Tisme
Apathetic at Best
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How do you store a battery powered car?
The future of energy generation and storage
- Thread starter Value Collector
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How do you store a battery powered car?
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Anyone in the solar installation business will be familiar with the term "Clowns" or "Clown Corp".
Suffice to say it's a reference to those who set standards and keep changing them so often that pretty much any system already in use won't comply and will cost serious $ to make even the smallest change as a result (since it will all have to be brought up to the new standards).
When you consider the incredibly frequent changes of technical standards, licensing requirements, council regulations and government policies it's truly amazing that the industry has got as far as it has.
If only the same degree of vigilance had been applied halogen downlights, TPS cable insulation, flexi hoses and building materials generally then Australian consumers would be in a much safer situation today.
All that has a lot in common with the overall energy situation in Australia. We had a system that worked, was the third cheapest in the OECD and was technically robust.
25 years later and SA has the highest electricity prices in the world with other states having also greatly increased. Technical integrity has fallen in a heap and continues to decline at an alarming pace. Australia is an outright joke so far as any notion of being internationally competitive with energy is concerned.
Looking at the situation now, well residential prices in Adelaide are about double those of Hobart per kilowatt hour consumed. Adelaide is also about 60% more expensive than either Perth or Darwin.
Now, fundamentally Darwin ought to have the highest cost. I've nothing against PAWA but ultimately it's a very small power system in terms of generating capacity, is a long way from anywhere and is based on a relatively expensive resource (gas). And yet they've beaten the absolute **** out of the "efficient" private suppliers in SA. No surprises there.
WA ought to be cheaper than the NT but suffice to say that Synergy are slowly but surely being dragged down the "competitive market" path with government owned power stations being closed in order to ensure the profits of their privately owned competitors. So it's no surprise to see the warnings of big power prices on the way.
As for Tassie, well I think (hope) we've finally worn down those in Canberra and in the ACCC who would gladly have us on the same path the other states have already gone down. With the wheels falling off just about everywhere else their attention has been diverted for now at least. That plus it's getting rather hard to deny that their "brilliant" ideas aren't exactly going too well in other states.
Suffice to say it's a reference to those who set standards and keep changing them so often that pretty much any system already in use won't comply and will cost serious $ to make even the smallest change as a result (since it will all have to be brought up to the new standards).
When you consider the incredibly frequent changes of technical standards, licensing requirements, council regulations and government policies it's truly amazing that the industry has got as far as it has.
If only the same degree of vigilance had been applied halogen downlights, TPS cable insulation, flexi hoses and building materials generally then Australian consumers would be in a much safer situation today.
All that has a lot in common with the overall energy situation in Australia. We had a system that worked, was the third cheapest in the OECD and was technically robust.
25 years later and SA has the highest electricity prices in the world with other states having also greatly increased. Technical integrity has fallen in a heap and continues to decline at an alarming pace. Australia is an outright joke so far as any notion of being internationally competitive with energy is concerned.
Looking at the situation now, well residential prices in Adelaide are about double those of Hobart per kilowatt hour consumed. Adelaide is also about 60% more expensive than either Perth or Darwin.
Now, fundamentally Darwin ought to have the highest cost. I've nothing against PAWA but ultimately it's a very small power system in terms of generating capacity, is a long way from anywhere and is based on a relatively expensive resource (gas). And yet they've beaten the absolute **** out of the "efficient" private suppliers in SA. No surprises there.
WA ought to be cheaper than the NT but suffice to say that Synergy are slowly but surely being dragged down the "competitive market" path with government owned power stations being closed in order to ensure the profits of their privately owned competitors. So it's no surprise to see the warnings of big power prices on the way.
As for Tassie, well I think (hope) we've finally worn down those in Canberra and in the ACCC who would gladly have us on the same path the other states have already gone down. With the wheels falling off just about everywhere else their attention has been diverted for now at least. That plus it's getting rather hard to deny that their "brilliant" ideas aren't exactly going too well in other states.
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WA ought to be cheaper than the NT but suffice to say that Synergy are slowly but surely being dragged down the "competitive market" path with government owned power stations being closed in order to ensure the profits of their privately owned competitors. So it's no surprise to see the warnings of big power prices on the way.
In W.A, the Libs were going to sell Western Power to pay down debt, Labor said it would drive up prices.
Labor have won the election and are now driving up prices, to encourage competition, to drive down prices?
Labor in W.A had the perfect opportunity, to re establish the State owned and operated Power System, there is an abundance of State owned generating capacity.
But alas, Labor doesn't seem to be interested in the option either.
They instead, are going to strip any value out of Western Power, before they sell it.
Obviously both sides of politics, are singing from the same song sheet, it's just the chorus that changes.
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Unless the plan has changed in the past couple of months (?) then they're going to close:
Muja AB - yep closing the place not long after the $$$ was spent to bring it back into operation.
Mungarra - units 1, 2, 3 being closed
Kalgoorlie - units 2 & 3
Kwinana - the last remnant of KPS, the 21 MW gas turbine, being closed.
