The future of energy generation and storage

Value Collector · 7 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
The same will happen if the world gets too reliant on electricity.

I was commenting on France banning the Internal Combustion Engine in vehicles by 2050, basically putting all its eggs in the electricity basket. So who controls the electricity and the prices charged ? If electric vehicles are the only form of transport allowed, where is the competition ? It will be like the oilogopoly we have today.

I was simply making the comment that there should be some choice for consumers, and banning one form of transport fuel (diesel, petrol) and forcing people to use only one alternative is akin to socialism and restriction of choice.

Maybe the market will go that way anyway, but it should be for consumers to decide not an authoritarian government.[/QUOTE]
Electric vehicles bring about a lot more competition in energy.

At the moment ice cars have one source of fuel, eg oil wells.

Electric cars still have the option of getting energy from oil wells eg gas, oil or diesel power plants

But electric cars can also get their fuel from many other sources, eg coal mines, uranium, wind turbines, solar cells, wave power, hydro, geothermal, biomass, wave power and probably others.

So you are actually opening up the vehicle market to a lot more competition in potential energy supply.

SirRumpole · 7 July 2017

But electric cars can also get their fuel from many other sources, eg coal mines, uranium, wind turbines, solar cells, wave power, hydro, geothermal, biomass, wave power and probably others.

So you are actually opening up the vehicle market to a lot more competition in potential energy supply.

Fine, I'm not arguing against electric vehicles, just against banning the ICE, thus giving consumers no choice.

Consumers can't control the price of electricity any more than they can control the price of oil, but competition between petrol/diesel and electricity stops either of those getting a monopoly.

Value Collector · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
Consumers can't control the price of electricity any more than they can control the price of oil, but competition between petrol/diesel and electricity stops either of those getting a monopoly.

Electricity is not supplied by one company, there are many retailers competing for customers, and generators competing to sell To the retailers, and more and more consumers are installing their own generating capacity.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

Value Collector said:
Electricity is not supplied by one company, there are many retailers competing for customers, and generators competing to sell To the retailers, and more and more consumers are installing their own generating capacity.

So you would be in favour of banning ICE vehicles ?

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

Value Collector said:
Electricity is not supplied by one company, there are many retailers competing for customers,

There is more than one bank, but they all rip off customers.

Junior · 8 July 2017

Agree with Notting. One of the planet's most inspiring and powerful entrepreneurs & thought leaders, coming to agreement with SA state government, who would have thought??

Even if the battery bank is not the solution, it's a step in the right direction & it's forward thinking. Battery technology is evolving rapidly, by the time this system reaches the end of its useful life there will be far better technologies available with which to replace it. Additionally as this a system of unprecedented size, there will be much to learn from the experience.

This is a refreshing development, when compared to the already-tired debate of coal vs. wind power - as if there's only two options and everyone has to choose a side.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

Junior said:
This is a refreshing development, when compared to the already-tired debate of coal vs. wind power - as if there's only two options and everyone has to choose a side.

A battery doesn't do away with the coal v wind debate because it still has to be charged by some form of generation, but yes it's a move forward so best of luck to them.

McLovin · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
So you would be in favour of banning ICE vehicles ?

I would. We're not near the point of being able to do that, but I hope in a decade or so it starts to become a viable option.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

McLovin said:
I would. We're not near the point of being able to do that, but I hope in a decade or so it starts to become a viable option.

So you would replace one oligopoly with another.

Batteries have their own drawbacks, limited life, reliance on a diminishing source of rare metals, and then you have the extra infrastructure required to charge all these electric vehicles overnight, most likely requiring a massive investment in nuclear power which is not cheap and consumers will end up paying through the nose for it.

McLovin · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
So you would replace one oligopoly with another.

If that's how you want to frame it, then yes. I see it as replacing a form of energy with high externalities and a diminishing supply that needs to be sourced from tin-pot dictatorships to a form of energy that is none of those things.

ETA: (the above is obviously predicated on a move away from the rock that is good for humanity)

Batteries have their own drawbacks, limited life, reliance on a diminishing source of rare metals, and then you have the extra infrastructure required to charge all these electric vehicles overnight, most likely requiring a massive investment in nuclear power which is not cheap and consumers will end up paying through the nose for it.

Given most of the cost of power is in transport not generation, what is the actual cost of constructing nuclear power plants on end users? Maybe smurf can chime in with the answer to that. The corollary of that is with everyone charging their cars at night high fixed costs can be spread over kw/h.

Value Collector · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
So you would be in favour of banning ICE vehicles ?

More than a thousand people in Sydney die of air pollution from vehicles each year it's something worth considering. If we had a nuclear plant that was releasing radiation and killing 1000 people every year it would be shut down tomorrow, but we are fine with smoke and soot for some reason.

