The state of the economy at the street level

qldfrog · 2 October 2019

I think it is high time to redirect spending into productive part of the economy, in qld during drought, we release water because a dam is still not fixed after 6 years
Scrap ndis,nbn, useless submarines, keep budget in line, reallocate into proper infrastructure, railways,road,dams,power lines, hydraulic storage/release,
Throwing money around helicopter wise does not increase the wealth of a country, it increases an empty gdp
Do investment into the economy, not welfare of the economy and keep budget balanced to allow spare capacity when real **** hits the fan worldwide
My election platform

Smurf1976 · 2 October 2019

qldfrog said:
I think it is high time to redirect spending into productive part of the economy

If you'd spent the past 30 years in a coma and had woken up today then current political thinking would make plenty of sense.

It makes no sense however if you've lived through the past three decades and were conscious during that time. A huge amount has changed but our politicians are still living in a world where the biggest problems are how to get inflation down, what to do about government debt and what to do about the problem of the State Bank having gone bust.

Those things seem to still be the underlying basis of political thinking but they're about as relevant in 2019 as cassette tapes, Ansett or Hey Hey It's Saturday. The world has changed and significantly so.

It'll take an actual crisis to force change in my view.

SirRumpole · 2 October 2019

Trouble is that no politicians want to face unpleasant facts or contemplate structural change.

We are in the position of having our industries and livelihoods leached away by low wage economies where being 'working poor' is a way of life and a lifelong trap for most.

Do we want to end up like them ?

We can't make a lot of things in this country any more because the knowledge has been exported.

How much do we get out of "free trade agreements" ? We are worse off following our FTA with the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia–United_States_Free_Trade_Agreement

Trump may well be right. Countries should look after themselves first.

The low wage countries that we compete with have massive populations who if they were paid a reasonable wage would be able to afford the stuff they produce instead of offloading them to us.

Maybe living on a diet of cheap imports for so long has weakened our immune system, like living on nothing but potato crisps, it eventually catches up with you.

But there is no sign among the major parties that they even recognise the problem, much less have the will to do anything about it.

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

SirRumpole said:
Trouble is that no politicians want to face unpleasant facts or contemplate structural change.

We are in the position of having our industries and livelihoods leached away by low wage economies where being 'working poor' is a way of life and a lifelong trap for most.

Do we want to end up like them ?

We can't make a lot of things in this country any more because the knowledge has been exported.

How much do we get out of "free trade agreements" ? We are worse off following our FTA with the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia–United_States_Free_Trade_Agreement

Trump may well be right. Countries should look after themselves first.

The low wage countries that we compete with have massive populations who if they were paid a reasonable wage would be able to afford the stuff they produce instead of offloading them to us.

Maybe living on a diet of cheap imports for so long has weakened our immune system, like living on nothing but potato crisps, it eventually catches up with you.

But there is no sign among the major parties that they even recognise the problem, much less have the will to do anything about it.

Well just last week ScoMo said exactly what you saying about China, and the press and Labor haven't stopped bagging him for it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...lls-for-trade-overhaul-of-wto-system/11541522

From the article:
Speaking at a business event in Chicago, Mr Morrison celebrated China's economic success, noting the country's growth into an economic powerhouse had brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

But he said China's transition to a more developed economy needed to be reflected in the trade obligations and rules that were applied to it by the global community.

"As nations progress and develop then the obligations and how the rules apply to them, also shift," he said.

"I mean we have not seen the emergence of a nation economically like China, since the United States frankly, and at a pace. So [that] is obviously going to impact on how the global institutions and rules work."

Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese said he did not agree with Mr Morrison's assessment of China, and suggested that the Prime Minister's decision to make the call from the United States muddied the message he was trying to send.

"If he is sending China a message from Chicago then that's a message perhaps, if it was going to be advanced, would have been better sent from Australia so there was no confusion that the Prime Minister was advancing Australia's national interest," he said.

"There's a legitimate debate about the World [Trade] Organisation system but we support the existing system."

Smurf1976 · 2 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese said he did not agree with Mr Morrison's assessment of China

A point which goes a long way to explaining why he's Leader of the Opposition rather than being a Minister in the government.

Ordinary people, particularly Labor's traditional support base among blue collar workers but also those in non-elite white collar roles, can see that we're being dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

Smurf1976 said:
A point which goes a long way to explaining why he's Leader of the Opposition rather than being a Minister in the government.

Ordinary people, particularly Labor's traditional support base among blue collar workers but also those in non-elite white collar roles, can see that we're being dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

Absolutely, Australia along with most other first World Countries agreed to help industrialise the third World countries, but it has got to the point in Australia, we can't afford our standard of living and our welfare system.
If something isn't done we will lose both within a couple of generations.
It is a shame the left is all in favour of us becoming a third world country, i can't understand why, but there is certainly a strong push.IMO
They have dumbed down the education system, the apprenticeship system, university entrance etc, god knows what the end game is?

