The Voice

[Smurf1976]

So unless you are ATSI this is not about you, and not about you feeling good about yourself.

I wonder how this will go when sometime down the track the Voice says something the political activists aligned with the governing party (of whichever persuasion) strongly disagree with?

Will they grit their teeth and accept as you point out it's not about them?

Or will they revert to colonialism and demand that government do what the city-centric activists want instead?

 

[rederob]

Everyone has the power to approach politicians or communicate with them. I have written to the PM a number of times.

That's a right, and not a power.
As you should have gathered by now that right has not done the ATSI people much good since white settlement.

ATSI people can make appointments with the appropriate Ministers if they have sufficient concerns the same as anyone else, or take their case to the media.

No they can't. They can try, but they are not likely to be successful. That's why hundreds of $millions is spent by lobby groups to get the attention of government.
As an aside, I tried this - unsuccessfully - many years ago when I outlined how government contracted agencies were defrauding the Commonwealth of $millions each year and proposed to help develop mechanisms that prevent the bleeding.
As to taking their concerns to the media, this happens every day somewhere and you can see that little to nothing ever comes of it.

The point is that they don't need a Constitutional voice to express their concerns.

You are right. They need a body that that takes their concerns seriously, prioritises them for action, and presents them directly to those in Parliament that can effect change.

If ATSI people or anyone else want to live in remote communities they have to expect less services than in the big cities, it's a matter of how much the government can afford to spend on a few people.

I hate to repeat how your understanding of this topic is so poor, but do you actually have a clue about ATSI culture, and the effects of white settlement?
ATSI people might want to live in your suburb, but despite the fact it was once their land they were dispossessed of it and - predominantly wrt to those on the mainland - mostly forced to live in enclaves that go by different names in different States/Territories, such as the DOGIT of Yarrabah.
What really dumbfounded me with your reply in this instance is this sense: "

"... they have to expect less services than in the big cities"

The role of governments at every level is to ensure as best they can that this is not the case. But compounding your ignorance is the fact that most ATSI people never had a choice as to the land they could occupy, and were largely unable to continue the lifestyles that allowed them to live off traditional lands without external support.

 

[rederob]

I wonder how this will go when sometime down the track the Voice says something the political activists aligned with the governing party (of whichever persuasion) strongly disagree with?

I am sure that with the Voice in place there would be many "activists" who could work from the grass roots upwards to air their concerns and welcome the opportunity to be involved in developing responses. That's exactly what the Voice is being proposed to achieve, although not necessarily with activists.

Will they grit their teeth and accept as you point out it's not about them?

You will have to explain how or why the Voice would act beyond its ambit. And even if it tried, it would immediately relinquish its right to representation.

Or will they revert to colonialism and demand that government do what the city-centric activists want instead?

The Voice cannot make demands so that's a very simple "no."

There seems to be a lot of long bows being drawn that fail the test of both the intent of the Voice and its proposed operation. The precise mechanics (and funding) of the Voice will always remain the purview of Parliament. Given we elect members to Parliament then if ever it is seen the Voice has lost its way then it can be reined in. On the other hand if it is felt the Voice is being neutered then we can again attempt to put in power those who restore its utility.

 

[SirRumpole]

What really dumbfounded me with your reply in this instance is this sense: "

"... they have to expect less services than in the big cities"

I live about 20 minutes drive from a major regional city.

I have no sewerage and no water laid on. I have to rely on a bore and rainwater tanks. The road into and out of my property is dirt and will probably never be sealed. Every time it rains it deteriorates into mud and potholes.

Maybe I need a Constitutional Voice too.

As pointed out by @Smurf1976 , lack of services is not unique to indigenous people.

As an aside , it seems rather paternalistic to tell ATSI people that they can have a Voice , but that a bunch of mostly white people will tell them how it should be constituted, managed and elected and what powers they should have.

If they formed their own group, like say the unions, they would have much less restrictions.

 

[rederob]

Maybe I need a Constitutional Voice too.

Were you dispossessed and made to live remotely?
Did the local council draw up Boundary Road in your nearest town in order to confine you further?
If @Smurf1976 had a relevant point he would need to show all those elements of "Closing the Gap" that also applied, such as levels and duration of incarceration, housing, educational attainment, general health and life expectancy.

