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The future of energy generation and storage

We "know" about pollution but perhaps we don't fully understand how toxic the effects of millions of tons of emissions from coal fired power plants, petrol powered transport and industrial plants powered by fossil fuels. Not to mention the rest of teh toxic waste from out industrial civilisation. This is the latest most extensive analysis.

So with this reality in mind and the now cost effective clean, renewable alternatives what reasons are left for not moving ASAP to a cleaner, renewable energy future ?

Global pollution kills millions and threatens 'survival of human societies'
Landmark study finds toxic air, water, soils and workplaces kill at least 9m people and cost trillions of dollars every year


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A Bangladeshi rickshaw puller rides past smoke created by burning waste materials on a street in Dhaka. Photograph: Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

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Damian Carrington Environment editor


@dpcarrington

Thursday 19 October 2017 23.30 BST Last modified on Friday 20 October 2017 02.18 BST

Pollution kills at least nine million people and costs trillions of dollars every year, according to the most comprehensive global analysis to date, which warns the crisis “threatens the continuing survival of human societies”.

Toxic air, water, soils and workplaces are responsible for the diseases that kill one in every six people around the world, the landmark report found, and the true total could be millions higher because the impact of many pollutants are poorly understood. The deaths attributed to pollution are triple those from Aids, malaria and tuberculosis combined.

The vast majority of the pollution deaths occur in poorer nations and in some, such as India, Chad and Madagascar, pollution causes a quarter of all deaths. The international researchers said this burden is a hugely expensive drag on developing economies.

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Pollution responsible for quarter of deaths of young children, says WHO
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Rich nations still have work to do to tackle pollution: the US and Japan are in the top 10 for deaths from “modern” forms of pollution, ie fossil fuel-related air pollution and chemical pollution. But the scientists said that the big improvements that have been made in developed nations in recent decades show that beating pollution is a winnable battle if there is the political will.

“Pollution is one of the great existential challenges of the [human-dominated] Anthropocene era,” concluded the authors of the Commission on Pollution and Health, published in the Lancet on Friday. “Pollution endangers the stability of the Earth’s support systems and threatens the continuing survival of human societies.”

Prof Philip Landrigan, at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, US, who co-led the commission, said: “We fear that with nine million deaths a year, we are pushing the envelope on the amount of pollution the Earth can carry.” For example, he said, air pollution deaths in south-east Asia are on track to double by 2050.

Landrigan said the scale of deaths from pollution had surprised the researchers and that two other “real shockers” stood out. First was how quickly modern pollution deaths were rising, while “traditional” pollution deaths – from contaminated water and wood cooking fires – were falling as development work bears fruit.

“Secondly, we hadn’t really got our minds around how much pollution is not counted in the present tally,” he said. “The current figure of nine million is almost certainly an underestimate, probably by several million.”

This is because scientists are still discovering links between pollution and ill health, such as the connection between air pollution and dementia, diabetes and kidney disease. Furthermore, lack of data on many toxic metals and chemicals could not be included in the new analysis.

The researchers estimated the welfare losses from pollution at $4.6tn a year, equivalent to more than 6% of global GDP. “Those costs are so massive they can drag down the economy of countries that are trying to get ahead,” said Landrigan. “We always hear ‘we can’t afford to clean up pollution’ – I say we can’t afford not to clean it up.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-millions-threatens-survival-human-societies
 
We have enough gas offshore. No need to put our agricultural land at risk.

It should of been a condition of granting approval for places like Gorgon and Gladstone that domestic supply is guaranteed at a maximum of market price (probably should be guaranteed at a discount to the marker price to stimulate the rest of our economy) . These projects are so big and will generate huge profits, there is enough fat to secure the domestic market at good prices and for the companies to generate profits
 
We have enough gas offshore. No need to put our agricultural land at risk.

It should of been a condition of granting approval for places like Gorgon and Gladstone that domestic supply is guaranteed at a maximum of market price (probably should be guaranteed at a discount to the marker price to stimulate the rest of our economy) . These projects are so big and will generate huge profits, there is enough fat to secure the domestic market at good prices and for the companies to generate profits

Basic economics of it mean that domestic supply will always be available at a rate lower than export rates.