Smurf1976 · 2 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Absolutely, Australia along with most other first World Countries agreed to help industrialise the third World countries

I think part of the issue is that pretty much nobody understood that this was the case until 30-40 years after it was decided.

That there was such an agreement was in hindsight the missing piece of information in all manner of things which went wrong from business and government forecasts through to the big environmental debates of the 1980's and 90's. Pretty much nobody involved with all that really understood that aspect upon which everything else rested.

As it stands now though, well it's rather obvious really.

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

Smurf1976 said:
I think part of the issue is that pretty much nobody understood that this was the case until 30-40 years after it was decided.

That there was such an agreement was in hindsight the missing piece of information in all manner of things which went wrong from business and government forecasts through to the big environmental debates of the 1980's and 90's. Pretty much nobody involved with all that really understood that aspect upon which everything else rested.

As it stands now though, well it's rather obvious really.

So true, a lot of it from memory was brought about when Argentina, Brazil etc reneged on their interest payments in the early 1970's.
It is the same as most things, people don't read up and question media reports, to make sure they are actually accurate.
It is like on here on a certain thread, someone was going on about how little Australia was doing in adopting renewables, then found out we are actually per capita doing more than most. The general public aren't being told that by the press, they are being told anything but. IMO
It must be easier selling miss information. IMO

SirRumpole · 2 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Well just last week ScoMo said exactly what you saying about China, and the press and Labor haven't stopped bagging him for it.

Well then, I await with anticipation the Morrison governments imposition of US like tariffs on Chinese goods.

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

SirRumpole said:
Well then, I await with anticipation the Morrison governments imposition of US like tariffs on Chinese goods.

Or you can wait till Albo gets in and continues rowing us down the swanny.
Nothing like blind faith, just sad really.

Humid · 2 October 2019

Smurf1976 said:
If you'd spent the past 30 years in a coma and had woken up today then current political thinking would make plenty of sense.

It makes no sense however if you've lived through the past three decades and were conscious during that time. A huge amount has changed but our politicians are still living in a world where the biggest problems are how to get inflation down, what to do about government debt and what to do about the problem of the State Bank having gone bust.

Those things seem to still be the underlying basis of political thinking but they're about as relevant in 2019 as cassette tapes, Ansett or Hey Hey It's Saturday. The world has changed and significantly so.

It'll take an actual crisis to force change in my view.

Pretty much the demographic that re-elected them

Humid · 2 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Well just last week ScoMo said exactly what you saying about China, and the press and Labor haven't stopped bagging him for it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09...lls-for-trade-overhaul-of-wto-system/11541522

From the article:
Speaking at a business event in Chicago, Mr Morrison celebrated China's economic success, noting the country's growth into an economic powerhouse had brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

But he said China's transition to a more developed economy needed to be reflected in the trade obligations and rules that were applied to it by the global community.

"As nations progress and develop then the obligations and how the rules apply to them, also shift," he said.

"I mean we have not seen the emergence of a nation economically like China, since the United States frankly, and at a pace. So [that] is obviously going to impact on how the global institutions and rules work."

Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese said he did not agree with Mr Morrison's assessment of China, and suggested that the Prime Minister's decision to make the call from the United States muddied the message he was trying to send.

"If he is sending China a message from Chicago then that's a message perhaps, if it was going to be advanced, would have been better sent from Australia so there was no confusion that the Prime Minister was advancing Australia's national interest," he said.

"There's a legitimate debate about the World [Trade] Organisation system but we support the existing system."

Hey you got your franking credits now put up with the rest of it Homer

Humid · 2 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Or you can wait till Albo gets in and continues rowing us down the swanny.
Nothing like blind faith, just sad really.

Votes Libéral for 30 years quotes blind faith
Lolz

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

Humid said:
Votes Libéral for 30 years quotes blind faith
Lolz

Was it 30 years ago since Bob was in, jeez time flies.
I hope Labor can find another Bob, then I might start voting for them again.

sptrawler · 2 October 2019

Humid said:
Hey you got your franking credits now put up with the rest of it Homer

Well with interest rates at 1.6% for 12 months, I need something.

Smurf1976 · 2 October 2019

Humid said:
Pretty much the demographic that re-elected them

I don't want to hijack an economics thread and turn it into a political one but every analysis I've seen on the most recent Australian election is to the effect that Labor appealed too much to those who wear an expensive suit to work, drive a Mercedes and live in the inner suburbs and not enough to the rest.

Politics aside, if you're any sort of ordinary worker, so anyone who's not in the elite professions or with serious money, then the problem is rather obvious.