As an aside , it seems rather paternalistic to tell ATSI people that they can have a Voice , but that a bunch of mostly white people will tell them how it should be constituted, managed and elected and what powers they should have.

You have got this back to front because you are wilfully ignorant.
ATSI people proposed the Voice!
People like you want to deny it to them.
ATSI people elect members to the Voice:

"The members will be elected by the Local and Regional Voices."​

Parliament determines the mechanics but the purpose would be constitutionally enshrined.

If they formed their own group, like say the unions, they would have much less restrictions.

You will never understand the issues that led to the Voice as you keep coming up with these nonsensical ideas.

 

[SirRumpole]

Were you dispossessed and made to live remotely?
Did the local council draw up Boundary Road in your nearest town in order to confine you further?
If @Smurf1976 had a relevant point he would need to show all those elements of "Closing the Gap" that also applied, such as levels and duration of incarceration, housing, educational attainment, general health and life expectancy.

You have got this back to front because you are wilfully ignorant.
ATSI people proposed the Voice!
People like you want to deny it to them.
ATSI people elect members to the Voice:

"The members will be elected by the Local and Regional Voices."​

Parliament determines the mechanics but the purpose would be constitutionally enshrined.

You will never understand the issues that led to the Voice as you keep coming up with these nonsensical ideas.

The dispossession factor is certainly relevant, but the "gap" could be caused by a number of factors including ATSI people being unwilling to accept white man's medicine or education, preferring traditional ways which only serves to isolate them from the modern world.

Unless they realise that they can't live as they did 20,000 years ago and need to accept that the world has changed they will continue to be dependent on others.

 

[SirRumpole]

People like you want to deny it to them.

No I don't.

I have no objection to an Aboriginal Voice, as I have no objection to unions or the chamber of Commerce or ACOSS or any other representative body that wants to lobby governments.

 

[SirRumpole]

Were you dispossessed and made to live remotely?

Who is forcing them to live remotely these days ?

 

[rederob]

Who is forcing them to live remotely these days ?

You are full of excuses and continue to show wilful ignorance.
Frankly I find your contributions bordering on clueless.

 

[SirRumpole]

You are full of excuses and continue to show wilful ignorance.
Frankly I find your contributions bordering on clueless.

 

[mullokintyre]

There has been of talk around about how devastating it is for the Liberals to have ken Wyatt quit the party.
According to the AFR, it seems that ken was going to do a Cheryl Kernot anyway.
I wonder if he will now turn around and join the Labour Party.
From AFR

Mick

 

[wayneL]

There has been of talk around about how devastating it is for the Liberals to have ken Wyatt quit the party.
According to the AFR, it seems that ken was going to do a Cheryl Kernot anyway.
I wonder if he will now turn around and join the Labour Party.
From AFR

View attachment 155498
Mick

Wyatt was my local member... ####ing useless. Totally invisible during the election and refused to interact with us whom he purported to represent, never once answered any of my correspondence.

Good riddance AFAIAC.

 

[IFocus]

There has been of talk around about how devastating it is for the Liberals to have ken Wyatt quit the party.
According to the AFR, it seems that ken was going to do a Cheryl Kernot anyway.
I wonder if he will now turn around and join the Labour Party.
From AFR

View attachment 155498
Mick

Wyatt was and is still likely a blue blood Liberal unfortunately as pointed out by the Victorian Liberal ex states deputy the party is currently a fringe party arguing fringe issues.

Dutton's response was extortionary political agreeing to a Voice but on his terms which at no point during his 7 meetings with Albanese were raised.

 

[rederob]

Some 250 signatures from ATSI people supporting the Voice and not a Canberran politician's name in sight.

Anyone thinking the man who boycotted Rudd's apology was going to support the Voice would be a delusional optimist. But Dutton is now running into a political storm of his own creation in trying to weaponise the Voice to attract support. Perhaps if Dutton or the Libs had actually been genuine contributors towards the intended operation of the Voice he might not have copped the backlash that is now occurring. Nor has it helped that he appears to have been caught out lying and deceiving about his consultations relating to the Voice. And that's now been topped by poor headlines from the SMH.

