The future of energy generation and storage

[Wysiwyg]

In Australia, almost all power for electric cars has the potential to be free, after installation and maintenance costs.

Yes the home solar array charging the home battery pack which can both power the home and charge the vehicle.

Using a Battery-Backed Solar System
With a battery-backed system, it’s entirely possible to charge your electric vehicle soley from the sun’s rays. This is because during the day your home will use solar energy and any excess will feed into your battery’s energy supply. Long after the sun goes down, you’ll still be enjoying the sun’s ability to provide energy for your home. Now, keep in mind that to truly be “off-grid” and avoid using any energy from your local utility it is likely that you’ll need a sizable solar array and a meaty battery system.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes the home solar array charging the home battery pack which can both power the home and charge the vehicle.

Unless you want to use your vehicle during the day.

 

[sptrawler]

Not to mention the elephant in the room with hydrogen is that it is only economical when its sourced from natural gas.

Again, Your "Hydrogen" answer is only viable when linked to Natural gas.
.

I don't understand what you mean by that?

In electrolysis, electricity is run through water to separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. This method can use wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, fossil fuels, biomass, nuclear, and many other energy sources.

As I said earlier, when there is sufficient excess renewable generation, the excess can be used to produce hydrogen, at no cost.

Also as I said earlier, it is a far more flexible energy source, than batteries. it can also be used in its raw state.

 

[CanOz]

Unless you want to use your vehicle during the day.

Charge at night....use back and forth to work or shopping....whatever....400 + kms lasts me two weeks.

 

[sptrawler]

I have a Tesla Model 3 Reservation, Probably won't get it till the end of next year. The first model 3 destined for consumers only rolled off the production line on Friday, and there are about 400,000 reservations in front of me.

Ah, now I understand where you are coming from, insufficient positive reinforcement.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Of course the other issue is left over product, with batteries there is still a waste of resources, in the manufacture and when it has finished its usefull life. ( I know they recycle, but that isn't 100% efficient either).

The mining of oil/gas and minerals is required to create anything for modern human so there is also that on going affect.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Unless you want to use your vehicle during the day.

The battery storage can do the night. Here is the link to the article I referred to. There is some math under the map half way down the page so the battery capacity would obviuosly be relevant.
https://understandsolar.com/how-many-solar-panels-to-charge-an-electric-car/

 

[Wysiwyg]

This subject interests me but won't be near term necessary with an annual non solar electricity bill of around 1000 dollars (average 250 qtr.).

 

[Value Collector]

Research it, all commercially viable hydrogen production uses natural gas as a feed stock.

Sourcing hydrogen by using water electrolysis is a very expensive and inefficient use of the electricity.

As I said earlier, you could charge an ev multiple times with the amount of electricity it would take to make the hydrogen to fuel a car just once.

This was actually brought up in that video you linked the other day.

 

[Value Collector]

Ah, now I understand where you are coming from, insufficient positive reinforcement.

Nice try, I don't need any more positive reinforcement than the facts.

 

[Value Collector]

How much are they ?

Base model starts at $35,000 USD.

Final price will depend on the exchange rate an the options I select. I will be doing the autopilot upgrade and the larger battery, so I am guessing it will be somewhere between $50k and $65k.

 

[Value Collector]

Why hydrogen isn't the next big thing.

 

[Smurf1976]

Research it, all commercially viable hydrogen production uses natural gas as a feed stock.

The electrolysis route has been used commercially in the past, including not far from where I'm sitting right now, but the overwhelming majority of current production is based on natural gas certainly as that's a far cheaper way of doing it.

The problem with the electrolysis approach is that that you're starting with a relatively high cost input (electricity) and then losing part of that in the production of hydrogen. In contrast natural gas is a far cheaper feedstock.

The electrolysis approach really only stacks up at present where you need relatively small quantities of hydrogen for some specific purpose other than as bulk energy source, in which case the electricity to make the hydrogen is really just another cost input to the industrial process. Other than that, it really only works if you've got cheap electricity (eg hydro), no natural gas and are making a product (eg fertilizer) protected from import competition from places that do have natural gas.

A long time ago there was a plant in Hobart producing ammonium fertilizers using electricity as the feedstock. Opened in the 1950's and at that time it was viable due to (1) cheap electricity and (2) no competition from fertilizer production from natural gas, noting that there was no significant natural gas industry in Australia at the time.

Then along came natural gas in Brisbane in the 1960's from Roma and an associated fertilizer plant. Ultimately that was the beginning of the end for use of the electrolysis route to hydrogen in order to make fertilizer in Australia.

The plant in Hobart didn't officially close until the mid-1980's although production was minimal in the latter years (it really only ran if there was surplus power that would otherwise go to waste, a situation that was pretty common in the 1970's but pretty much non-existent by 1983).

Fueling cars isn't making fertilizer obviously but ultimately it's still commercial production of hydrogen. Electrolysis can certainly do it but natural gas is the cheaper way at present.

 

[SirRumpole]

Base model starts at $35,000 USD.

