The future of energy generation and storage

[sptrawler]

I don't see this issue with infrastructure.....isn't it just plugging the car into a power socket?

If it was that easy everyone would have one, the issue is time taken to charge the battery, distance the battery can propel the car and how long the battery will last, before it requires replacing.
When those problems are solved, EV's are a winner.
At this point in time H2 fuel cells, have more scope for development. Just my opinion.

 

[SirRumpole]

This all seems to be getting a bit defeatist.

People seem to equate electric vehicle infrastructure with just adding a few power points here and there.

The electricity has to be generated. It was estimated that about 20 nuclear power stations would need to be built to supply all the electric cars in Britain assuming they were all electric. That means about 5 here. Expecting renewables to carry that load is wishful thinking imo.

Anyway, maybe it can be done. My argument goes back to the banning of alternatives and the restriction of choice on consumers. You don't have a problem with that, that's up to you. I do have a problem with being dictated to by elected representatives.

 

[SirRumpole]

the issue is time taken to charge the battery, distance the battery can propel the car and how long the battery will last, before it requires replacing.

And how much it actually costs to charge the battery. When the elcos have the customers hooked, it's charge through the nose lads ! (Pun intended).

 

[Value Collector]

If it was that easy everyone would have one, the issue is time taken to charge the battery, distance the battery can propel the car and how long the battery will last, before it requires replacing.
When those problems are solved, EV's are a winner.
At this point in time H2 fuel cells, have more scope for development. Just my opinion.

Teslas model 3 will get a bit over 400KM's per charge. (heaps especially when you wake up ever morning with a full charge)

The Battery will last longer than the expected life of the vehicle.

Long distance driving possible with 20 min chargers on the super charge network.

 

[Value Collector]

So what is your plan for generating the power to charge these vehicles ?

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There is already quite a lot of spare capacity in the network, only peak loads at certain times of the day at certain times of year are a problem, but battery large amounts of charging can be managed to utilise current unused capacity.

How much extra will be required ? How much will it cost ? How many more power stations do we need to build ?

With the utilisation of current unused capacity, plus further introduction of roof solar and other renewables, there won't be a problem.

There are plenty of companies out their willing to invest large mounts of money into the grid and generation if the returns are resonable.

I don't think you have thought it all through, if you had you would have realised that hybrids are a better way to go. They generate their own electricity which means owners are not dependent on finding a charging station,

Which Hybrid are you talking about that doesn't require either a charging or a filling station.

 

[McLovin]

People seem to equate electric vehicle infrastructure with just adding a few power points here and there.

A the moment, it is exactly that.

Expecting renewables to carry that load is wishful thinking imo.

Maybe. I doubt it though. It's not as though anyone in Australia has actually tried. If Germany can be 100% renewable for domestic supply now on a sunny day, I wouldn't want to be betting on it not being achievable in 10-20 years in a country bathed in sunshine like Australia.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is already quite a lot of spare capacity in the network,

I don't think you have been reading Surf's comments about the shaky state of our generating system. A lot of it is falling apart at the seams and is ready to be retired with little sign of replacement. A massive investment will be required to satisfy current demand without considering the extra load of EV's.

Power prices are going through the roof now, I'd hate to be charging my car every night as well.

 

[sptrawler]

Teslas model 3 will get a bit over 400KM's per charge. (heaps especially when you wake up ever morning with a full charge)

The Battery will last longer than the expected life of the vehicle.

Long distance driving possible with 20 min chargers on the super charge network.

I think they are great, just not the long term answer, with current technology.
Hopefully there is a breakthrough with hybrid battery/capacitor technology, then a lot of the current issues disappear.
When we have enough installed renewable energy capacity, in our electrical grid network, there will be an excess capacity for a majority of the time as happens now.
Then that excess capacity can be used to produce hydrogen, which in turn is a ultra clean fuel, that can be used in all forms of transport.
It can be used to power turbines for generation backup or turbines in aircraft, it can also power cars, trucks etc.
The downside with hydrogen at this point in time, is the use of fossil fuel to produce it, once it can be produced and compressed with total renewable generation it becomes the ultimate fuel.IMO

 

[Value Collector]

I don't think you have been reading Surf's comments about the shaky state of our generating system. A lot of it is falling apart at the seams and is ready to be retired with little sign of replacement. A massive investment will be required to satisfy current demand without considering the extra load of EV's.

