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The future of energy generation and storage

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sptrawler said:
Also Government = cheap and Private = dear, is usually the case. This is due to any profit, being returned to consolidated revenue, where as with private the profit is returned to shareholders..
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Not really, there are examples of private systems that are much cheaper than a lot of the state owned peers.

Also, if the government system is cheap because it is being subsidised it's not really cheap.

Governments have a way of under charging consumers for years, while letting assets depreciate, then when they need to be replaced, they are counted as new investments and funded by new debt, and then those assets get depreciated while consumers are under charged, never actually retuning any "profit" to reduce the loans incurred, thats subsidy.

Telstra is a good example, over the 20years or so since its been private costs have fallen. Today you pay less than you probably did 20 years ago, and get more.
 
SirRumpole said:
So we should have medicines charged at their full price ?

The idea of subsidisation of essentials is that everyone gets a fair share of the cake.
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Healthcare is different, but even with electricity I have no problem with those in need e.g. the elderly, disabled, single mums, unemployed and those down on their luck being subsidised directly, but I don't think the government should be subsidising the cost of electricity through blanket measures.

I think the users of the energy should pay a fair rate for the service that covers its costs and a reasonable return to those that have capital invested (even if that is the state)
 
Value Collector said:
Healthcare is different, but even with electricity I have no problem with those in need e.g. the elderly, disabled, single mums, unemployed and those down on their luck being subsidised directly, but I don't think the government should be subsidising the cost of electricity through blanket measures.

I think the users of the energy should pay a fair rate for the service that covers its costs and a reasonable return to those that have capital invested (even if that is the state)
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On the contrary, subsidising the cost of electricity helps the economy because the less people have to pay for it the more they can spend on other things and so other business get the benefit of low electricity costs. It's in the national interest to have power costs as low as possible to maintain national competitiveness and ensure that money keeps flowing around the whole economy.
 
SirRumpole said:
On the contrary, subsidising the cost of electricity helps the economy because the less people have to pay for it the more they can spend on other things and so other business get the benefit of low electricity costs. It's in the national interest to have power costs as low as possible to maintain national competitiveness and ensure that money keeps flowing around the whole economy.
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Either way someone is paying the full cost of it, either the people who are getting the benefit from it e.g. user pays, or we socialise the costs and those of us in businesses and homes that use less subsidise those that use more.

We can socialise the cost of running Aluminium smelters and Google data centres probably owned by overseas companies paying little tax here if you want, we can add an electricity levy to our taxes along with the medicare care levy and see how it goes, I am not convinced it would work out well.

But going by your theory why don't we subsidise everything, lets subsidise steel production, plastic production, glass, timber, bricks, concrete, petrol and diesel, rice you name it, would that be good for the economy.

Do you think the government should pay say 10% of the cost of every litre of unleaded and diesel used in Australia?
 
Value Collector said:
Do you think the government should pay say 10% of the cost of every litre of unleaded and diesel used in Australia?
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In effect government pays a subsidy to every business expense in this country, they are called tax deductions, something to which the general consumer has no access to. So if business gets a subsidy I see no reason why everyone else shouldn't get one either.

The point is, electricity is an essential input to every person or business, whereas I don't have to eat rice if I don't want to.
 
SirRumpole said:
In effect government pays a subsidy to every business expense in this country, they are called tax deductions, something to which the general consumer has no access to.
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Every single person that pays tax can claim deductions for expenses they had to pay to earn that revenue/profit.

It's not a subsidy, its just part of the concept of taxing Profits not revenue.

e.g. Company sells $1000 worth of bricks, but it cost it $400 for materials, It can a deduction for the $400 so It only pays tax on the $600 profit.

thats not a subsidy, a subsidy would be the government reducing the price of the materials, or providing a bonus payment of some sort.

The point is, electricity is an essential input to every person or business, whereas I don't have to eat rice if I don't want to.
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Some businesses use a lot more than others, But so is Diesel, so should we subsidise diesel?
 
Value Collector said:
Some businesses use a lot more than others, But so is Diesel, so should we subsidise diesel?
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Electricity is not just another commodity , it's an essential service whose price should be kept as low as possible.

Smurf has pointed out how this has been achieved in the past and the fact that we now have one of the most expensive electricity infrastructure in the world means that the current (no pun intended) system is cr@p.
 
