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The Voice

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Smurf1976 said:
My knowledge of the PS is state based not federal but I'm told it's much the same for both.

Key issue in the PS isn't lack of people per se but rather it's lack of the right people.

Go back a long way and the PS used to be filled with doers. Perhaps not always the most productive doers but doers nonetheless. People who did things directly and who knew their stuff. If you looked at the PS in total then the majority of its workforce were professionals, trades and other doers of some sort.

Today if you look at the PS it's very different. Pretty much the entire technical workforce is gone completely and apart from emergency services, teaching and hospitals so are most of the other frontline doers. If you can still find anyone with technical expertise, almost certainly they're doing zero work applying that expertise directly and are simply administering the contract for someone who does. They're in that job only because they were already there and it saved government paying a redundancy. Once they retire, their replacement will be someone with no technical knowledge at all such that ultimately expertise is being removed from the PS. Meanwhile the administrative workforce has massively increased, to the point of being overwhelmingly dominant in some departments.

Related to this shift is that managers are now far more easily able to "capture" an issue than was the case previously. Going back, various professions and trades would've raised all hell if someone representing them hadn't been given input. That doesn't happen when you don't have those professions and trades employed in the first place, and enables the whole thing to be controlled by one person. That leaves the door wide open to all manner of bad things happening - it's a lot easier to corrupt one individual, especially a ladder climber who's inclined to say "yes minister", than to corrupt an entire department.

Two issues with this.

First is the efficiency one. As you point out, the PS is employing a huge number of people but what's missing from those figures is that, unlike the past, today there's also an army of contractors doing the work. Your taxes are of course ultimately paying those contractors as well as the PS workers.

Second and of relevance to this subject is the loss of expertise. That leads to all sorts of silly things being done and mistakes being made that need not happen.

So my point about the PS being hollowed out isn't about numbers. It's about it having lost knowledge in a wide range of areas and replaced that with top heavy administration.

In regard to the Voice that's a bit indirect but it's of relevance to the underlying themes. :2twocents
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In our situation we have only had to deal with the PS, Centrelink, twice in recent times.
Both times very pleasantly surprised by the foresight and understanding and very quick decision making.
Perhaps we struck two blokes who were not having a bad day or as i would like to think that they were doers and doing what they were good at.
We did thank them at the time ans said how happy we were at being in and out in a very short space of time.
An elephant stamp for each of them.
 
farmerge said:
In our situation we have only had to deal with the PS, Centrelink, twice in recent times.
Both times very pleasantly surprised by the foresight and understanding and very quick decision making.
Perhaps we struck two blokes who were not having a bad day or as i would like to think that they were doers and doing what they were good at.
We did thank them at the time ans said how happy we were at being in and out in a very short space of time.
An elephant stamp for each of them.
Click to expand...
Only been in CL twice in my life. Once regarding getting Medicare card sorted, once regarding my mum passing away

Both were good experiences, the staff kind and efficient.
 
farmerge said:
In our situation we have only had to deal with the PS, Centrelink, twice in recent times.
Both times very pleasantly surprised by the foresight and understanding and very quick decision making.
Perhaps we struck two blokes who were not having a bad day or as i would like to think that they were doers and doing what they were good at.
We did thank them at the time ans said how happy we were at being in and out in a very short space of time.
An elephant stamp for each of them.
Click to expand...
It's changed imo. I've had to sort out a few people's issues that were getting screwed by centrelink over the last few decades.
The old disillusioned guard must have retired and they have the next generation through or something because they seem a million times better. I'm lucky to deal with them once a year though.

Same with services Australia. They have had an attitude readjustment over the years.
Police on the other hand seem to have got completely useless and utter prcks.
 
sptrawler said:
It is all getting a bit weird and out off control.

www.abc.net.au

Christmas shopping turns to scramble for life as Townsville mum chased, rammed by gang of children

The 48-year-old social worker feared she would be killed when she was repeatedly rammed and chased by teenagers in an allegedly stolen car through streets in Townsville.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
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Bring back the birch or better still the cat 'o nine tails.
Singapore with the use of the rattan wonder stick could also be an answer.
I know when I recently suffered in great pain it was something that I did not want to re-visit me.
Dish out pain and plenty of it to these scum and I doubt if they would be wanting a second dose.
 
sptrawler said:
It is all getting a bit weird and out off control.

www.abc.net.au

Christmas shopping turns to scramble for life as Townsville mum chased, rammed by gang of children

The 48-year-old social worker feared she would be killed when she was repeatedly rammed and chased by teenagers in an allegedly stolen car through streets in Townsville.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
Click to expand...

