endowed on ONE group of people enforced by the Constitution to be represented by a body representing ONLY them which no other group in society has.

Is that clear enough for you ?

That is not a right.
As I said, you need to be able to articulate the nature of the right. In your case, what are you suggesting is the right, and how is it additional?
Can you do that?

Please don't continue to demean our intelligence by arguing otherwise.

You have shot yourself in the foot so many times the hospital is bleeding.

It has been your continual argument in this thread that the Voice is compensation for past events.!

Completely false assertion.
I have outlined so many times in this thread what the Voice sets out to achieve, and at no time have I ever said it's "compensation".

 

[SirRumpole]

As I said, you need to be able to articulate the nature of the right. In your case, what are you suggesting is the right, and how is it additional?

I did that in the previous post, so if you can't comprehend that, I'm sorry for you.

It has been your continual argument in this thread that the Voice is compensation for past events.!

rederob: Completely false assertion.

I brought up the lack of services in my area and your response was that as I was not "disposessed' , I did not deserve a 'Voice'.

Frankly, I think you have lost it.

You persist with false arguments and distractions.

I think you mean well but are arguing on an emotional basis.

Time to stop responding to you I think.

 

[rederob]

I did that in the previous post, so if you can't comprehend that, I'm sorry for you.

That is a plain and simple lie.

rederob: Completely false assertion.

I brought up the lack of services in my area and your response was that as I was not "disposessed' , I did not deserve a 'Voice'.

So where did I make the assertion you claimed?
Another lie on your part.

Frankly, I think yo have lost it.

You persist with false arguments and distractions.

I responded to all your questions and provided links where necessary.
So far you have shown an ignorance of the Voice that is astounding given the information you could access.

I think you mean well but are arguing on an emotional basis.

A complete distortion that again you cannot back up.

Time to stop responding to you I think.

Yes.
If you cannot address the points I make or substantiate the ones you make it is certainly a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Knobby22]

In Halls Creek, some of the aboriginal parents are sending their kids off at 12 to boarding schools to give them a chance. They know that going to school in the town will get them nowhere.

They are the same as us. Doing their best. Usually with less.

The sounds of children skylarking echo around Halls Creek at night. There are glimmers of hope for this troubled town

School attendance and youth crime are at crisis point in Halls Creek. But as community leaders strive for solutions, there are glimmers of hope for this troubled town.

www.abc.net.au

 

[macca]

In Halls Creek, some of the aboriginal parents are sending their kids off at 12 to boarding schools to give them a chance. They know that going to school in the town will get them nowhere.

They are the same as us. Doing their best. Usually with less.

The sounds of children skylarking echo around Halls Creek at night. There are glimmers of hope for this troubled town

School attendance and youth crime are at crisis point in Halls Creek. But as community leaders strive for solutions, there are glimmers of hope for this troubled town.

www.abc.net.au

This is why I don't think the Voice will achieve anything

There have been services available in HC for years but lack of supervision by the parents means the kids roam around and some of them cause trouble.

Until their parents embrace modern society and teach them how to live in today's world we will always have this problem.

My Elder friend of over 60 years, has been saying this for decades, "we must live in today's world just like everyone else"

Like most people I would love to see a magic cure for our Aboriginal people but all the stuff we see in the Media is focussed on a very small minority of them.

By far the majority of Aboriginal people live in cities and large towns and they live similar lives to the rest of us.

Right now we are being force fed a diet of Drama by the MSM in an effort to get people to vote Yes.

As usual, after the vote it is highly likely that all the problems in small Outback towns will disappear from MSM.

Creating Another group of people sitting in Canberra to Talk about the problems can only make it worse not better

 

[Knobby22]

This is why I don't think the Voice will achieve anything

There have been services available in HC for years but lack of supervision by the parents means the kids roam around and some of them cause trouble.

Until their parents embrace modern society and teach them how to live in today's world we will always have this problem.

My Elder friend of over 60 years, has been saying this for decades, "we must live in today's world just like everyone else"

Like most people I would love to see a magic cure for our Aboriginal people but all the stuff we see in the Media is focussed on a very small minority of them.

By far the majority of Aboriginal people live in cities and large towns and they live similar lives to the rest of us.

Right now we are being force fed a diet of Drama by the MSM in an effort to get people to vote Yes.

As usual, after the vote it is highly likely that all the problems in small Outback towns will disappear from MSM.

Creating Another group of people sitting in Canberra to Talk about the problems can only make it worse not better

It depends what is legislated.
The group of people in Canberra is a meme to oppose it. Not a reality.

I don't see why listening is a bad thing. Why it would make it worse? To me it is a sign of respect.

The problem has always been that we had little respect and approached decisions with a top down approach.

If we decide to reject this request from the aboriginal communities around Australia thwn we can expect that they will think we are still the enemy and we will see a change of attitude.

There may no longer be Welcome to Country ceremonies. We will see hardening of attitudes and we will see a resistance movement.

 

[JohnDe]

It depends what is legislated.
The group of people in Canberra is a meme to oppose it. Not a reality.

I don't see why listening is a bad thing. Why it would make it worse? To me it is a sign of respect.

The problem has always been that we had little respect and approached decisions with a top down approach.

If we decide to reject this request from the aboriginal communities around Australia thwn we can expect that they will think we are still the enemy and we will see a change of attitude.

There may no longer be Welcome to Country ceremonies. We will see hardening of attitudes and we will see a resistance movement.

How Welcome To Country was created by Ernie Dingo and mates in 1976

Ernie Dingo's dance troupe came up with the new ritual in 1976 after an awkward stand-off with Maori and Cook Islanders who refused to perform at an arts festival until they were ritually welcomed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sean K]

Any idea what the size of the Voice is going to be? The report that the Voice is based on suggested 24 persons elected from the States. But, what's the support crew? If they are going to make representations to the ATO, Defence, Dept of Mines, Education, Environment, etc, etc, they're going to need a truck load of staff behind them. Maybe hundreds. How much is it going to cost and where are their offices? Inside Parliament House? Maybe they Zoom it in...

I guess this all comes out after we vote.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don't see why listening is a bad thing. Why it would make it worse? To me it is a sign of respect.

There is nothing to stop politicians listening now.

Both Albanese and Dutton have been out in the back blocks visiting remote communities, the residents have the opportunity to voice their ideas face to face.

Why would a body based in Canberra be any better ?

 

[Knobby22]

There is nothing to stop politicians listening now.

Both Albanese and Dutton have been out in the back blocks visiting remote communities, the residents have the opportunity to voice their ideas face to face.

Why would a body based in Canberra be any better ?

The reason I heard on the radio from some of the indigenous aboriginals is that they want it in the Constitution as in their experience is they don’t get listened to.

Governments are paternalistic in their treatment and solutions.

Decisions are made and then the PM or minister turn up in the outback and do a media scrum.

Also, who says the listening will occur in Canberra? That is not what I understood.

How it works depends on the legislation and really that's what the Coalition and Labor should be concentrating on and arguing about. I understand a lot of thought has gone into how it should work so it isn't a body in Canberra.

It's disappointing that Dutton has dealt himself out of the process and also damaged himself in the process.

If this gets passed you can be sure Albanese will make this work and make himself look good.

If not, Dutton will be a wrecker and either way he will be gone well before the next election.