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The Voice

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Sean K said:
I think my favourite Oils song was Kosciuszko, sung by the drummer.

Bloody hell, if the Finns come out in favour of the Voice, I will have no music left.
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Personally I don't choose music based on the artists' political views, I separate the art from the artist, but this does cut very close to the bone in terms of the problem with the whole thing.

Someone with fame, presumably quite a bit of money and whose career's somewhat sheltered from the realities of the world backs the Voice meanwhile those at the opposite end of the spectrum aren't at all keen.

It's the elites versus the working class with the elites just not grasping why others aren't too keen.

That sums up many of the most contentious political debates. The dreams of the rich versus the hard reality of those aspiring not just to put food on the table, but to have a table in the first place and a house to put it in.

At the other end of the scale is victimhood and that a significant number of individuals have somehow ended up in a mental state of hopelessness. Either they lack the motivation to make an effort to succeed or they genuinely believe they cannot do so. This is despite no physical, intellectual or even educational barrier to success. There's no fundamental reason why they cannot succeed, but they've become convinced otherwise. They genuinely believe that the only way for those at the bottom to improve their circumstances is via ongoing welfare.

This being very different to those who do genuinely lack ability (eg intellectually disabled). For those people well sure, in a civilised society we ought look after them as best we can and that's a case where discrimination is in my view warranted. It won't hurt the rest of us to reserve simple employment for such people and pay a few $ in tax to make it work. That's actual "positive discrimination" to assist those who really are disadvantaged and I see no problem with that.

There's a much broader problem here, a great divide in society both in terms of wealth and mental space, than just the Voice or any other social issue itself. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
For those people well sure, in a civilised society we ought look after them as best we can and that's a case where discrimination is in my view warranted. It won't hurt the rest of us to reserve simple employment for such people and pay a few $ in tax to make it work.
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Yes indeed. The mutual obligation to take advantage of the opportunities is implied. If there is little response from the people these projects are supposed to help then the incentives are worthless, but definitely give them a chance.
 
Smurf1976 said:
There's a much broader problem here, a great divide in society both in terms of wealth and mental space, than just the Voice or any other social issue itself.
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Absolutely.

The young (and I'm not) are being taken to the cleaners by the cashed up older generation pricing them out of the housing market thanks to tax incentives, then if they get a good education they have to pay back HECS which I would say very few of the current politicians would have had to do.

The future of our country is with the young, they need to be given a fair chance of owning their own home and not be burdened by excessive debt or living expenses.
 
Smurf1976 said:
One of the most famous bands in living memory despite producing remarkably little music.

There's a lesson there somewhere. :2twocents
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Lydon is at least as famous for his interviews as his music. And still sticking it the establishment even today. Despite the punk image, the man has many remarkable qualities; I really like him. :2twocents
 
SirRumpole said:
Yes indeed. The mutual obligation to take advantage of the opportunities is implied. If there is little response from the people these projects are supposed to help then the incentives are worthless, but definitely give them a chance.
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Humans respond to incentives. I'm definitely on board with creating opportunities for the disadvantaged, but the incentive must be greater than welfare, the correlary of which is that welfare needs to be disincentived somehow.

I realise that's a tough balance make without causing harm, but the carrot is not enough, you do need a stick as well .
 
wayneL said:
Humans respond to incentives. I'm definitely on board with creating opportunities for the disadvantaged, but the incentive must be greater than welfare, the correlary of which is that welfare needs to be disincentived somehow.

I realise that's a tough balance make without causing harm, but the carrot is not enough, you do need a stick as well .
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Welfare is being disincentived by the fact that Newstart payments haven't been increased for a long time and are now pretty impossible to live on for many people, and the low unemployment rate shows that people are willing to take up jobs when they are available.
 
wayneL said:
Lydon is at least as famous for his interviews as his music. And still sticking it the establishment even today. Despite the punk image, the man has many remarkable qualities; I really like him. :2twocents
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Not if you hear anything that Steve Jones has to say.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Personally I don't choose music based on the artists' political views, I separate the art from the artist, but this does cut very close to the bone in terms of the problem with the whole thing.

Someone with fame, presumably quite a bit of money and whose career's somewhat sheltered from the realities of the world backs the Voice meanwhile those at the opposite end of the spectrum aren't at all keen.

It's the elites versus the working class with the elites just not grasping why others aren't too keen.

That sums up many of the most contentious political debates. The dreams of the rich versus the hard reality of those aspiring not just to put food on the table, but to have a table in the first place and a house to put it in.