Australian company paying $30 or $40 an hour plus has to comply with all sorts of regulations just can't compete on price with someone overseas paying $5 an hour or less. End result is they close and our economy is increasingly filled with insecure low wage jobs in service industries as a result and that situation brings us to where we are now.

It doesn't matter how low the interest rates are if consumers don't have secure employment and wages which are are least keeping pace with living costs and preferably increasing. Trouble is, it's rather hard for business to increase wages when they're already paying several times what someone else producing the same goods or services is paying.

I intend that as a being a politically neutral comment as such but obviously there are political implications at both ends of the spectrum. Trump is the most obvious example but then in Germany environmental groups also seem to be leaning in the direction that tariffs could be applied to those with lower standards to neutralise the economic advantage gained from that.

As an investor there's not much to gain from trying to change the world but it would be wise to understand where it's all at. Even the RBA wants wages higher and is no doubt aware that doing so requires a change in focus away from the "lowest costs" one we've had for the past 30+ years.

The upside of it all is that someone can go to Kmart and buy goods at lower nominal prices than they'd have paid for comparable goods in 1989 which represents an outright crash in real terms. The downside is that it's a consumption binge fuelled by hollowing out the economy and has always been ultimately unsustainable.

qldfrog · 3 October 2019

Smurf1976 said:
I don't want to hijack an economics thread and turn it into a political one but every analysis I've seen on the most recent Australian election is to the effect that Labor appealed too much to those who wear an expensive suit to work, drive a Mercedes and live in the inner suburbs and not enough to the rest.

Politics aside, if you're any sort of ordinary worker, so anyone who's not in the elite professions or with serious money, then the problem is rather obvious.

Australian company paying $30 or $40 an hour plus has to comply with all sorts of regulations just can't compete on price with someone overseas paying $5 an hour or less. End result is they close and our economy is increasingly filled with insecure low wage jobs in service industries as a result and that situation brings us to where we are now.

It doesn't matter how low the interest rates are if consumers don't have secure employment and wages which are are least keeping pace with living costs and preferably increasing. Trouble is, it's rather hard for business to increase wages when they're already paying several times what someone else producing the same goods or services is paying.

I intend that as a being a politically neutral comment as such but obviously there are political implications at both ends of the spectrum. Trump is the most obvious example but then in Germany environmental groups also seem to be leaning in the direction that tariffs could be applied to those with lower standards to neutralise the economic advantage gained from that.

As an investor there's not much to gain from trying to change the world but it would be wise to understand where it's all at. Even the RBA wants wages higher and is no doubt aware that doing so requires a change in focus away from the "lowest costs" one we've had for the past 30+ years.

The upside of it all is that someone can go to Kmart and buy goods at lower nominal prices than they'd have paid for comparable goods in 1989 which represents an outright crash in real terms. The downside is that it's a consumption binge fuelled by hollowing out the economy and has always been ultimately unsustainable.

And in Australia, we are stuck in choices between current government which is in status quo or labour which would worsen the situation: more taxes, regulations,h pay and even higher super..so increasing our uncompetitive side,adding increased debt and so less money unless we can sell debt at negative rate..not yet case for Australia
No surprise people want to vote for Trump or Boris or...
At least they tell what everyone not living in fairyland can see and live
That does not mean they can implement their promises, democracy is long gone and dead, but at least they can try

qldfrog · 3 October 2019

Back on the street level
https://www.news.com.au/finance/sma...s/news-story/0c7337a90b3b28a00116aa04652fe420
Go on ebay: most Chinese goods are shipped from hk/china postage free yet are sold only a few dollars and arrive at your door
If i ship anything from Australia to even next door, it will cost me more
This is killing SME trying to jump onto the internet sales wagon
That is a very simple problem entirely within the control of the government
Even a mail stamp is 1$, you can get chinese shipped product by your door for that price..
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-2m-...r-iPhone-6-X-8-7-5-iPad-Air-lot-/263128088143

SirRumpole · 3 October 2019

sptrawler said:
Or you can wait till Albo gets in and continues rowing us down the swanny.
Nothing like blind faith, just sad really.

Morrison is PM right now, not Albo. He either walks the walk or he doesn't, it's up to him.

LNP have done nothing for 6 years and people still vote for them. That's either blind faith or something a lot worse.

SirRumpole · 3 October 2019

Smurf1976 said:
but then in Germany environmental groups also seem to be leaning in the direction that tariffs could be applied to those with lower standards to neutralise the economic advantage gained from that.

Good idea. If the rest of the world imposed tariffs based on the difference in wages and conditions between the importing countries and the exporting countries, then that would encourage the low wage countries to raise their wages and conditions and reduce working slavery in the First World.

The state of the economy at the street level

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