The Olympic Torch Relay

[Lucky]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...-for-themselves/2008/03/31/1206850809700.html

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opini...-for-themselves/2008/03/31/1206850809700.html

1. We expect them to embody greatness, both in competition and out, and yet in the process we accept, even encourage, them to be selfish, and single-minded in the pursuit of their goals to the point of solipsism — such as Australian Olympic swim team captain Grant Hackett.

2. His sport might have taken him across the globe many times, but he revealed the fishbowl-like parameters of his chlorinated existence when he declared that he didn't support any sort of boycott of the Beijing Olympics over China's bloody crackdown in Tibet, adding that "hopefully that issue does die down a little bit".

3. Unfortunate choice of words aside, Hackett is echoing Australian Olympic Committee president John Coates, who described the Olympics as "a force for good", saying, "It is not the role of the IOC to take the lead in addressing such issues as human rights or political matters, which are most appropriately addressed by governments or concerned organisations."

3. It's an unfortunate stance, because he's directly contradicted by the Olympic Charter. It states: "Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good example and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles."

4. It's a fair argument that across-the-board Olympic boycotts never have, and never will, achieve anything concrete but succeed merely in punishing the athletes who miss out. But the IOC and its Australian underlings seem determined to go the other way by letting the Olympics become a propaganda coup for the Chinese.

5. They want it both ways: to maintain the charade that the event is one giant global olive branch (the highfalutin motto for the Beijing Olympics is "one world — one dream") instead of a tarted-up example of rank nationalism, while denying everyone else the opportunity to harvest the potent symbolism of the event.

1. I don't think it's selfish to train for hours a day (?)
2. No way would I criticise Hackett
3. I agree with Coates , IOC doesn't take lead on human rights (and in any case they haveimprpved dramatically in China in the last 40 years).
4. Well if the athletes go, then I won't criticise them - in fact I really enjoyed Lisa Forrest's interview on ABC, speaking of the old days when she went to Moscow ( in fact lead the swimmers as I recall) - because it was a sporting event - when she pointed out that the Olympics should possibly be made less controversial by keeping it in Athens, or at least keep it away from politically sensitive situations. You feel sorry for the athletes who have their one window of opportunity to go to an Olympics, a 4 year event - only to be denied by politics, and age-old problems of the world.
5. "One World - One Dream" ? - sure it will sound a bit hollow. But so too many of the jingoistic things leaders of all nations say and have said - especially around the Olympics - Olympic creeds recited in the past, whilst half the assembled athletes were on drugs/ hormones. etc. ( ok ok a third )

The title of that article "Australia's refusal to take part in any boycott is against the Games' ethos" . At one level yes, arguably twisting the words intended for a sporting event - but suppose China is improving on human rights? - suppose even the Dalai Lama doesn't want a boycott? - and suppose a boycott caused a downturn in this positive trend? Is the author of that article gonna take some of the blame?.

PS I'd agree with Lisa Forrest - Keep the Olympics politics free. With diplomatic "attention", etc hopefully the problem of Tibet will continue to improve in the background.

 

[CanOz]

Personally i couldn't give a toss about the olympics, at least the summer games anyway. Having lived in china for nearly three years now i just see the rest of the world getting bad information about an event that has had similarities to events that happened in many 'free' countries and regions in the past. Countries like Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Zimbabwe, Canada, Australia etc etc..

China has something like 100+ minorities, can you imagine if they let one group separate and form another state?

China is very good at managing thier population. 99% of the torch relay protestors would have no idea the scale and difficulty in managing the people in China, they would never consider that it takes a delicate hand to manage these people through an unprecidented period of sustained growth. Occasionally the hand becomes a little less delicate in dealing with certain parts of the population. Whether that was even coordinated by the central government remains to be seen.

How bad the situation was in Tibet, we will never know for many years. There are countless mistakes, and untruths in the Western media, just as there are outright lies in the Chinese media for sure.

I feel sad for any oppressed minority in any state, and i feel sad for a government that is so well intentioned, but lacking in control of its own state affiliates so as to allow this to get as out of hand as it has.

I too feel sad for the Chinese people that are so proud to be hosting the event, the sports loving public that i share my life with.