Unless the tide of public opinion changes quickly Dutton will prove that once in a hundred year events with him at the helm are now commonplace. Bipartisan support for this referendum question may not be needed. In fact, the more that Dutton pretends he's the person trying to bring the nation together the more likely a yes vote gets up.

 

[basilio]

Breaking down the deception behind Duttons demurral on supporting The Voice.
Not a good look

Peter Dutton and the voice: what the Liberal party has got wrong about Indigenous recognition​

We unpack and factcheck some of the key reasons the opposition leader has given for saying no to the voice

• Get our morning and afternoon news emails, free app or daily news podcast

Josh Butler
Thu 6 Apr 2023 11.00 EDTLast modified on Thu 6 Apr 2023 11.17 ED


Peter Dutton’s Liberal party has resolved to oppose the Indigenous voice to parliament, claiming it would create a “Canberra voice” with a membership of academics.
Instead, the Liberals propose symbolic recognition of Aboriginal people in the constitution, and a framework of local and regional voices set up by parliamentary legislation.

But Indigenous leaders, architects of the voice and the Labor government say that the proposals he has suggested have already been rejected by Aboriginal people. Dutton’s claims about how the voice would work have also been disputed.


Former Indigenous affairs minister Ken Wyatt quits Liberals over party’s voice opposition

Read more
So what is the reality behind the voice? We have unpacked and factchecked some of Dutton’s key claims.

Peter Dutton and the voice: what the Liberal party has got wrong about Indigenous recognition

We unpack and factcheck some of the key reasons the opposition leader has given for saying no to the voice

www.theguardian.com

 

[IFocus]

Not just his fault. If the rest of the Party disagreed, they should have told him.

Rump the problem for Dutton's position is there were many conservatives involved with drawing up the wording for the referendum.

As far as I know they all agreed it should go into the constitution this includes Curry.

This fact alone belittles any argument against the Voice and destroys Dutton's position, note Susan Ley standing next to him no further explanation required IMHO .

What they the conservatives working on the Voice wanted was for the Voice only to consulate with parliament and not including government departments.

The reasoning for including the executive are valid happy to debate that.

 

[Sean K]

A letter the voice could write to bureaucrats once it is implemented:

Dear (insert name of head of relevant department/agency/government business enterprise),

As you know, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice has been given a constitutional right by the Australian people to make representations on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

That right is not limited to making representations about matters that have a direct or special or substantial or different effect on ATSI people. The voice has a constitutional right to make representations about any matters that may relate even indirectly to ATSI people and about matters that affect all Australians.

The voice hereby advises that we will make representations to you on the following matters, at least: (insert matters relevant to the bureaucrat/department/agency/, for example, in the letter to Treasury, APRA or the RBA this will include any change in interest rate policy, bank lending and consumer credit policy or policies concerning regulation of financial services entities.

In the letter to the Dept of the Environment, it will cover every proposal for development of any mineral, mining or hydrocarbon project, or any dam or other infrastructure. In the letter to the Department of Health it will include every proposal to build, replace or renew any health facility, every proposal for expenditure on health policy, and every alteration of health policy).

For the voice’s constitutional right to make representations to have practical effect, the voice must be given advance notice by your (department/agency/body) of any proposed decision, evaluation, assessment, expenditure, policy change, or any other matter that may relate to ATSI people.

Advance notice of decisions is essential so that the voice has the opportunity to obtain information about the matter and then make a representation if appropriate. This view is reflected in the voice design principles released by the government, which provide (among other things) that:

• The voice will be able to make representations proactively.

• The voice will have its own resources to allow it to research, develop and make representations.

• The parliament and executive government should seek representations in writing from the voice early in the development of proposed laws and policies.

Accordingly, in addition to the specific matters listed above, the voice hereby requires you to give us advance notice of any proposed decision, evaluation, assessment, expenditure, policy change, or any other matter that may relate to ATSI people.

Given that the voice’s constitutional right to make representations is not limited by reference to the size or importance of a matter relating to ATSI people, you must not censor or filter matters upon which we may wish to make a representation. While we may not wish to pursue minor or trivial matters, we wish to make that judgment, not have you make it for us.

