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The Voice

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SirRumpole said:
In my view, Albos best policy is to stop campaigning and just say "its up to the people ", that let's him off the hook if its knocked back. Continual campaigning will just continue the division.
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The hole is getting deeper. I don't know how Labor reverse this.
 
Thinking about practical solutions to all this, surely there's an obvious one staring us all in the face?

Aboriginals supposedly own half the land in Australia, at least that's the claim (I haven't verified that).

Regardless of detail, they do have a significant amount of land that's clear.

They're reported to be 3.2% of the population. Far less than the amount of land they have, so population density shouldn't be a problem.

So why not simply give them two choices?

1. Go and live your traditional lifestyle. The rest of society will leave you to it, we won't come on your land, and we'll even defend it against anyone else coming onto it. But that's it, you're living your traditional lifestyle so don't come back asking for things all the time and likewise the rest of us won't ask anything from you.

2. At least loosely assimilate with the rest of society as everyone else is required to if they want to live in mainstream Australian society. You'll be required to respect the authority of government as is everyone else, and will be entitled to everything that everyone else is entitled to. Noting this in no way precludes having whatever cultural beliefs you wish to have, as is the case with anyone else.

Problem?
 
Smurf1976 said:
Thinking about practical solutions to all this, surely there's an obvious one staring us all in the face?

Aboriginals supposedly own half the land in Australia, at least that's the claim (I haven't verified that).

Regardless of detail, they do have a significant amount of land that's clear.

They're reported to be 3.2% of the population. Far less than the amount of land they have, so population density shouldn't be a problem.

So why not simply give them two choices?

1. Go and live your traditional lifestyle. The rest of society will leave you to it, we won't come on your land, and we'll even defend it against anyone else coming onto it. But that's it, you're living your traditional lifestyle so don't come back asking for things all the time and likewise the rest of us won't ask anything from you.

2. At least loosely assimilate with the rest of society as everyone else is required to if they want to live in mainstream Australian society. You'll be required to respect the authority of government as is everyone else, and will be entitled to everything that everyone else is entitled to. Noting this in no way precludes having whatever cultural beliefs you wish to have, as is the case with anyone else.

Problem?
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I doubt either of those conditions would appeal to the ATSI community. Their skills to survive in their traditional way without assistance have long since gone, but they are culturally still connected to those ways and unwilling to break away from them.

If they want to live traditionally ok in a sense, but stop blaming the rest of us for their lifestyle choices and don't expect a degree of welfare in excess to what the other 97% of the population receive.

ATSI people can succeed in the modern world if they make an effort, via traditional art and music, or individuals can realise that there is a modern world out there that they can take advantage of like anyone else through education and training.

The next step is really up to them imo.
 
SirRumpole said:
I doubt either of those conditions would appeal to the ATSI community. Their skills to survive in their traditional way without assistance have long since gone, but they are culturally still connected to those ways and unwilling to break away from them.

If they want to live traditionally ok in a sense, but stop blaming the rest of us for their lifestyle choices and don't expect a degree of welfare in excess to what the other 97% of the population receive.

ATSI people can succeed in the modern world if they make an effort, via traditional art and music, or individuals can realise that there is a modern world out there that they can take advantage of like anyone else through education and training.

The next step is really up to them imo.
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They should allow some outsiders to visit some commissions and show people how they really live. What they want is just impossible without accepting Western culture as their main way of life.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Thinking about practical solutions to all this, surely there's an obvious one staring us all in the face?

Aboriginals supposedly own half the land in Australia, at least that's the claim (I haven't verified that).

Regardless of detail, they do have a significant amount of land that's clear.

They're reported to be 3.2% of the population. Far less than the amount of land they have, so population density shouldn't be a problem.

So why not simply give them two choices?

1. Go and live your traditional lifestyle. The rest of society will leave you to it, we won't come on your land, and we'll even defend it against anyone else coming onto it. But that's it, you're living your traditional lifestyle so don't come back asking for things all the time and likewise the rest of us won't ask anything from you.

2. At least loosely assimilate with the rest of society as everyone else is required to if they want to live in mainstream Australian society. You'll be required to respect the authority of government as is everyone else, and will be entitled to everything that everyone else is entitled to. Noting this in no way precludes having whatever cultural beliefs you wish to have, as is the case with anyone else.

Problem?
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Problem.
You, like so many others, have made the assumption that the entire 3.2% of aboriginal people think the same.
Some Aboriginals will eagerly take the first option, some will take the second option, and some will want a myriad of hybrid options.
Aborigines are not a groupthink.
Mick
 
mullokintyre said:
Problem.
You, like so many others, have made the assumption that the entire 3.2% of aboriginal people think the same.
Some Aboriginals will eagerly take the first option, some will take the second option, and some will want a myriad of hybrid options.
Aborigines are not a groupthink.
Mick
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This is why something like the voice will be an even bigger failure, how are many individual land councils going to be represented by one body? The Uluru statement was a prime example of disagreement between land councils. It's why the US started to ignore some of the Native Americans' title claims, many of them wanted a payout over the same piece of land and bickered about it.
 
SirRumpole said:
Would Labor be so devious as to set up the referendum to fail ?

Hmmm.
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I don't think they expected there to be much of an issue.

Sadly, all of the Labour power brokers spent all their time mingling with only likeminded people, people like iFocus & rederob. Thinking that the majority of voters followed their view on the world, patting each other on the back after the last election, they could not fathom that there could possibly be a large portion of the Australian public that think differently.

A huge stuff-up, they then allowed their lackies to blame and abuse the No supporters which caused more voters to switch off and turn away from the Yes vote. Realising their mistakes, the new tactic has been to stop abusing the people that they need on their side, and to limit the amount of information.