Yes, agreed. I hope that change is on the wind.

After the voice, disaffected voters are ready to shatter political convention​
​
The old rules of politics are falling apart. The electorate is more temperamental, divided and volatile. The troubles of the Albanese government have two sources – its own mistakes and the fracturing of our political culture into subcultures.​
​
The voice referendum reveals the erosion of our common purpose. The internal tension over the Israel-Hamas war is another prime exhibit. The central disorganising principle is the hostility between the public and elites (left or right) and the public’s distrust of institutional political power.​


After the voice, disaffected voters are ready to shatter political convention

We are all slaves to conventional wisdom. The risk in politics is that conventional wisdom is being applied to the fate of the Albanese government when the conventional is dying. The dominant theme in our politics today is fracture – the established order is under assault.

The old rules of politics are falling apart. The electorate is more temperamental, divided and volatile. The troubles of the Albanese government have two sources – its own mistakes and the fracturing of our political culture into subcultures.

The voice referendum reveals the erosion of our common purpose. The internal tension over the Israel-Hamas war is another prime exhibit. The central disorganising principle is the hostility between the public and elites (left or right) and the public’s distrust of institutional political power.

Interviewed by The Australian, the director of RedBridge polling group, Kosmos Samaras, refers to his agency’s analysis of the voice result and its core finding that the Yes vote lost in the middle and outer suburbs of our capital cities – moving beyond the 10km range from the centre – where 7.2 million adult Australians or 40 per cent of eligible voters live.

His message: “Lose these areas badly and it becomes impossible to win an election or referendum.” Samaras says: “This 40 per cent of the electorate has a very strong feeling that it is not represented in our politics. They feel that much of what happens in our political life has little relevance for them – whether it’s the Brittany Higgins court case or other issues that bubble from the media cycle, particularly from the left of politics.

“These people feel an absence of connection with many high-profile issues. The voice was a peak episode of that. They quickly realised the voice was being pushed by people engaged in the power networks in our community. The concept of power is critical here. And people rebelled against it. What we are starting to see here is the development in Australia of the sort of schism we see in the US politics. It’s starting to become an issue.

“Labor’s problem is that, up to now, it hasn’t been talking to these people. Not only do they feel disconnection but this is where the main financial hardship and mortgage stress is located, it’s right in these areas. These people resent both right and left-wing elites who seem to be controlling the agendas in this country. They feel as though these bookends dominate everything and their response is ‘my view of the world gets completely shut out.’

“When you talk to focus groups about the Middle East and the protests, their response is always ‘Can’t people stop bringing their problems to this country’ and ‘Why are we always importing other people’s disputes?’

“These outer suburbs resent people and elites they think have a monopoly on power and access to power. And it’s these 40 per cent of Australians who will determine the next election.

“Right now, they are eating into their savings, living off their credit cards. That’s why it was so important in the first 18 months to ensure Labor got its cultural settings right. These people would say to us about the economy: ‘I don’t expect politicians to fix everything, I know this is a complicated problem, but I want them in my corner.’ But what the Albanese government did by focusing on the voice for so long was to bake-in the brand that Labor wasn’t interested in the concerns of these people.

“Labor spent the first 18 months defining themselves as a government that culturally does not connect with these people in political terms. It’s not easy to undo things once you’ve convinced people who you are.”

The RedBridge analysis on the referendum shows Australians divided by location, education and income. There were two distinct concentrations for the Yes vote: the high-density urban cores of major cities (about 15 per cent of the total vote) and remote Indigenous communities. The Yes vote was higher in communities with higher median household incomes and where a larger share of the adult population had a university degree.

But the Yes campaign became a study in elites uncomprehending how their campaign alienated the voters they needed to attract.

Samaras says it was difficult for Labor but in the end “it became a campaign all about the left-wing elite part of our country”. It was a display of power in a nation driven into multiple cultures: “They used the pillars of their society – celebrities, sponsorships, endorsements, companies supporting the voice. They ran a campaign that was tailor-made for themselves using their own social networks.

“It had nothing to do with people in the outer suburbs. So these people turned up and voted no.”

For Samaras, the Albanese government needs to move quickly: “It needs to pivot drastically to an economic narrative that talks to these outer suburban areas. But Labor is going to be pulled from pillar to post. I mean, talking about the Labor Party in general, a majority of the people who work for the Labor Party, they don’t live among these people in the outer suburban areas. The staffers don’t, they don’t live in these areas.”

At the 1949 election that began the Menzies era, 96 per cent of votes cast were for the major parties. At last year’s federal election this figure had fallen to 68.3 per cent. It means one-third of the electorate is choosing a primary vote outside the major parties. This is a long-run and pervasive trend – a fractured culture is creating a fractured politics.