It costs money to freeze the gas, load it on a ship and sail the ship to china, So when deciding to divert gas into the Australian pipelines or to a ship, Australian pipelines will always have a pricing advantage, local users will always be able to under cut the export market by the amount of the shipping costs.

There is no doubt that supply issues are due to groups making it difficult to drill in qld and nsw, not because of any geological limit we have reached.

two things need to happen.

1, Drillers need to be allowed to drill.

2, Local users need to accept the market price, they still have the advantage, its just the spread has narrowed.
 
But that is simply not happening. Australian gas is cheaper overseas than it is domestically, that's a fact.

Have you got a link to that information? you aren't comparing retail Australian rates to wholesale export rates are you?

the only way I can see that happening is if you are talking about an old contract that locked in a lower pricing model before the government and protestors restricted new supply coming on.

Any new supply contracts being negotiated would be at market rates, where domestic users have the advantage.

Think about it, if you are in the business of selling baked beans,

and a guy in china is willing to pay you $1 per tin, but you have to pay 10cents shipping, while I am sitting next to you also willing to pay 92 cents for the tin, you are much better off selling it to me.

off course it costs money to ship gas through Australian pipelines also, But foreign users still face those costs to after the gas hits their shores.
 
Why do they need to accept it? Many markets are manipulated why should this one not be manipulated to assist the economy

What makes this the best market to manipulate?

Can you think of any other commodity where a shortage has been fixed by holding prices down?

Supply and demand 101 - higher prices facilitate a surge of investment in new supply, thus ending a shortage,

Ofcourse that can only happen if the new supply isn't curtailed by alarmist protestors and reactionary knee jerk political decisions.
 
Value Collector said:
Ofcourse that can only happen if the new supply isn't curtailed by alarmist protestors and reactionary knee jerk political decisions.

Fracking can have serious consequences for the environment. There should be restrictions but not necessarily a blanket ban.
 

You should try to do some real research.

As I thought, you have been reading bogus claims that compare "Retail Australian Prices" to the "Whole international price"

check out this chart.

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/International_gas_price_comparisons.jpg

International_gas_price_comparisons.jpg


In recent weeks, several politicians, commentators, industry bodies and activist groups have repeated an Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis claim that domestic customers pay 65 per cent more for Australian gas than Japanese customers do.

This is simply not true.

Australian domestic gas prices are NOT higher than prices prevailing in Australia’s major LNG export markets – let alone double the overseas prices.

A respected consultancy, EnergyQuest, has shown that the household cost numbers cited by the IEEFA make no sense.

A price of $A8.42/GJ in Japan is about the same as the price of Australian LNG on delivery to Japan – not the price of gas supplied to households. In August, Tokyo Gas was actually charging a standard residential customer $A41.67/GJ.

The IEEFA is comparing retail prices to wholesale prices – or apples to oranges.

Industrial gas prices in Japan, Korea and China are also much higher than in Australia. Yet an ABC report on 1 August quoted the Australian Industry Group as saying “Asian manufacturers can now buy Australian gas at half the price local manufacturers are paying”.

All Japanese gas is imported as LNG. In June 2016, the average import price of Australian LNG before regasification and transmission to local customers was about $A8.68/GJ. Tokyo Gas quotes the price for industrial customers as being ¥30/cubic metre or $A10.45/GJ.

Similarly, prices for Korean industrial customers were $A16.65/GJ in Q1 2016 and in August Chinese prices ranged between $A11.48 and $A26.69/GJ. These are much higher than Australian prices.

In its comprehensive east coast gas market inquiry, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission recently found: “Some users raised concerns in the course of the Inquiry that domestic prices in the east coast gas market were now higher than gas prices paid by overseas users purchasing LNG on international markets. The evidence obtained by the Inquiry does not support these claims — domestic gas prices in the east coast gas market are still generally lower than prices paid by overseas users that purchase LNG.” (p 36)


https://www.appea.com.au/2016/08/the-truth-about-domestic-and-export-gas-prices/
 
It is very clear that 'market competition' and a lack of regulation in the energy sector simply isn't working. We have access to vast natural resources, yet have some of the highest energy prices in the world..... I'm not happy lining the pockets of AGL just for the sake of the free market. How is competition amongst energy retailers supposed to benefit the consumer: THEY ARE ALL SELLING AN IDENTICAL PRODUCT.