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Thats not because the gris is impractical or because there is a lack of people willing to make longterm investments, it's because there is a lack clarity in the future Penalities that a volatile government / public will want to put on fossil fuels.

Power prices are going through the roof now, I'd hate to be charging my car every night as well

Expecting renewables to carry that load is wishful thinking imo.

What is crazy is the two opposing arguments are being used against the grid.

1, People say that roof top solar is going to kill demand for the grid longterm, which will raise the cost of the grid due to the high fixed costs being spread among less people due to lower utilisation rates

2, People say EV's will cause such high demand for the grid that the grid won't cope and the high utilisation will cause prices to rise.

Now, which is it?

I think it is somewhere right down the middle.

1, Roof top solar and more efficient techs will reduce conventional demand on external generation sources

2, EV's will gradually come in and fill this gap bringing on more demand, at flexible usage times, meaning grid generators can use their latent capacity more effectively spreading fixed costs across more consumers.

3, Grid Batteries/ other storage, will allow the grid to cope with peak loads, while maintaining smaller generating capacity, and outside "peak" season the batteries can pay for themselves by time of day arbitrage of electricity sales and purchases.

 

[sptrawler]

If Germany can be 100% renewable for domestic supply now on a sunny day, I wouldn't want to be betting on it not being achievable in 10-20 years in a country bathed in sunshine like Australia.

It still comes back to storage and spinning reserve capacity, renewables (sun, wind) in themselves don't have storage and or inertia.

 

[Value Collector]

When we have enough installed renewable energy capacity, in our electrical grid network, there will be an excess capacity for a majority of the time as happens now.
Then that excess capacity can be used to produce hydrogen, which in turn is a ultra clean fuel, that can be used in all forms of transport.

You are far better just using that electricity to charge batteries.

The amount of electricity it would take to produce the Hydrogen to just run one vehicle, is roughly the amount of electricity it would take to charge 3 EV's.

Not to mention the storage and transport of the hydrogen via tanker trucks and service stations.

 

[sptrawler]

Thats not because the gris is impractical or because there is a lack of people willing to make longterm investments, it's because there is a lack clarity in the future Penalities that a volatile government / public will want to put on fossil fuels.



What is crazy is the two opposing arguments are being used against the grid.

1, People say that roof top solar is going to kill demand for the grid longterm, which will raise the cost of the grid due to the high fixed costs being spread among less people due to lower utilisation rates

2, People say EV's will cause such high demand for the grid that the grid won't cope and the high utilisation will cause prices to rise.

Now, which is it?

I think it is somewhere right down the middle.

1, Roof top solar and more efficient techs will reduce conventional demand on external generation sources

2, EV's will gradually come in and fill this gap bringing on more demand, at flexible usage times, meaning grid generators can use their latent capacity more effectively spreading fixed costs across more consumers.

3, Grid Batteries/ other storage, will allow the grid to cope with peak loads, while maintaining smaller generating capacity, and outside "peak" season the batteries can pay for themselves by time of day arbitrage of electricity sales and purchases.

The problem is, it is ideologically driven, with passionate followers having the ear of the media. who have a vested interest in causing turmoil.
The practical problem that is obvious, is the massive amount of money required to change technologies and if it isn't done in a technically based manner, it costs a fortune ala S.A.
This cost is worn by the everyday people, not the politicians, they just wallow around in their own egos.
Everyone needs to take a deep breath IMO, we are way too focused on, renewable energy and other non critical issues.
The massive issue for Australia, is how are we going to pay for it all, when we can't even pay for what we are doing already.
Living standards are dropping and all we do is stick more on the wish list, it is about time someone turned the debate around, to how are the general public going to pay for it. Again just my opinion

 

[SirRumpole]

I think it is somewhere right down the middle.

You are probably right as long as we don't get a Tony Abbott in government who will kill the solar PV industry as well as the renewable industry in general.

Idiots passing around lumps of coal in Parliament are not going to go anywhere near solving the problem.