All done in order to meet a government directive to reduce state owned generating capacity so as to ensure revenue to the private operators.
I'm not opposed to private ownership of electricity infrastructure per se. The problem however is the structure and the insistence of politicians and others that it be spread across multiple owners who "compete" for business. Trouble is, as anyone with an understanding of the related economics are all too aware that approach sends costs sky high to start with in the hope of then bringing them back down a bit.
Looking at SA as an example, under private ownership we've seen Pelican Point, Labroke Grove, Lonsdale, Angaston and Quarantine power stations all built and now AGL is about to replace 2 units at Torrens Island A.
The trouble is that scale is critical to keeping costs down and every single one of those is way below optimum scale with only Pelican Point coming anywhere close. So that approach has sent costs sky high to start with and even if the private owners somehow managed to reduce non-fuel variable costs to literally zero they'd still be more expensive than if optimum scale plant were built in the first place.
The ACCC and others would have a fit at the suggestion but the best possible outcome at this point would be for the management of AGL, Origin, Energy Australia and others to sit down and work out a plan. Decide who's doing what and then get on and build things at an efficient scale and operate them efficiently.
Competition in the supply of an undifferentiated product like electricity is not a rational objective in itself. Lower prices and greater efficiency are rational objectives as are various environmental and other matters but whose name is in the bill is of little relevance to consumers. Now, competition does in theory drive efficiency but if the cost of implementation exceeds the absolute limit of the benefits, and it is clear that in practice prices are going up not down under this approach, then a rational person would see that it has failed and change course.
The crux of the problem is that the economic theorists and their political supporters seem incapable of accepting that their policies, whilst seemingly reasonable in theory, have failed in practice.
The figures vary a bit between states but as an overall ballpark figure we'd need a 40% cut in residential prices and a 10% improvement in thermal efficiency (and thus emissions) per unit of production just to break even with the efficiency of the former state run monopoly utilities. That's a pretty dismal result by any measure.
As I said though I'm not opposed to private ownership per se. For somewhere like SA or WA it's a given though that there will only be a single operator calling the shots if efficient scale is to be achieved.
So the choice is a government owned monopoly, a privately owned monopoly, or a fragmented industry that is nowhere close to achieving optimum scale and which costs a fortune.
Of that lot a government owned monopoly is likely the lesser evil unless someone can come up with a way to ensure that a private monopoly doesn't price gouge (actually, the Americans did have a reasonably effective way of doing that in the past so it's not out of the question).
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Like I said, both the Libs and Labor, sing from the same song sheet.
First the breaking up of generation, supply and distribution, in the name of efficiency.
When in actual fact, from my memory, generation had to carry all the debt associated to the spinning off, of Alinta.
The rest is history, it is just really sad, when the Government could still take over the supply and distribution.
But don't want to.
Politics has obviously, become a career, rather than a calling.
It really is a sad situation, it reminds me of when I discussed with a union lawyer, the unfairness of a particular ruling which benefited upper managers.
His response,"who said it has to be fair".
Well I lost my drive, for the better 'good' when I heard that.
Like I've said before, Governments work on a long time scale, when we're gone there is a new norm.
Obviously supplying essential services, on a not for profit basis, doesn't fit in.LOL
First the breaking up of generation, supply and distribution, in the name of efficiency.
When in actual fact, from my memory, generation had to carry all the debt associated to the spinning off, of Alinta.
The rest is history, it is just really sad, when the Government could still take over the supply and distribution.
But don't want to.
Politics has obviously, become a career, rather than a calling.
It really is a sad situation, it reminds me of when I discussed with a union lawyer, the unfairness of a particular ruling which benefited upper managers.
His response,"who said it has to be fair".
Well I lost my drive, for the better 'good' when I heard that.
Like I've said before, Governments work on a long time scale, when we're gone there is a new norm.
Obviously supplying essential services, on a not for profit basis, doesn't fit in.LOL
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Volvo to ditch all ICE vehicles, moving to all electric or hybrids.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...c,-ditches-cars-powered-solely-by-gas/8683850
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...c,-ditches-cars-powered-solely-by-gas/8683850
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With the Chinese owning them, it probably makes a lot of sense, it will be a niche market with a brand name.
Volvo would make up a minor part, of Geely's operations. and probably contributes minimally to their bottom line.
It is a very clever move on their part, the product will get better acceptance with a brand name, while it is developed. IMO
"One Hundred Days or it's free"
Here we go
The world's largest lithium ion battery will be installed in South Australia under an agreement between Tesla, Neoen and the State Government, Premier Jay Weatherill has announced.
The energy storage systems from Tesla will be paired with French renewable company Neoen's Hornsdale Wind Farm and installed before summer.
According to the Government, Tesla boss Elon Musk has confirmed his commitment to deliver the battery within 100 days or it is free.
The 100 days starts once the grid interconnection agreement has been signed.
The Government has said the 100-megawatt (129 megawatt hour) battery places SA at the forefront of global energy storage technology.