“At the last election 5.6 million Australians voted for something other than the major parties,” Samaras says. “I think that will be well over six million at the next election. The people are waiting, they’re looking for an alternative.

“There will be more pressure on the major parties. The concept of a safe seat is starting to die. On the Labor side last election Fowler was the canary in the coalmine – it’s not an exception, it’s what’s coming.”

The seat of Fowler in Sydney’s southwest, previously a safe Labor seat, was won by independent Dai Le, with Samaras saying: “You had someone who was respected, who came from these communities, who didn’t come across as an institutional political player.” Samaras says at the last election – even with a winning Labor result – the ALP primary vote plummeted in a range of once-safe ALP Melbourne seats. It’s an omen.

“A lot of seats aren’t stable any more,” he says. “As long as Anthony Albanese and Tanya Plibersek stay in parliament Labor will hold their seats, but once they leave Grayndler and Sydney will be in jeopardy of falling to the Greens.”

Samaras says a vote against the Albanese government doesn’t necessarily equate to a vote for the Peter Dutton-led Coalition. Politics doesn’t work like that any more.

“In many ways it’s a choice between bad and worse,” he says. “In these outer suburban communities people will tell you they don’t want the Labor Party but the other mob are worse.

“This applies particularly to younger people, they’re reluctant to vote for the Coalition if you offer them a genuine independent.”

The Liberals are still far short of being genuine contenders to win the next election. The current danger for Albanese is being reduced to minority government and the long oblivion that follows. This would be the second minority government in 15 years. But the bigger problem for our democracy just gets bigger – alienation and fracture in the political system.

PAUL KELLY
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Gentlemen,
I started this Thread, to comment about the (then) upcoming referendum on "The Voice".
The voice debate is over. iIs finished.
If you want to discuss the problems of first Nations crime, go start a thread about it.
If you want to discuss the frailties, real or perceived of the Public service, ditto.
As for bringing back cat o nine tails, geez, i thought we had moved on from that.
The cruelty of some educators from the past should convince anyone with even a small amount of empathy that corporal punishment does nothing except engender firstly fear, then anger and finally hate in its victims.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
Gentlemen,
I started this Thread, to comment about the (then) upcoming referendum on "The Voice".
The voice debate is over. iIs finished.
If you want to discuss the problems of first Nations crime, go start a thread about it.
If you want to discuss the frailties, real or perceived of the Public service, ditto.
As for bringing back cat o nine tails, geez, i thought we had moved on from that.
The cruelty of some educators from the past should convince anyone with even a small amount of empathy that corporal punishment does nothing except engender firstly fear, then anger and finally hate in its victims.
Mick
Click to expand...
Yes good point, what should a thread be called, crime and the breakdown of social norms, crime general, crime and how to deal with it, society and the fall in respect and accountability.
It is difficult to nail the issue, as it is so broad and our conditioning to say nothing that could be seen as discriminatory, hateful, non inclusive, defamatory, unkind, born out of spite, targeting, or any other way you try to explain bad behaviour, makes it very difficult to talk about the issue.
Now when a 90 year old woman gets raped, everyone just looks the other way, because they are scared to say anything, from fear they may well end up in more trouble than the rapist.
We have nurtured a very weird culture.
 
mullokintyre said:
Gentlemen,
I started this Thread, to comment about the (then) upcoming referendum on "The Voice".
The voice debate is over. iIs finished.
If you want to discuss the problems of first Nations crime, go start a thread about it.
If you want to discuss the frailties, real or perceived of the Public service, ditto.
As for bringing back cat o nine tails, geez, i thought we had moved on from that.
The cruelty of some educators from the past should convince anyone with even a small amount of empathy that corporal punishment does nothing except engender firstly fear, then anger and finally hate in its victims.
Mick
Click to expand...
Mick I take your points. But I wonder if you or a loved one was assaulted and finished up in a bad way what your responses would be then. I doubt it would be "oh well they have suffered a hard to bad childhood so I will make exceptions for them. Not me I'm afraid. belt them and belt the ba*&*&tards hard.
 
How about we start a thread "is society sliding into dystopia" ?

Then we can post article of what we feel give us an indication of how our social norms and standards are improving or failing ?
A bit like our political or financial threads, where positives and negatives are aired, I'm not sure a thread like this would be acceptable in the politically correct world we live in currently.
How weird is that, I'm not sure if we are allowed to even talk about the subject. :eek:
 
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sptrawler said:
How about we start a thread "societies slide into dystopia" ?