Value Collector said:
Not really, there are examples of private systems that are much cheaper than a lot of the state owned peers.

Also, if the government system is cheap because it is being subsidised it's not really cheap.

Governments have a way of under charging consumers for years, while letting assets depreciate, then when they need to be replaced, they are counted as new investments and funded by new debt, and then those assets get depreciated while consumers are under charged, never actually retuning any "profit" to reduce the loans incurred, thats subsidy.

Telstra is a good example, over the 20years or so since its been private costs have fallen. Today you pay less than you probably did 20 years ago, and get more.
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Is that due to privatisation, or due to the ACCC allowing access to Telstra's infrastructure, which the public paid for.
The overseas companies didn't have the cost of the capital outlay, they just had to install equipment in Telstra exchanges, then they could offer the service at a much reduced price.
To say privatising Telstra drove down prices, is a bit of a con.
In a way the public is being taxed twice, for the infrastructure, they have paid for.
The public paid for Telstras infrastructure, but were receiving a dividend, due to Telstras profits.
The Government sold of Telstra, and allowed overseas telecom companies cheap access, to the existing infrastructure.
Now the public is being taxed again, to replace the privatised infrastructure, so the private companies have a better product to sell back to the public.
So with the NBN, the public are replacing the system they paid for originally, so that the private telco companies don't have to pay for it, sounds like a great scam to me.

It is just another case of "rope the dope".
 
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sptrawler said:
So your tesla requires diesel?
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Yeah, if it is being charged with coal fired electricity, the coal won't dig itself up, the diggers and dump trucks are all diesel powered ( for now atleast)

In regards to Telstra, even with twenty years of inflation, calls are cheaper, and they have been paying dividends to share holders for 20 years, while also building mobile phone towers like crazy
 
Value Collector said:
In regards to Telstra, even with twenty years of inflation, calls are cheaper, and they have been paying dividends to share holders for 20 years, while also building mobile phone towers like crazy
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Sounds like the general public were ripped off again, and shareholders walk away laughing.
 
Smurf1976 said:
Then there's the human side to it all. It's inevitable that, a few weeks from now, we'll be hearing plenty of stories about people receiving massive electricity or gas bills. Winter is the season of highest total consumption in many areas and with the recent price jumps it's going to have a pretty big impact on many.
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Different from State to State. Southern States for sure keeping warm but up here in Qld. Winter time is occasionally cold along the coast. April to October are the least cost period because I don't need a heater. Air cooling conditioners are the largest energy drain in late Spring, Summer and Autumn. Electricity bills can be several hundred more in these months but that is Qld.
Overall it just saddens me that heating a house, having a hot shower without using an egg timer and cooking dinner is fast becoming a symbol of wealth rather than the taken for granted entitlement it was not too long ago. This just shouldn't be a problem in a country with such an abundance of resources.
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When things are cheaper people tend to be even more wasteful than usual so considering energy consumption is generally a good thing I reckon.
It would be bad enough if the situation had arisen due to unavoidable factors. That it happened for no reason other than the blind pursuit of ideology is just ridiculous.:mad:
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Yes the gas shortage issue is an oversight. It seems the numbers didn't stack up as far as adequate supply for the new LNG industry.
 
Value Collector said:
Yeah, if it is being charged with coal fired electricity, the coal won't dig itself up, the diggers and dump trucks are all diesel powered ( for now atleast)

In regards to Telstra, even with twenty years of inflation, calls are cheaper, and they have been paying dividends to share holders for 20 years, while also building mobile phone towers like crazy
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The last few with gifted public money via the snout in trough NBN monopoly granted them by the current ruling class in Canberra. I'm surprised the cost is only twice the original taxpayer estimated contribution. Now if the LNP could only find a national infrastructure bonanza for Myer shares:rolleyes:
 
I am n
Tisme said:
The last few with gifted public money via the snout in trough NBN monopoly granted them by the current ruling class in Canberra. I'm surprised the cost is only twice the original taxpayer estimated contribution. Now if the LNP could only find a national infrastructure bonanza for Myer shares:rolleyes:
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I am not a Telstra or NBN expert, but apparently the NBN build out is putting downward pressure on Telstra dividends.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...e/news-story/db7d31d4fb9250eff096c9f2411367c2
 

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