China won't allow Tibet to separate any more than they will Taiwan to declare independance.....this is a no brainer. For the most part they will continue to control the population to avoid a run on the minorities, and i can fully understand thier need to do this as there is no other way.

China is such a different country than it was two decades ago, a fact that these protestors are failing to consider in my view. The lives of the vast MAJORITY of people in China has improved out of sight in the last 5 years alone!

To protest this is undertandable, but until the truth is out a balanced view must be taken. Turning the world against the Chinese people is not the answer here...IN MY VIEW.

And Chops, the length's that China goes to to control the media is annoying at times to me for sure. But the alternative, for someone living there, is less appealing. There would be mass civil unrest, groups protesting about any and everything, and eventually a breakdown of the society.

Anyway, thanks for letting me express my opinion, its been a nice treat.

Cheers,


CanOz
(5 days left of posting and counting)

 

[juw177]

Agree completely with CanOz. It is sad that people are used to brushing these views as Chinese propaganda. (as I had been in this thread:
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10341)

The situation in Tibet can be known, but is kept distorted by the western media. I do not know how Chinese media distorts the reporting but but at least they are reporting using actual footage of the protests (as opposed to reporting what Richard Gere and the Dalai Lama says). There is also a list of names of Han Chinese that died that should be easily verified. Yet, Dalai Lama's unsubstantiated claim of 120 dead is what makes western headlines.

There is also an eye witness account by a western reporter here that supports China's version of the events:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/

 

[Prospector]

What surprises me is the timing of all this. I really find it hard to believe that China has suddenly and inexplicably started this action in Tibet, at the same time as the world spotlight is turned on them with the Olympics. It makes no sense at all.

So what is the real story behind the headlines?

 

[CanOz]

Agree completely with CanOz. It is sad that people are used to brushing these views as Chinese propaganda. (as I had been in this thread:
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10341)

The situation in Tibet can be known, but is kept distorted by the western media. I do not know how Chinese media distorts the reporting but but at least they are reporting using actual footage of the protests (as opposed to reporting what Richard Gere and the Dalai Lama says). There is also a list of names of Han Chinese that died that should be easily verified. Yet, Dalai Lama's unsubstantiated claim of 120 dead is what makes western headlines.

There is also an eye witness account by a western reporter here that supports China's version of the events:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/

Thats a great interview, a must read for all debating this. It certainly cleared up few doubts in my mind.

CanOz

 

[2020hindsight]

Rudd being vocal on Chinese human rights record. ..
(pretty strong criticism considering he is visiting )
Speech delivered in Mandarin I think (according to ABC's PM) - includes (paraphrased) "Some people are bound to turn their backs on the torch " etc

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/09/2212467.htm

China sprays Rudd over Tibet human rights claims
By China correspondent Stephen McDonell

Posted 2 hours 36 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 22 minutes ago

Senior Chinese Government officials have publicly attacked Prime Minister Kevin Rudd over his comments on Tibet.

In Washington, Mr Rudd said it was clear that human rights abuses were being committed in Tibet, and today he repeated those claims during a speech at a university in Beijing.

But Chinese Government officials say his comments are unfounded.

Communist Party Central Committee spokesman Si Ta has criticised Mr Rudd at a Beijing press conference.

"The reporter mentioned about the certain politician who expressed concern about China's human rights record. This particular politician should join us in condemning the violent crimes in Lhasa - the crimes that have violated human rights," he said.

Tibetan Regional Government chairman Xiangba Puncog also disagreed with Mr Rudd's comments and echoed Mr Si's view on human rights.

"Australia, or other countries, should have better appreciation and understanding of the fact that people in Tibet are now enjoying democracy and have wonderful human rights protection, and those remarks are totally unfounded," he said.

But Mr Rudd says he will not be backing away from his plan to raise his concerns with the Chinese leadership.

"It's important, as I said in my speech earlier today, to have a relationship that is capable of handling a disagreement and putting views in a straight-forward fashion," he said.
etc

 

[Julia]

I'm not sure that Mr Rudd's "honesty" was altogether wise with the Chinese at this tender stage of his reign.
Could it be that he has become just a bit carried away with putting the world to rights in this world tour?

 

[Sprinter79]

I think Mr Rudd, having spent many years there, is in a better position than most to make comment on this issue.

Although this Labor government is moderate at best, it is much much much further Left than what we have been used to over the last 11 years.