Then we can post article of what we feel give us an indication of how our social norms and standards are improving or failing ?
A bit like our political or financial threads, where positives and negatives are aired, I'm not sure a thread like this would be acceptable in the politically correct world we live in currently.
How weird is that, I'm not sure if we are allowed to even talk about the subject. :eek:
Click to expand...
We have that, it is called The Lunatic Left;)
 
wayneL said:
We have that, it is called The Lunatic Left;)
Click to expand...
In a way that is true, the left scream blue murder if someone says something derogatory against one of their ideals or one of the champions.

Yet they say what the hell they like, about anyone who they deem is on the other side of the table to them and their cause.

I don't see any great improvements in the U.S since Biden has taken over from Trump, if anything most issues have worsened, yet not a peep about it from the left.
They are still running around in ever decreasing circles over Trump and he hasn't had any influence on the World stage for three years. 🤔
On every measurable metric IMO the U.S and the World has become less stable since Biden has arrived on the scene and Trump has had zero to do with the current issues.
is there any wonder that Trump is looking like getting re elected, he is looking like the most stable loony in the bin at the moment.

As Mick says, maybe the thread should be wound up, before it morphs into something completely different.
 
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Agree with Micks comments.

On the current teenage crime most (up to 80% +) comes from family dysfunction according to a psychologist that worked at Bandyup detention centre here in WA for 23 years, recidivism rate was 90% in other words locking up kids creates bigger criminals according to the numbers.

The police and courts is where it's all too late, the problem is a community one having said all that dont know what the answers are.
 
mullokintyre said:
Gentlemen,
I started this Thread, to comment about the (then) upcoming referendum on "The Voice".
The voice debate is over. iIs finished.
If you want to discuss the problems of first Nations crime, go start a thread about it.
If you want to discuss the frailties, real or perceived of the Public service, ditto.
As for bringing back cat o nine tails, geez, i thought we had moved on from that.
The cruelty of some educators from the past should convince anyone with even a small amount of empathy that corporal punishment does nothing except engender firstly fear, then anger and finally hate in its victims.
Mick
Click to expand...

You started an interesting discussion on a public forum, theoretically the discussion is over when no one comments.

I agree that we must keep the discussion fair, civil, and open. In other words, remember that we’re all different and not to judge others.
 
mullokintyre said:
Gentlemen,
I started this Thread, to comment about the (then) upcoming referendum on "The Voice".
The voice debate is over. iIs finished.
Click to expand...
The debate is over in the formal sense but in practice I doubt we're anywhere near the end in terms of the implications.

Somewhat speculative at this stage but I think someone looking back 20 years from now will recognise it as a turning point much like various others throughout history. A point where things never went back to being quite how they were, the referendum itself was run but permanent change had occurred.

I mean that in the same way that, for example, there's various issues today where if we look back they're clearly traceable as resulting from or at least being heavily influenced by something occurring decades ago, especially during the Hawke - Keating era.

So I think we've at least plausibly seen a turning point the real implications of which will take many years to become apparent. :2twocents
 
mullokintyre said:
The cruelty of some educators from the past should convince anyone with even a small amount of empathy that corporal punishment does nothing except engender firstly fear, then anger and finally hate in its victims.
Click to expand...

Well, it's obvious that under the mollycoddling Left the problem is getting worse.

If corporal punishment is too much for some, I would suggest chain gangs working on the roads or picking fruit, ie getting the thugs to do something useful and/or a tattoo on their foreheads saying "Rapist" or "murderer" or "thief", to let the innocent citizens know their crimes.

Also agree that it's thread drift and there is probably a more appropriate thread somewhere.
 
JohnDe said:
Yes, agreed. I hope that change is on the wind.

After the voice, disaffected voters are ready to shatter political convention​
​
The old rules of politics are falling apart. The electorate is more temperamental, divided and volatile. The troubles of the Albanese government have two sources – its own mistakes and the fracturing of our political culture into subcultures.​
​
The voice referendum reveals the erosion of our common purpose. The internal tension over the Israel-Hamas war is another prime exhibit. The central disorganising principle is the hostility between the public and elites (left or right) and the public’s distrust of institutional political power.​
Click to expand...
Hits the nail on the head, accurate assessment imo.
 
Macquack said:

Jacinta Price accuses Albanese of ‘ignoring Indigenous issues’ after Voice failure​

MSN

www.msn.com

Who would of thought, she now wants a voice.

Bad luck Jacinta, you lose, because you won.
Click to expand...

Can't argue with that - "Anthony Albanese has been missing-in-action on Aboriginal issues following failed Voice to Parliament referendum"
 

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