 

[sptrawler]

You are far better just using that electricity to charge batteries.

The amount of electricity it would take to produce the Hydrogen to just run one vehicle, is roughly the amount of electricity it would take to charge 3 EV's.

Not to mention the storage and transport of the hydrogen via tanker trucks and service stations.

Yes, but the outcome is far better, also as I said the excess power generation is lost, if it isn't stored.
Hydrogen is a far more versatile fuel than a battery, it can power an existing internal combustion engine, it can fuel a jet engine, it can power a rocket, it can even be converted back to electricity with a fuel cell.

Batteries are a great storage medium, but they are heavy and can only run an electric motor.
They are the immediate answer, but it is a stopgap and really only suitable for vehicles. IMO.

Of course the other issue is left over product, with batteries there is still a waste of resources, in the manufacture and when it has finished its usefull life. ( I know they recycle, but that isn't 100% efficient either).

With hydrogen, the only left over by product is water, it just makes absolute sense in the longer term, when it can be produced with excess renewable energy.

 

[CanOz]

Could you explain that ? Solar cells on top of vehicles perhaps, unless they are parked in underground car parks.

I'll be charging my EV from home most of the time, electricity from my panels and battery.

Charging stations have the potential to be independantly solar powered as well.

 

[Junior]

When EVs & home battery systems become the norm, there will effectively be a huge amount of battery storage spread right across the country. Stored power can be continuously transferred between the grid, plugged in vehicles, home battery & commercial/large-scale battery storage systems. Smart meters & programming means that energy could be used at appropriate times. i.e. when you plug your car in at night, energy can be drawn from the grid OR from home battery storage dependent on the state of demand on the grid. At times of low demand all surplus energy will power up batteries across the system.

A look at human history will show that the biggest and seemingly most daunting problems are always overcome and then consigned to history. I firmly believe that energy will become very, very cheap & plentiful in the coming 10 or 20 years - hopefully sooner. Technology is evolving very rapidly in this space. Of course, the state of politics in Australia means that we won't be at the forefront of all this, we will have to eventually follow the lead of others.

 

[Value Collector]

Of course the other issue is left over product, with batteries there is still a waste of resources, in the manufacture and when it has finished its usefull life. ( I know they recycle, but that isn't 100% efficient either).

With hydrogen, the only left over by product is water, it just makes absolute sense in the longer term, when it can be produced with excess renewable energy.

So you are counting the end of life batteries as waste (even though they will be recycled, and new chemistry my make batteries that last almost indefinitely)

But then you say Hydrogen's only waste is water ( thats like saying EV's only waste is heat)

End of life Hydrogen fuel cells / Tanks etc are still waste.

Not to mention the elephant in the room with hydrogen is that it is only economical when its sourced from natural gas.

Again, Your "Hydrogen" answer is only viable when linked to Natural gas.

Rumpoles 'Hybrids', are linked to oil.

EV's not limited to any only fuel source, Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Hydro, Coal, Natural gas, Nuclear, bio mass, wave power, crude oil you name it, EV's can run on it, and they use it more efficiently than other designs, its only limited by the amount of infrastructure we build, not anyone natural resource.

 

[SirRumpole]

EV's not limited to any only fuel source, Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Hydro, Coal, Natural gas, Nuclear, bio mass, wave power, crude oil you name it, EV's can run on it, and they use it more efficiently than other designs, its only limited by the amount of infrastructure we build, not anyone natural resource.

You have bought an EV I take it ?

 

[Value Collector]

You have bought an EV I take it ?

I have a Tesla Model 3 Reservation, Probably won't get it till the end of next year. The first model 3 destined for consumers only rolled off the production line on Friday, and there are about 400,000 reservations in front of me.

EV charging wastes time, EV's are less environmentally sound

Here is a video doing the Math debunking these claims, (Spoiler alert - Fueling your car at a petrel station wastes more time than charging an EV)

 

[SirRumpole]

I have a Tesla Model 3 Reservation, Probably won't get it till the end of next year. The first model 3 destined for consumers only rolled off the production line on Friday, and there are about 400,000 reservations in front of me.

I hope it works out well for you, perhaps you can keep us updated on it's pro's and cons.

How much are they ?