The Olympic Torch Relay

[Prospector]

My partner ran with the Olympic Torch relay for the Sydney Olympics. It was a fantastic event, and while my partner was somewhat reluctant to do it (didnt think he deserved the honour!) I thought it would be a great opportunity for our kids to see their Dad running. And once he had participated, he had to agree that the experience was amazing! But it was all about the Olympic Spirit, and the fact that Sydney was holding the Games was very much a secondary thought.

So while I understand that the Tibet issue is of grave concern, I see the current demonstrations as attacking the Olympic Spirit, and not China's policies on human rights.

But it must be terrifying for the runners to wonder what might happen next. Yet a few weeks ago they would have been running on high in expectation of being involved in this event.

I think they may well cancel it, which hardly further's Tibet's cause, and may well turn people away from it.

What do other's think?

 

[kyme]

People trying to stop the olympic torch/ boycott the games very misguided in my view. They could effectively get their point across by silent protest/turning their backs on torch etc. Their actions to date if continued is gonna loose tibet sympathy.
The original olympic spirit was to put aside all disputes, arguments even wars during the games. For the life of me I can't see how making china loose face is gonna help the tibetans, I fear the opposite I'm afraid.

 

[juw177]

It is horrible what they are doing. Every year there are some idiots that try to snatch the torch or something, but this year, the media tells everyone it is cool to stir up trouble because it is big bad China.

Who cares that the Tibet rioters are a vandalising, murdering mob? The media says it is cool. And that freedom is such a hip word (even though it is almost meaningless when applied to Tibet). One would think our media is trying to start a war with China or something.

 

[robert toms]

I would not worry too much,I think that the protesters have over played their hand already....most of us have short attentions spans !
This too shall pass!

 

[kyme]

I have great sympathy for Tibetan rights but none at all for independence I'm afraid. What would be the GDP of an independent Tibet.? What would they export.? Afghanistan has more chance of becoming a modern wealthy independent state.
China is supplying the country with roads, education, health care etc at great cost. Would the West take up funding requirements if China pulled out, and if so for how long.? Maybe the west might help them if they had some oil. I can see why many tibetans say their culture is under attack, same as some aboriginals say Australia destroying their culture. If China is evil what does aboriginal life expectancy of being 17 years less than whites say about Australia.?
There is no shortage of violence/demonstrations in todays world, what we are lacking is peaceful dialogue. I was hoping the Olympic spirit would be a catalyst for that but I'm starting to fear I'm gonna be disappointed.

 

[Sprinter79]

The" Olympic Spirit" is the biggest sham of all. It has never been about all the airy fairy stuff. It is an elitest competition, and the modern games are nothing like the Ancient Games. The Olympics weren't held during WWI or II and have been highly politicised over the years.

It was a huge mistake to 'award' China the games, and the minute they did so, it should have become obvious to those who didn't already know, that the mighty dollar rules all, even the so-called Olympic Spirit.

I don't necesarily agree with the action that some people are taking, but it is about raising awareness of the plight of the Tibetian people. Using the Olympic Torch as a way to achieve this goal is fair game, as most people don't know about the Human Rights abuses by the occupying Chinese forces in Tibet.

It would also be highly insulting to take the torch through Tibet, and potentially a spark for serious civil unrest, resulting in more deaths.

 

[Prospector]

The" Olympic Spirit" is the biggest sham of all. It has never been about all the airy fairy stuff.

The athletes who compete don't think like this. Nor do the kids who aspire to compete and use this vision while doing the 4am early morning training sessions. And isn't it about the athletes?

The Olympics weren't held during WWI or II

A world wide war does have an impact on a couple of issues relevant here. Even without the 'politics'.

It was a huge mistake to 'award' China the games

Maybe the IOC thought the Chinese would raise the bar and aspire to the Olympic vision?

Using the Olympic Torch as a way to achieve this goal is fair game

Dont agree, the Torch is not about China, it is the flame.

It would also be highly insulting to take the torch through Tibet

I dont think it is.
Would just like you to explore why the Flame is a fair target?

 

[chimp]

Sprinter, I'm quite astonished by your condemnation of Chinese actions in Tibet. I went there last year, the society was just as peaceful and prospering as anywhere else. Plenty of people worship as they wish.

Tibet has never been an independent soverign country, rather it was a theocratic state with Dalai Lama being both spiritual and political leader. 95% were owned by the 5% slavery owners. British controlled (or protected) the place for a while then handed back to Chinese opposition leader at the time.

Sorry, very busy at work, can't write a long reply. but strongly suggest you do some homework on tibetan history.