All this has highlighted that Albanese is no Hawke or Howard. Both Prime Ministers were able to understand the core group of Australian voters from the left and right centres. Albanese has instead surrounded himself with his favourite constituents.

EDIT -
the-voice-png.png
 
JohnDe said:
All this has highlighted that Albanese is no Hawke or Howard. Both Prime Ministers were able to understand the core group of Australian voters from the left and right centres. Albanese has instead surrounded himself with his favourite constituents.

EDIT -
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Bloody Oath!
Howard is still switched on and can read the public to this very day.
 
mullokintyre said:
You, like so many others, have made the assumption that the entire 3.2% of aboriginal people think the same.
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If I've come across that way then it's unintentional.

My actual thought being specifically that "Aboriginal" is not a single thing, it's not like (say) a mass manufactured product or a precise location where it's always the same. A group of people won't all have the same thoughts and aspirations.

That's my actual reason for giving them the choice but making clear that it is a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it, but you can choose one or the other. Bearing in mind nobody else gets that choice in the first place.

In saying that I'll stand corrected if anyone can argue otherwise, but I do have the definite thought that for the vast majority of young ATSI people, teenagers in particular, by far the best outcome for them personally is the second option. Fully integrate with the rest of society, succeed in the manner that the rest of society considers successful and so on. At some future time we end up with an Aboriginal person as a state Premier or even Prime Minister, having got there due to legitimately being voted in not because someone set up a quota.

What I'm concerned about with the Voice is whether or not we'll see Aboriginal elders trying to hold back their own youth, determined to keep the "traditional way of life" alive, rather than letting it decline to eventual irrelevance as the young leave for better opportunities with the mainstream?

I can't prove that would occur, but it's a concern from my perspective. Certainly in other cultures, parents trying to hold back their kids isn't at all uncommon. :2twocents
 
TimeISmoney said:
Where did the allegation originally come from, when someone makes allegations like this Govts have to act. You can't deny the high rate of sexual assaults in the area isn't a problem.
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That's not how Howard portrayed the problem, certainly sexual abuse is a problem in communities but note after a male was recently charged with over 1,000 sexual abuse's a leading expert commented its estimated in the Australian community at large 1 in 3 children will experience sexual abuse by 18 years of age.

Where is the intervention for that?

Also note Dutton and Price ran the photo opportunity about sexual abuse in Aboriginal communities in the NT as a reason for voting no. It was pointed out the similarities to Howards intervention, the central land council in the NT have asked Price to talk to them about the issue.
Price has so far refused, note they are same tribe as Price.

Note the politics.
 
Smurf1976 said:
If I've come across that way then it's unintentional.

My actual thought being specifically that "Aboriginal" is not a single thing, it's not like (say) a mass manufactured product or a precise location where it's always the same. A group of people won't all have the same thoughts and aspirations.

That's my actual reason for giving them the choice but making clear that it is a choice. You can't have your cake and eat it, but you can choose one or the other. Bearing in mind nobody else gets that choice in the first place.

In saying that I'll stand corrected if anyone can argue otherwise, but I do have the definite thought that for the vast majority of young ATSI people, teenagers in particular, by far the best outcome for them personally is the second option. Fully integrate with the rest of society, succeed in the manner that the rest of society considers successful and so on. At some future time we end up with an Aboriginal person as a state Premier or even Prime Minister, having got there due to legitimately being voted in not because someone set up a quota.

What I'm concerned about with the Voice is whether or not we'll see Aboriginal elders trying to hold back their own youth, determined to keep the "traditional way of life" alive, rather than letting it decline to eventual irrelevance as the young leave for better opportunities with the mainstream?

I can't prove that would occur, but it's a concern from my perspective. Certainly in other cultures, parents trying to hold back their kids isn't at all uncommon. :2twocents
Click to expand...

The Voice has been clearly defined as progressing the ASTI people to close the gap among out things to allow their voice to be heard on issues concerning them nothing about holding back those with aspirations.
 
IFocus said:
a leading expert commented its estimated in the Australian community at large 1 in 3 children will experience sexual abuse by 18 years of age.
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Is that so? Where did your research statistics come from?
 
One question that was posed to me today was, why do the aboriginals ask for compensation for crimes carried out against them, when they disproprtionately carry out crimes against everyone today.
@IFocus maybe you could comment.
These are the questions people are asking.
 
IFocus said:
That's not how Howard portrayed the problem, certainly sexual abuse is a problem in communities but note after a male was recently charged with over 1,000 sexual abuse's a leading expert commented its estimated in the Australian community at large 1 in 3 children will experience sexual abuse by 18 years of age.

Where is the intervention for that?

Also note Dutton and Price ran the photo opportunity about sexual abuse in Aboriginal communities in the NT as a reason for voting no. It was pointed out the similarities to Howards intervention, the central land council in the NT have asked Price to talk to them about the issue.
Price has so far refused, note they are same tribe as Price.

Note the politics.
Click to expand...
Perpetrator interventions happen every minute of the day, they don't happen on such a big scale because how many communities refuse entry to law enforcement and try to harbour criminals under tribal law?

You might want to have a look and see what they've done to Price's family members and see how they treat her because she doesn't agree with their stance on government.
 
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SirRumpole said:
Just heard on tv that WA will scrap its Aboriginal cultural heritage laws.

Sounds like they have listened to the electorate for once.

www.abc.net.au

WA government to scrap Aboriginal cultural heritage laws after sustained backlash

The ABC understands the Cook government will scrap its controversial Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act within days, and revert back to the old process.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
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Massive swing against the Government.
The backlash was that bad, polling showed the Liberals in W.A were in a winning position, which is amazing in itself as they don't have anyone. :roflmao:

What a mess. :whistling:
 

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