Electricity is a basic need and we have an abundance of resources, which should result in very cheap power prices, and a therefore thriving economy.

The current system is very very broke, and if it takes Government intervention to change that, then so be it.

The Government has invested vast swathes of public money in coal power plants in the past, why can't we invest vast amounts in renewable projects today?? Sell them off at completion if need be, but just get the ball rolling, and fast. Build some large, large scale solar farms. Invest in a new Hydro project, with storage. Let Elon Musk move out to rural Vic and set up one of his solar factories.

Do Something!
 
Logic says that gas would be cheaper in Australia than overseas given the significant cost of liquefaction and shipping.

In reality however there are large buyers in Australia finding they either can't get a long term supply at any reasonable price or at best it's at a price higher than that prevailing in international markets.

So what should logically apply isn't happening in price it seems.

Who?

Rio Tinto have publicly said they're having trouble getting any long term supply contracts for some of their operations.

It's public knowledge that Hydro Tasmania has been trying to do a deal for quite some time at a price that would make Tamar Valley power station, the most efficient gas-fired plant in the National Electricity Market, viable to operate on a permanent basis so as to supply additional electricity from Tas to Vic. In the absence of a suitable deal Hydro will just keep the plant as a backup and operate it if either gas versus electricity spot prices happen to be favourable at any given time or if there's a problem with power supply in Tas (the latter being possible but the probability in % terms is pretty low).

AGL have gone as far as seriously pursuing a proposal to import LNG as a lower cost and more abundant alternative to trying to get enough gas from Australian producers at a price that's cheaper than imports + the cost of the facilities AGL will need to build to make imported LNG a workable option.

These 3 are all significant businesses not just some random operator. Two are big cap stocks listed on the ASX and the other has the backing of a state government in addition to $ billions worth of assets. Not certain about Rio Tinto but the other two have both been around more than a century. So nobody can say they're not creditworthy etc.

The problem is real unfortunately.
 
As I thought, you have been reading bogus claims that compare "Retail Australian Prices" to the "Whole international price"

check out this chart.

Appea "the voice of the Australian Oil and Gas industry".

No bias there then ?

So you don't see a problem with comparing a retail rate of gas delivered to an Australian household, (e.g. that includes taxes, retailer profit margin, distribution fees etc) to the price at which the gas is unloaded at the docks in Japan?
 
In reality however there are large buyers in Australia finding they either can't get a long term supply at any reasonable price or at best it's at a price higher than that prevailing in international markets.

So what should logically apply isn't happening in price it seems.

.


yep, and thats due to new supply being curtailed, as the export contracts expire they will face the same issue.
 
What makes this the best market to manipulate?

Can you think of any other commodity where a shortage has been fixed by holding prices down?

Supply and demand 101 - higher prices facilitate a surge of investment in new supply, thus ending a shortage,

Ofcourse that can only happen if the new supply isn't curtailed by alarmist protestors and reactionary knee jerk political decisions.

I have no doubt GLOBAL demand will stay high and prices will react accordingly. Australia is a spec on the demand side but we have huge gas deposits. I doubt securing a below market price deal for our own gas would change price globally or the profitability of the big players
 
I have no doubt GLOBAL demand will stay high and prices will react accordingly. Australia is a spec on the demand side but we have huge gas deposits. I doubt securing a below market price deal for our own gas would change price globally or the profitability of the big players

Individual projects will need to compete for capital, if you want private industry to produce the gas supply,

1, they have to be allowed to produce.

2, they need a decent return on capital or the investment funds will head to other oil and gas fields.

if the producers are having trouble getting projects started due to greens, and then get told the projects that do go ahead have price limits, they will not bother.
 
So you don't see a problem with comparing a retail rate of gas delivered to an Australian household, (e.g. that includes taxes, retailer profit margin, distribution fees etc) to the price at which the gas is unloaded at the docks in Japan?

Regardless of what spin you put on it, it comes down to this

Japan is our biggest buyer. Businesses there have been reportedly able to buy Australian gas at around half the price to that available to Australian manufacturers.

So that is cost to the end user.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-...australia-than-in-export-destinations/7680106
 
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