Where's the down side??
Tesla has a bulging order book for the Model3; Any dormant car plant anyone can think of?
The GigaFactory is a proto type designed for duplication....
Here we go
The world's largest lithium ion battery will be installed in South Australia under an agreement between Tesla, Neoen and the State Government, Premier Jay Weatherill has announced.
The energy storage systems from Tesla will be paired with French renewable company Neoen's Hornsdale Wind Farm and installed before summer.
According to the Government, Tesla boss Elon Musk has confirmed his commitment to deliver the battery within 100 days or it is free.
The 100 days starts once the grid interconnection agreement has been signed.
The Government has said the 100-megawatt (129 megawatt hour) battery places SA at the forefront of global energy storage technology.
Where's the down side??
Tesla has a bulging order book for the Model3; Any dormant car plant anyone can think of?
The GigaFactory is a proto type designed for duplication....
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France will 'ban all petrol and diesel
vehicles by 2040'
vehicles by 2040'
France plans to ban all petrol and diesel vehicles by 2040, the country's new environment minister has announced.
Nicolas Hulot made the announcement as he unveiled a series of measures as part of newly elected President Emmanuel Macron's plan to make the country carbon neutral by 2050.
Mr Hulot said he recognised the target would put pressure on France's car manufacturers, but he said they currently had projects which "can fulfil that promise".
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Typical socialist government, dictating to the marketplace.
Cutting off your options and pinning your hopes onto one form of transport is silly policy imho.
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It's "failure" by design.
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North West Africa is running out of gas and oil; Australia and the Middle East belong to Uncle Sam... So they have to play another game else it'll be Earth Hour every hour in a few decades
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The batteries only last 15 years.
Hopefully they will do other things as well in the meantime like pumped storage.
Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
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It's going that way anyway.
22 years from now, I would imagine the vast majority of the vehicle fleet will have already moved away from ICE power trains.
Electric vehicles make a lot of sense in France, they already export large amounts of electricity, due to over capacity
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The world got too reliant on oil and the consumers get gouged at the whim of the oil companies.
The same will happen if the world gets too reliant on electricity.
That's why I reckon hybrids are the best bet. The best of both worlds.
CanOz
Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!
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Sir, with all due respect you do realise that electricity is just a conversion of one form of energy to another?? How can we become too reliant on electricity? That is a bizarre statement on its own, perhaps you can add some clarification....is there another power source you're not telling us about? Back to steam perhaps?
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The same will happen if the world gets too reliant on electricity.[/QUOTE]
I was commenting on France banning the Internal Combustion Engine in vehicles by 2050, basically putting all its eggs in the electricity basket. So who controls the electricity and the prices charged ? If electric vehicles are the only form of transport allowed, where is the competition ? It will be like the oilogopoly we have today.
I was simply making the comment that there should be some choice for consumers, and banning one form of transport fuel (diesel, petrol) and forcing people to use only one alternative is akin to socialism and restriction of choice.
Maybe the market will go that way anyway, but it should be for consumers to decide not an authoritarian government.
I was commenting on France banning the Internal Combustion Engine in vehicles by 2050, basically putting all its eggs in the electricity basket. So who controls the electricity and the prices charged ? If electric vehicles are the only form of transport allowed, where is the competition ? It will be like the oilogopoly we have today.
I was simply making the comment that there should be some choice for consumers, and banning one form of transport fuel (diesel, petrol) and forcing people to use only one alternative is akin to socialism and restriction of choice.
Maybe the market will go that way anyway, but it should be for consumers to decide not an authoritarian government.
CanOz
Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!
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Sir, the French own almost all the power producers, over 70% is nuclear. It is a socialist government as you say, so it should be the antithisis of what Australia is today and therefore an ideal model if you don't prefer to see the sector privatised.
I'm confused, if you don't like privatised power, what do you want if its not the French model??
I'm confused, if you don't like privatised power, what do you want if its not the French model??
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No, I don't like privatised power, but we don't rely on electricity for transport at the moment and banning a particular form of transport reduces competition and freedom of choice . Would you like to see governments ban rooftop solar so we all had to rely on power generated by others ? If that happened there would probably be another revolution.
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What SA Gov did today with Musk is totally awesome, especially in a country so rich in resources that are profitable but destroying mans ability to inhabit the world.
It's the best thing I have seen in Ausi Admin/politics ever.
Musk is the man who's vision, guts and cunning to maneuver around all the crap that big oil interest throws at his Telsa's etc is saving the world.
Fantastic what Volvo announced about electric cars the other day too. All because of Musk,
TOTAL LEGEND Guts all around.
Great day for Australia
It's the best thing I have seen in Ausi Admin/politics ever.
Musk is the man who's vision, guts and cunning to maneuver around all the crap that big oil interest throws at his Telsa's etc is saving the world.
Fantastic what Volvo announced about electric cars the other day too. All because of Musk,
TOTAL LEGEND Guts all around.
Great day for Australia