He has a problem with the way China are dealing with Tibet, and he hasn't pulled any punches. Good on him. It reminds of when we used to have Japanese exchange students at high school, and we were told many many times not to mention WWII to them... I'm sure you can figure out the rest :

 

[Prospector]

I'm not sure that Mr Rudd's "honesty" was altogether wise with the Chinese at this tender stage of his reign.
Could it be that he has become just a bit carried away with putting the world to rights in this world tour?

I agree, he may be right, but he has yet to establish his cred with the world leaders! Whether he likes it or not, he is very much the new boy on the block, and given the internet restrictions in China, maybe the students hadnt even heard of him before.

And the students (well, the ones interviewed) didn't seem to happy about it either.

I have wondered about these internet restrictions though; there doesnt seem to be any restrictions in Hong Kong.

 

[Sprinter79]

And the students (well, the ones interviewed) didn't seem to happy about it either.

Maybe they weren't happy about it because it goes against the ingrained 'beliefs' that they have about their own country. When you are told/learn something that doesn't fit with the knowledge you think you have, you have a bit of internal turmoil. It's the same as not mentioning WWII to the Japanese.

It could also be that most of the crowd agreed with what he said, but the media only chose to show those that cared to talk to the cameras and didn't agree?

 

[Prospector]

Maybe they weren't happy about it because it goes against the ingrained 'beliefs' that they have about their own country. When you are told/learn something that doesn't fit with the knowledge you think you have, you have a bit of internal turmoil. It's the same as not mentioning WWII to the Japanese.

It could also be that most of the crowd agreed with what he said, but the media only chose to show those that cared to talk to the cameras and didn't agree?

And the students (well, the ones interviewed) didn't seem to happy about it either.

Yep. I also think that it is probably offensive for any stranger (even if they are right) to be invited into your country and then have them tell you that what your country is doing is wrong.

 

[Sprinter79]

Yep. I also think that it is probably offensive for any stranger (even if they are right) to be invited into your country and then have them tell you that what your country is doing is wrong.

Well, I guess they're going to have to suck it up, aren't they? There's going to be plenty more unpleasant truths to come before this episode has played itself out. The real question however, is how much is going to trickle down to the average Chinese? With such heavy censorship in place, the population may have very little idea of what is happening in the real world.

 

[Prospector]

The real question however, is how much is going to trickle down to the average Chinese? With such heavy censorship in place, the population may have very little idea of what is happening in the real world.

DO you really think we are told the real world? You mean things like Weapons of Mass Destruction? What is the real world - everything we know is only what the media wants to tell us!

 

[chops_a_must]

DO you really think we are told the real world? You mean things like Weapons of Mass Destruction? What is the real world - everything we know is only what the media wants to tell us!

It's a matter of where you look.

There was plenty of information around at the time about that subject.

All people had to do was open their eyes.

Not hard.

 

[Buddy]

What surprises me is the timing of all this. I really find it hard to believe that China has suddenly and inexplicably started this action in Tibet, at the same time as the world spotlight is turned on them with the Olympics. It makes no sense at all.

So what is the real story behind the headlines?

P,
Why are you surprised by the timing. I do not believe the Chinese Government actually had a planned program to stir up trouble in Tibet in the year 2008. What could they possibley gain by that? There is no way the Chinese Government (Politiburo) would want this to happen. It is bleeding obvious that the other side (Tibetan activists??) have created the situation. If I were a Tibetan activist, then I would start stirring things up around early 2008. I would not put all my energy into doing it in 2005, 2006 or 2007 - too much energy wasted for little return. The timing is obvious, to create a drama as the Olympics winds up. So, IMHO the real story is that the Tibetan activists have a perfect sense of timing to promote their cause. In fact, I would not be surprised one iota, if other groups with an axe to grind in China, dont start their campaigns about now.

Having said all that, IMO:-
1) Television networks now rule the Olympics.
2) China probably should not have been chosen, even though they are trying to drag themselves out of the Cultural revolution, etc. And, where were all the foreign protesters when that was going on? Millions died and were persecuted by Mao and mates.
3) Protesters against the running of the Olympic torch degrade themselves and their cause. It is supposed to be a procession promoting peace, sporting competition, and the Olympic ideals (even though they have been somewhat corrupted in the last 50 years). Not to promote or advocate war and violence. Remember, the Olympic flame was not invented by the Chinese.
4) And finally, 100m & 200m Olympic finalist sprinters are (in general) a bunch of pussy punces.