 

[robert toms]

I have read a few books on Tibet...not as it is now...but when outsiders first came there.
From their point of view,I guess that they want their lives to go on as they always have been.
The same can be said of North and South American Indians...and of Australian indiginous peoples. To hold back the European tide was mission impossible.Their lives were changed forever.
In Tibet's case it is the Chinese tide.
Thailand is an interesting case,never been colonised ,but seems to sway with the breeze.It accepts a lot that the west has to offer .
Burma ,on the other hand,had a bad colonial experience with the European users and abusers...kings deposed etc.
They have become a closed shop...I figure because of bad memories of western values.
To them this human rights,democracy push so favoured by the west is just another way to skin a cat.
And as an old bloke told me years ago there are more ways to skin a cat than trying to stuff a pound of warm butter up its rear end !

 

[chimp]

Agree, Rob.

From another point of view, Olympic has provided China an opportunity to understand better of democracy and individual freedom which are not a natural coming to this historical empire. Although Chinese approach to the Olympic is still of autocracy with training like a concentration camp and picking seeds from primary schools, opening to the world and observing the spirits of athelets from around the world is certainly an educational experience.

I guess we just have to hold a forwarding looking view on how the world proceeds. Intervention, invastion, or occupation, may it be whatever called, nobody is a fair enough judge on events that have changed so many people's lives forever. what has happened is done, the best thing one should be concerned is what is the best choice for Tibetans now. Behaviours of trying to block the torch is just pathetic.

 

[Sprinter79]

The athletes who compete don't think like this. Nor do the kids who aspire to compete and use this vision while doing the 4am early morning training sessions. And isn't it about the athletes?

FTR, I am an athlete who competes and gets up at 4am. I was at the gym this morning. The athletes are a sideshow, just like the animals at The Royal Show. The athletes want to be the best they can be, and they don't need the Olympics to do this. The Olympics were originally designed only for 'gentlemen' and were very exclusive. Winning is the most important thing in the Olympics, regardless of what else is said.

A world wide war does have an impact on a couple of issues relevant here. Even without the 'politics'.

That was in response to a previous comment that wars stop for the Olympics

Maybe the IOC thought the Chinese would raise the bar and aspire to the Olympic vision?

Cart before the horse maybe?

Dont agree, the Torch is not about China, it is the flame.

I dont think it is.
Would just like you to explore why the Flame is a fair target

You're welcome to disagree. The Torch is symbolic of China's poor efforts to reform, as was made clear to them when they were 'awarded' the games. It is an incredibly high profile media event, so anything to do with the Torch is going to be news. As such, it is a fair target.

The Dalai Lama has said that taking the Torch through Tibet would be highly insulting, so I'll go with him there :

 

[Prospector]

FTR, I am an athlete who competes and gets up at 4am. I was at the gym this morning. The athletes are a sideshow, just like the animals at The Royal Show.

Fine, so you don't like the Olympics. Your opinions don't make it any less a lifelong goal for other Olympic athletes. The athletes a sideshow? Not to themselves and not to those who watch and enjoy the events.

The Olympics should never be used for a political statement. Withdrawing from an Olympics competition for safety concerns (as in World Wars) is entirely different.

Maybe you need to have a look around your life and see how many of your possessions were made in China. Maybe even your sports clothes.

There is no country on earth that is innocent of impinging on someone's freedoms.

Like I said, I dont think the Torch is going to Tibet. Could be wrong.

 

[juw177]

The Torch is symbolic of China's poor efforts to reform

Can you be more specific on this? Have you been there before? What has China done to you besides offering you cheap consumer products that make you so bitter about them hosting Olympics?

I agree with you somewhat that the Olympics are overrated and overhyped... but it has nothing to do with China.

 

[Sprinter79]

The athletes who compete don't think like this. Nor do the kids who aspire to compete and use this vision while doing the 4am early morning training sessions. And isn't it about the athletes?



A world wide war does have an impact on a couple of issues relevant here. Even without the 'politics'.



Maybe the IOC thought the Chinese would raise the bar and aspire to the Olympic vision?



Dont agree, the Torch is not about China, it is the flame.



I dont think it is.
Would just like you to explore why the Flame is a fair target?

Fine, so you don't like the Olympics. Your opinions don't make it any less a lifelong goal for other Olympic athletes. The athletes a sideshow? Not to themselves and not to those who watch and enjoy the events.

Don't get me wrong, my goal was to compete at the Olympics. It has passed me by, ah well, **** happens. You kinda missed my point with the 'sideshow' remark though. The animals/athletes used to be what the Royal Show/Olympics were all about, but they are now just 'sideshows' to the money making add ons, such as rides/tv rights.

Why should the Olympics never be used for a political purpose? Just because you say so? The fact is, they are, have been and will continue to be used to promote agendas. The Chinese are using the Olympics to show that they have improved, whilst continuing to oppress and sweep their dirt under the rug. All the host nations do it, even we did it.