I mean we have banned smoking in all sorts of pubic areas, but we are fine with a diesel truck blowing a plume of black smoke in our face as it leaves the traffic lights.

I am not a fan of drastic changes, but a 22 year program to phase something really damaging out seems ok to me.

There is more than one bank, but they all rip off customers.

Some people say, but their return on equity is fairly moderate in my opinion, which shows that they aren't ripping people off.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

Value Collector said:
More than a thousand people in Sydney die of air pollution from vehicles each year

Would you provide a source for that ? How is that figure calculated ?

Value Collector · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
Would you provide a source for that ? How is that figure calculated ?

"The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW 2016) has estimated that about 3000 deaths (equivalent to about 28,000 years of life lost) are attributable to urban air pollution in Australia each year (Figure ATM29). The health costs from mortality alone are estimated to be in the order of $11–24 billion per year (Begg 2007, Access Economics 2008). The health risk assessment undertaken for the review of Australia’s air quality standards (Golder Associates 2013) found that the most severe effects, in terms of overall health burden, were linked to long-term exposure to high levels of PM. Better control of nonroad spark-ignition engines and equipment to reduce emissions could avoid health costs by up to $1.7 billion (COAG 2015a)"

https://soe.environment.gov.au/theme/ambient-air-quality/topic/2016/health-impacts-air-pollution

McLovin · 8 July 2017

Value Collector said:
"The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW 2016) has estimated that about 3000 deaths (equivalent to about 28,000 years of life lost) are attributable to urban air pollution in Australia each year (Figure ATM29). The health costs from mortality alone are estimated to be in the order of $11–24 billion per year (Begg 2007, Access Economics 2008). The health risk assessment undertaken for the review of Australia’s air quality standards (Golder Associates 2013) found that the most severe effects, in terms of overall health burden, were linked to long-term exposure to high levels of PM. Better control of nonroad spark-ignition engines and equipment to reduce emissions could avoid health costs by up to $1.7 billion (COAG 2015a)"

https://soe.environment.gov.au/theme/ambient-air-quality/topic/2016/health-impacts-air-pollution

And there's the externalities...

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

McLovin said:
And there's the externalities...

And people get electrocuted too.

Anyway I'm not against electric cars, just the banning of alternatives.

If you are content to let governments dictate to you that's up to you, I prefer that consumers get a choice and decide what is best for them.

Nuclear power has its externalities too, and there is no point turning to Smurf for an examination of nuclear power, he's already said we shouldn't have a bar of it. (Post 802 in this thread).

McLovin · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
And people get electrocuted too.

Anyway I'm not against electric cars, just the banning of alternatives.

Why? The government regulates things all the time that reduce consumer choice. If replacing a dirty source of energy with a clean source reduces consumer choice I'm not going to lose any sleep.

I'm not sure that being electrocuted while using electricity can be considered an externality.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

McLovin said:
Why? The government regulates things all the time that reduce consumer choice. If replacing a dirty source of energy with a clean source reduces consumer choice I'm not going to lose any sleep.

That's a very simplistic argument, you have basically ignored the cost of infrastructure required to charge electric vehicles. Power prices are already getting out of reach in this country, sending businesses broke and consumers into more debt, imagine if we have to pay even more to charge our cars.

An all electric vehicle fleet is pie in the sky befitting the dreams of Lefty ideologues.

McLovin · 8 July 2017

SirRumpole said:
That's a very simplistic argument, you have basically ignored the cost of infrastructure required to charge electric vehicles. Power prices are already getting out of reach in this country, sending businesses broke and consumers into more debt, imagine if we have to pay even more to charge our cars.

All this seems predisposed on the notion that the change would be overnight. I imagine it will be more like the introduction of unleaded petrol. There are still many questions that need to be figured out. My own problem is that I have no off-street parking, so there is no real way for me to charge my car, at the moment.

An all electric vehicle fleet is pie in the sky befitting the dreams of Lefty ideologues.

Lol. You'll fit right in here.

SirRumpole · 8 July 2017

McLovin said:
All this seems predisposed on the notion that the change would be overnight. I imagine it will be more like the introduction of unleaded petrol. There are still many questions that need to be figured out. My own problem is that I have no off-street parking, so there is no real way for me to charge my car, at the moment.

Lol. You'll fit right in here.

Ha ha ha, here I am arguing for freedom of choice and less government interference. Some Lefty.

Value Collector · 8 July 2017

McLovin said:
My own problem is that I have no off-street parking, so there is no real way for me to charge my car, at the moment.

It's coming

Lamp post charging is already being installed across London and Berlin.

The future of energy generation and storage

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