 

[2020hindsight]

1. I agree, he may be right, but he has yet to establish his cred with the world leaders! Whether he likes it or not, he is very much the new boy on the block, and given the internet restrictions in China, maybe the students hadnt even heard of him before.

2. And the students (well, the ones interviewed) didn't seem to happy about it either.

3. I have wondered about these internet restrictions though; there doesnt seem to be any restrictions in Hong Kong.

1. That status could be changing fast
2. Seem to recall the ABC saying that the Beijing Uni where Rudd gave yesterday's speech was a centre for the Falun Gong back around the Tiananmen Square days (btw, anyone recall Bob Hawke crying as he broke that one to the Aussie public?).

And the students who were interviewed after the speech would be unlikely to agree with a controversial opinion ON CAMERA. But that's not to say they wouldn't have kept the option of privately agreeing with some of what he had to say - possibly even surprised by it and/or "educated" by it.

Apparently he told jokes in Mandarin, even rhyming jokes - then after he had the audience well and truly on board (as the spin doctors mentioned this morning on ABC radio) - quite bumplessly moved to an honest opinion of what he (and Aus) thought of China's human rights record. - expertly done they said. - rave reviews etc.

Other reporters travelling with him have said that he doesn't want to be accused of saying one thing to their face, and another behind their back. Be interesting to see if he achieves anything. At least he is tackling the problem in the manner more appropriate than boycotting the Olympics (imo).

3. Interesting point about internet access in HK. - maybe someone has more info on this. Certainly I met a Chinese Engineer in Fiji a few years back, and he spent 100% of his free time researching the internet.


PS As for boycotts (and alternatives to Olympic boycotts) etc ... I read in an ABC forum someone saying they felt really really strongly about this !!! - and they were going to give up buying Chinese-origin merchandise "until the end of the year" (and it read as if they didn't expect any progress). I thought to myself ..
a) I wonder if the poster realises how much that we use is made in China, and
b) why only to the end of the year?
c) do we also protest exports to China?

The option of trade boycotts are quickly discounted and/or swept aside - therefore why should the athletes have to take the reponsibility. (imo).

 

[Boggo]

This is where it gets messy.
I hope Australia have more sense than to allow these "visitors" to accompany the relay.
http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-are-thugs-from-chinese-military-1342251.html

Mike

 

[Buddy]

PS As for boycotts (and alternatives to Olympic boycotts) etc ... I read in an ABC forum someone saying they felt really really strongly about this !!! - and they were going to give up buying Chinese-origin merchandise "until the end of the year" (and it read as if they didn't expect any progress). I thought to myself ..
a) I wonder if the poster realises how much that we use is made in China, and
b) why only to the end of the year?
c) do we also protest exports to China?

The option of trade boycotts are quickly discounted and/or swept aside - therefore why should the athletes have to take the reponsibility. (imo).

He/she must have a bit of money if not buying anything from China. Either that, or he/she is going to be a bit short on some things. Also, probably never goes to Bunnings (is there anything in there not made in China?).

OK so let's follow this through. I'm waiting in anticipation of seeing protesters blocking iron ore and coal ships up North WA and in Queensland. MUA will be right behind that one, eh? And, no more Chinese students at our educational institutes. What else is there?

Hey, this protest stuff is a really good plan (not). Extremely well thought through and executed .

 

[Buddy]

This is where it gets messy.
I hope Australia have more sense than to allow these "visitors" to accompany the relay.
http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-are-thugs-from-chinese-military-1342251.html

Mike

Having said elsewhere that I dont particularly like the idea of the protests, there is absolutely no way on this earth that the Australian governemnent should permit these thugs into Australia, or permit any homegrown thugs of this type, carry out so called security operations.

Frankly, I think it may be better for the Olympic movement if the whole torch procession thing were to be cancelled for these Olympics. It is just not worth it and totally degrades the ideals behind it. I for one, cannot support or tolerate having these mindless thugs (and the protesters, for that matter) within a thousand miles of the Olympic flame. Let's at least have some dignity.