Were not The Modern Olympics started, in part, to help the French Military improve their physical condition, so they wouldn't get pumped by the Prussians again? (Didn't work very well huh...)

 

[Sprinter79]

Can you be more specific on this? Have you been there before? What has China done to you besides offering you cheap consumer products that make you so bitter about them hosting Olympics?

I'm bitter about the bidding process being corrupted by the almight dollar. I'm also concerned that they were 'awarded' the games in lieu of certain reforms, rather than waiting for solid evidence and then rewarding them.

I'm also concerned about the poor quality products coming from China that put consumers and workers at risk of death or injury. Yes, I work in OHS, and have seen plenty of dodgy products with the Made in China stamp on them.

Without going off on too much of a tangent, the wages paid to the Chinese workers in order to keep costs down and profits up should be concerning to all.

 

[juw177]

Without going off on too much of a tangent, the wages paid to the Chinese workers in order to keep costs down and profits up should be concerning to all.

You know that is not the government's fault right? Do you see a population of unskilled labor in Australia? No? Then who is going to supply our demanding lifestyle? It is the way of global economics. If the government put in a minimum wage and raised standards, the western corporations will just find another country to exploit their workers.

And they are already doing that with China's fast growing middle class. You should be happy. Education and trade has improved and the country is going through rapid modernisation. Side effect as was seen with all the other countries is that there will be people left behind which has more to do with the current protests.

 

[Prospector]

Were not The Modern Olympics started, in part, to help the French Military improve their physical condition, so they wouldn't get pumped by the Prussians again? (Didn't work very well huh...)

And we all get fat being tele-tubbies watching it! :

You are looking at it from an 'Administrators' point of view, I am looking at it from the Athletes position. However the Games came to be held in a particular country is mostly irrelevant to the athletes who have spent their childhood and young adulthood in training. They have no say on where it will be held, they most likely don't care where it will be held, they just want it to be held. Safely of course. Their training began years before the host city is announced. So it is just 'bad timing' that their 'athletic status' just happens to peak in an Olympics Year where there is some controversy surrounding the host city. Bad luck and bad timing for them.

Judging from your nick, you are involved in athletics - sprinting? A most difficult area for Australians I think.

Most purists believe that the Olympic Games should be above politics, but then again I am highly values driven.

 

[kyme]

Sprinter79, Afraid I can't agree with your comments on China.
I visited China a few years ago and extremely impressed, Very hardworking tolerant people. Best businesspeople I've come across too. I saw no religious persecution, made a point of visiting a large Catholic church off tourist beat. Amazed sitting there, I could have been back in my church at home other than hymn books and priest being Chinese.
China today is hugely different to the one of 10 years ago and ten years before that. There has been huge openings made for private enterprise and this can only continue, with resultant benefits for the people. The old idea of Communist China that many people hold, just no longer exists. In my mind, China of today is the most successful Caplitalist country on the planet. They must be doing something right, they have all the money while Austalia and USA in record debt.

 

[Sprinter79]

And we all get fat being tele-tubbies watching it! :

You are looking at it from an 'Administrators' point of view, I am looking at it from the Athletes position. However the Games came to be held in a particular country is mostly irrelevant to the athletes who have spent their childhood and young adulthood in training. They have no say on where it will be held, they most likely don't care where it will be held, they just want it to be held. Safely of course. Their training began years before the host city is announced. So it is just 'bad timing' that their 'athletic status' just happens to peak in an Olympics Year where there is some controversy surrounding the host city. Bad luck and bad timing for them.

Judging from your nick, you are involved in athletics - sprinting? A most difficult area for Australians I think.

Most purists believe that the Olympic Games should be above politics, but then again I am highly values driven.

I don't think you give the athletes enough credit here. Where it is held is of great importance to the athletes. They are of course a stakeholder in the games, and its not just the political environment that have been overlooked here. Concerns over the air quality have persisted right from the initial annoucement.

If you want evidence that the athletes are secondary to the dollar, what about the US networks changing the timing of events to suit their prime time!

 

[Sprinter79]

Sprinter79, Afraid I can't agree with your comments on China.
I visited China a few years ago and extremely impressed, Very hardworking tolerant people. Best businesspeople I've come across too. I saw no religious persecution, made a point of visiting a large Catholic church off tourist beat. Amazed sitting there, I could have been back in my church at home other than hymn books and priest being Chinese.
China today is hugely different to the one of 10 years ago and ten years before that. There has been huge openings made for private enterprise and this can only continue, with resultant benefits for the people. The old idea of Communist China that many people hold, just no longer exists. In my mind, China of today is the most successful Caplitalist country on the planet. They must be doing something right, they have all the money while Austalia and USA in record debt.

Did you spend much time out of the cities?

Did you read any articles in the newspaper that were critical of the government?

Were you allowed to use google?