Final price will depend on the exchange rate an the options I select. I will be doing the autopilot upgrade and the larger battery, so I am guessing it will be somewhere between $50k and $65k.

Quite a bit cheaper than I thought it would be.

 

[sptrawler]

Base model starts at $35,000 USD.

Final price will depend on the exchange rate an the options I select. I will be doing the autopilot upgrade and the larger battery, so I am guessing it will be somewhere between $50k and $65k.

I'm also shocked, from what I've read, that isn't much more than the cost of the batteries.

 

[sptrawler]

The electrolysis route has been used commercially in the past, including not far from where I'm sitting right now, but the overwhelming majority of current production is based on natural gas certainly as that's a far cheaper way of doing it.

The problem with the electrolysis approach is that that you're starting with a relatively high cost input (electricity) and then losing part of that in the production of hydrogen. In contrast natural gas is a far cheaper feedstock.

We were producing hydrogen from electrolysis, at Muja, when I was an apprentice and that was a long time ago.
Like I said earlier, it will only become viable, when there is a major swing toward renewables.

They are using natural gas currently, but when that is depleted which in real terms wont take long, a man made replacement fuel will be required.

Hydrogen IMO is the only clean fuel, other than nuclear, that I can see on the horizon.
Batteries just seem to be bogged down, with chemical reaction and the associated mass required to store it.
If they can better develop the battery/capacitor hybrid technology, where the rapid charge of the capacitor and the energy density of a battery can be mated, they may have something.
But I still feel the versatility and sustainability, of hydrogen, will win the day.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm also shocked, from what I've read, that isn't much more than the cost of the batteries.

Tesla have said their production costs for the batteries is about $125 per KWh, so for a 70Kwh hour battery (which is average size for a tesla vehicle) they battery cost would be under $9000 USD.

 

[Value Collector]

We were producing hydrogen from electrolysis, at Muja, when I was an apprentice and that was a long time ago.
Like I said earlier, it will only become viable, when there is a major swing toward renewables.

They are using natural gas currently, but when that is depleted which in real terms wont take long, a man made replacement fuel will be required.

Hydrogen IMO is the only clean fuel, other than nuclear, that I can see on the horizon.
Batteries just seem to be bogged down, with chemical reaction and the associated mass required to store it.
If they can better develop the battery/capacitor hybrid technology, where the rapid charge of the capacitor and the energy density of a battery can be mated, they may have something.
But I still feel the versatility and sustainability, of hydrogen, will win the day.

Hydrogen isn't a "clean fuel" it is just a way of storing energy, you still require an energy source, just like you do for charging a battery.

Getting hydrogen from electricity doesn't solve any problems because it is still a very inefficient use of that electricity.

For example, a hydrogen car is still an electric car, it's just that rather than get the electricity from a battery, it has a tank of flammable gas, which it pumps through a fuel cell, to create a current that runs the electric motor that powers the car.

Electric vehicles system,

Produce electricity - charge battery- battery powers motor

Hydrogen vehicle system,

Produce electricity - pass electricity through water- capture and compress hydrogen- load onto tanker truck- transport to filling station- fill cars tank- pass hydrogen through fuel cell- fuel cell powers motor.

Now before you even factor in the cost of transport etc, you have to realise that you could charge 3 electric cars directly with the amount of power needed to produce the hydrogen for just one car.

 

[DB008]

Shell Plans to Spend $1 Billion a Year on Clean Energy by 2020​

Royal Dutch Shell Plc plans to spend as much as $1 billion a year on its New Energies division as the transition toward renewable power and electric cars accelerates.

“In some parts of the world we are beginning to see battery electric cars starting to gain consumer acceptance” while wind and solar costs are falling fast, Shell CEO Ben Van Beurden said in a speech in Istanbul on Monday. “All of this is good news for the world and must accelerate,” while still offering opportunities for producers of fossil fuels.

Shell sees opportunities in hydrogen fuel-cells, liquefied natural gas and next-generation biofuels for air travel, shipping and heavy freight -- areas of transport for which batteries aren’t adequate. The intermittent nature of wind and solar energy means power plants fired by natural gas will have a long-term role, Van Beurden said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-10/shell-plans-to-spend-1-billion-a-year-on-clean-energy-by-2020​

 

[sptrawler]

Hydrogen isn't a "clean fuel" it is just a way of storing energy, you still require an energy source, just like you do for charging a battery.

Getting hydrogen from electricity doesn't solve any problems because it is still a very inefficient use of that electricity.

For example, a hydrogen car is still an electric car, it's just that rather than get the electricity from a battery, it has a tank of flammable gas, which it pumps through a fuel cell, to create a current that runs the electric motor that powers the car.

The thing with hydrogen, it can be used as you suggest above, but it also can be used by direct injection into an internal combustion engine, the same as lpg.
Also it can be used to run jet engines or rockets.
The only difficulty with hydrogen, at this point in time, is the amount of electricity required to produce it.
This won't be an issue when we have ample renewable energy.