At the other end of the scale is victimhood and that a significant number of individuals have somehow ended up in a mental state of hopelessness. Either they lack the motivation to make an effort to succeed or they genuinely believe they cannot do so. This is despite no physical, intellectual or even educational barrier to success. There's no fundamental reason why they cannot succeed, but they've become convinced otherwise. They genuinely believe that the only way for those at the bottom to improve their circumstances is via ongoing welfare.

This being very different to those who do genuinely lack ability (eg intellectually disabled). For those people well sure, in a civilised society we ought look after them as best we can and that's a case where discrimination is in my view warranted. It won't hurt the rest of us to reserve simple employment for such people and pay a few $ in tax to make it work. That's actual "positive discrimination" to assist those who really are disadvantaged and I see no problem with that.

There's a much broader problem here, a great divide in society both in terms of wealth and mental space, than just the Voice or any other social issue itself. :2twocents
Click to expand...
I've tried explaining this to yes voters the other day, people with families are living out of their cars and have spent most of their lives working and paying taxes, then you have Labor that spends millions on a referendum. People just see the simple view of it even though it might be different levels of govt responsibility, same with the native land title that blocks public access.

The circle of welfare reliance is going to be something very hard to break, most of them don't want to relocate due to family and cultural issues. How can you make employment to suit them in remote communities? Everything costs more to be competitive with the inner city equivalents.
 
It is starting to get very nasty. I was hoping that we wouldn't get to this stage, but here it is.

A longtime friend posted this on his FB account -

"The 1967 referendum had a Yes vote of 91 percent! Now imagine if the Dishonest, Lying, Racist, Right wing led by the despicable Dutton had been influencing the outcome , I very much doubt it would have got even 50 %!!"​

I don't believe it, and I can't understand how, an intelligent person can come up with that conclusion, and not understand that a successful referendum requires both major parties to work together. Any failing must be directed at the party in power.

Indigenous voice countdown a seminal period for Anthony Albanese’s leadership

“Whatever the outcome of the referendum, on October 15th our nation will be bruised,” Mr Dutton said, according to a Coalition spokeswoman.”​

My re-adjusted hope is that the No side can take the moral high ground and show the Yes side how to be civil and gracious.
 
SirRumpole said:
Absolutely.

The young (and I'm not) are being taken to the cleaners by the cashed up older generation pricing them out of the housing market thanks to tax incentives, then if they get a good education they have to pay back HECS which I would say very few of the current politicians would have had to do.

The future of our country is with the young, they need to be given a fair chance of owning their own home and not be burdened by excessive debt or living expenses.
Click to expand...

Welp, go woke, go broke. The young are very woke, comparatively.
 
StockyGuy said:
Welp, go woke, go broke. The young are very woke, comparatively.
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I don't think there is a lot of correlation between wokeness and brokeness.

Apparently a lot of the business organisations suddenly getting woke and backing the Voice are doing quite well.

The young struggling to find a room to rent are wondering why all the fuss is about aborigines and not them.
 
SirRumpole said:
I don't think there is a lot of correlation between wokeness and brokeness.

Apparently a lot of the business organisations suddenly getting woke and backing the Voice are doing quite well.

The young struggling to find a room to rent are wondering why all the fuss is about aborigines and not them.
Click to expand...

Yep, yep. I sorta enjoy the alliteration of that expression I used, though. Reality is far more nuanced. All big sweeping statements along those lines are gonna be partly wrong and partly right, basically. But also remember there's a difference between "acting woke" when it's the flavour of the month/century, versus actually believing it.
 
StockyGuy said:
Yep, yep. I sorta enjoy the alliteration of that expression I used, though. Reality is far more nuanced. All big sweeping statements along those lines are gonna be partly wrong and partly right, basically. But also remember there's a difference between "acting woke" when it's the flavour of the month/century, versus actually believing it.
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Maybe ask the marketing bods at Bud Light, Target USA, Disney, etc.

The worm may be turning.
 
It's funny how Labor uses the excuse that the Libs could abolish the advisory body like they did before if it was legislated, They forgot to mention that Labor of the past was going to abolish ATSIC if they got in power anyway.

The Howard Government’s recent decision to abolish ATSIC, and the Labor Opposition’s announcement that it would do likewise if elected to government, have provoked a great deal of discussion about policy-making and service delivery in Indigenous affairs: about how the proposed arrangements compare to earlier models of service delivery and policy advice; and about the likely effect of the abolition of ATSIC on outcomes in Indigenous affairs. They have also raised the question of whether there is a continuing role for any type of elected, Indigenous-only body.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:%22library/prspub/FXED6%22#:~:text=The%20Howard%20Government's%20recent%20decision,compare%20to%20earlier%20models%20of
 
Albo effectively gets thrown under the bus by his own minister and exposes him as a lying POS.

The fact that 40 odd percent of Australians are still so stupidly naive is alarming.

 

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