In order to give the voice adequate time to consider such matters and formulate any representations, we require you to give us notice of all relevant matters as soon as such matter arises and, in any event, at least 90 days before the decision, evaluation, assessment, expenditure, policy change, or other matter is made.

You must provide all documents, and access to all your personnel, which the voice considers appropriate to enable it to effectively make representations … this means that any material that is before a decision maker, or during the development of a policy must be made available to the voice if the voice requests it.

We put you on notice that you must not implement any such matters unless the voice has been given the time to make proper representations and discuss them with you.

The voice is in the process of hiring qualified professionals to enable it to exercise properly our right to make representations in every area of government which affects ATSI people. In the interim we will have (insert number) voice officers dedicated to monitoring matters that arise in your (department/agency/body), and we propose at least (number) will be permanently embedded in your offices to enable the voice to work effectively.

We envisage that in the fullness of time there will be a voice agency within your (department/agency/body) so that effective oversight of your policy development, policies and decision making can be carried out by the voice on a continuous and ongoing basis.

Please note that failure to comply with the requirements contained in this letter or to give proper consideration to any representations made by the voice may render any action taken by you liable to challenge by the voice in the courts, with the real risk that any decision taken will be rendered invalid until we have been given time to exercise our constitutional right to make representations.

Where we deem necessary, we will not hesitate to prosecute the constitutional guarantee which has been afforded to us by the Australian people, including seeking injunctive relief to prevent the making of a decision which affects ATSI people, to ensure that our right to make representations has been provided in a way that is both substantive and practical.

Moreover, you will be aware that s 75(v) of the Constitution provides an irremovable right to judicial review of any unlawful decision made by an officer of the commonwealth affecting that person’s interests. Please be aware that the voice takes the view that s75(v) protects it, or any other persons affected by any final decisions made by an officer of the commonwealth relating to ATSI people.

Please be advised that if your department makes a final decision which affects ATSI people and during the process of making that decision fails to give due consideration, does not provide the voice procedural fairness, or considers the representations in an unreasonable way (in other words, if you do anything which provides the basis for a constitutional writ under s 75(v) of the Constitution) we will not hesitate to commence action in the Federal Court of Australia to invalidate that decision.

We are in the process of establishing a Voice Legal Affairs unit which will be equipped to provide legal advice to staff in your (department/agency/body) so that they may better understand their legal obligations and the broader administrative law implications of our constitutional right to make representations. We will advise you when the VLA is established and look forward to working with your (department/agency/body) so that the representations of the voice are received in a way that conforms with the Constitution.

In the meantime, we suggest that your staff undergo legal training concerning the obligations on them to take due consideration of any representations by the voice which are constitutionally mandated for consideration.

Your sincerely,
(insert name)
CEO, The Voice,
Canberra

Taken out of that nasty far-Right Nazi loving Murdoch paper The Australian.

 

[Knobby22]

A letter the voice could write to bureaucrats once it is implemented:



Taken out of that nasty far-Right Nazi loving Murdoch paper The Australian.

I notice the word "could".
So it's made up propaganda. Says it all really. The Australian doing its best to produce ....
Let's not confuse fact with fiction.
This fiction is known by another name also.

 

[Sean K]

The Left and Aboriginal elites haven't been able to win over conservatives with their yes vote arguments, largely because it's race based, anti-democratic and there's no facts on how it's going to play out, so they've resorted to name calling and emotional blackmail. Now, they're blackmailing us with denying us the privilege of an Ernie Dingo Welcome Show, if we vote no.

If this isn't the best reason for a NO vote, I don't know what is.

 

[IFocus]

The Left and Aboriginal elites haven't been able to win over conservatives with their yes vote arguments, largely because it's race based, anti-democratic and there's no facts on how it's going to play out, so they've resorted to name calling and emotional blackmail. Now, they're blackmailing us with denying us the privilege of an Ernie Dingo Welcome Show, if we vote no.

If this isn't the best reason for a NO vote, I don't know what is.

Re conservatives that are involved, actually that's not the case, very disingenuous by any measure and a throw back to the 40's and 50's mentality.

You have repeatedly put up false examples in a concerted fear campaign that have absolutely no basis.

The letter above is a shocker, still carry on.