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The future of energy generation and storage

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Value Collector said:
with a Tesla, if you have to drive more than the 350km or 400km range, you just pull into a super charger for 20mins and then keep going, and the next generation of super chargers is going to be even less time.

You can actually drive Brisbane to Melbourne in a Tesla using the super charger network. But for most people beginning every day with a full battery they charged at home means they have more than enough power.


Super Charging, Brisbane to Melbourne
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So Tesla has got your long trips covered with the super charger network.

But as I said, electricity is the perfect fuel because its available everywhere, there is no reason why every light post and power pole can't be an electric vehicle charge point.

This Company is converting ordinary light posts to electric vehicle charge points, and bills customers monthly to their account.

As I said, will be available every where, not need for tanker trucks of petrel or hydrogen
 
SirRumpole said:
Sure and once everyone gets hooked on electric cars, watch the power prices sky-rocket.
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Power prices are regulated, which means power companies can not make excessive profits based on the capital invested, so in general higher utilisation rates on the installed infrastructure lowers prices. (over all utilisation, not just high peak loads, high peak loads tend to increase costs)

However as I suggested before, some sort of tax on electric vehicles will be needed eventually to cover the the building and maintenance of roads.
 
Value Collector said:
People will still need the grid to take their excess supply during the day, and meet their demand at night.

The grid connection is much cheaper and more versatile than going off grid with batteries, even if the price of batteries comes down by a lot, a home battery pack and solar would struggle to supply enough energy during winter (especially when charging a car) and not have enough capacity to store all the power generated if you were away for a few days
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I didn't say consumers will go off grid, just that their consumption will reduce, due to energy efficiency and domestic solar/battery installations.
This will require Governments and or energy retailers, to increase service charges more and more, as usage reduces.
 
sptrawler said:
This will require Governments and or energy retailers, to increase service charges more and more, as usage reduces.
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As I pointed out, demand for electrical energy is going to increase, not reduce.

electric vehicles are going to lead to a much higher utilisation rate of the infrastructure, which means costs per kw/h will reduce all things being equal.

I agree service charges will increase, becasue they don't represent true cost at the moment, but over all cost won't change that much (outside of inflation or interference by the government)

If you currently have solar and have been under a plan which wasn't charging you for your use of the grid properly, your costs will rise.
 
Value Collector said:
As I pointed out, demand for electrical energy is going to increase, not reduce.
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For sure, but say the tesla trucks for example they will be charging at large hubs in industrial areas. If driverless car networks take off they will all be getting charged at a hub somewhere. Who knows in the future you may call uber to come and charge your house??
 
fiftyeight said:
For sure, but say the tesla trucks for example they will be charging at large hubs in industrial areas. If driverless car networks take off they will all be getting charged at a hub somewhere. Who knows in the future you may call uber to come and charge your house??
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And where will these "hubs" be getting their power from? from scattered renewable energy projects, including under utilised roof top solar in the suburbs, both the hubs, and the solar cells need to be connected to the grid, its the most efficient way to transport and distribute the energy.
 
Value Collector said:
And where will these "hubs" be getting their power from?
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TBH not sure where grid owners make their $$$ so there is still probably money to be made.

For residential, as long as connecting to the grid is cheaper than what average person could sell back to the grid per year everyone will stay connected. If that changes there may be a lot of unused infrastructure in the future
 
fiftyeight said:
TBH not sure where grid owners make their $$$ so there is still probably money to be made.

For residential, as long as connecting to the grid is cheaper than what average person could sell back to the grid per year everyone will stay connected. If that changes there may be a lot of unused infrastructure in the future
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The "distribution lines", eg the local wires and poles going out to individual homes and businesses, earn a fee for each connection.

The "transmission lines", eg the big power lines that transport over long distances, rent capacity and generally get paid whether it's used or not.

It's a different business to the generation business, the fees you can charge are decided by the regulator, and are based on the capital value of the assets. The regulator will set a price based on expected utilisation rates, that is supposed to provide the owner with enough revenue to maintain the assets, and provide a profit margin a set percentage above the rate earned on government bonds.
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But from the consumers perspective, the grid is just like a big battery, it's a place to sell/ store the excess electricity during daylight hours, and to rebuy the power you need at night.

The grid offers solar users a much needed service, at a low price compared to alternatives, and if they own a decent sized system, they can probably pay for grid access through solar credits, rather than cash.
 
Value Collector said:
After that a move away from Natural gas for household heating, hot water and cooking might follow, moving more household energy demand to electricity.

Electricity is going to take over most forms of energy use eventually, and production will be more and more spread out, the grid is here to stay.
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Agreed with the point you're making. Looking at just natural gas, a point not well known outside the energy industry is that in Victoria during winter gas provides roughly twice as much energy to consumers as electricity does. Gas is in first place, electricity runs a distant second.

Even if the most efficient available technologies were used to replace gas with electricity, it's still at least a 50% increase in electricity load during Winter. And since it's during Winter, there's zero chance that consumers are going to be generating that + their present consumption themselves with solar so the grid is here to stay yes.

Then add in electric transport, which is year round, plus growing population and it's very plausible that we'll see the total electrical load in Victoria literally double over however long the transition takes.

On the other hand, somewhere like Tasmania it wouldn't make anywhere near as much difference. Far higher per capita electricity use at present, limited use of gas and relatively short transport distances so it's not a drastic change. :2twocents
 
SirRumpole said:
They may be now, but if some IPA influenced Right wing looney removes that restriction, the prices will rise dramatically.
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With household prices from the privately owned, "competitive" and "efficient" electricity system in South Australia now almost literally double those charged by the state owned "monopoly" in Tasmania I think it's pretty clear who was wrong and who was right in the great privatisation debate.

It's to the point that running an off-peak water heater in Adelaide is now in fact more expensive than paying full peak rate in Hobart. That's just ridiculous and whilst the cost advantage of hydro-electric generation in Tas does help it's by no means the full story here. Back in the ETSA days SA's power industry was clearly more economically efficient than it is today.

The question now is how on earth do we fix the mess?

And what do we do about the broader economic and social impacts of the recent price hikes which have turned prices in SA in particular from "way too high" to "outright insane"?:2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
The question now is how on earth do we fix the mess?

And what do we do about the broader economic and social impacts of the recent price hikes which have turned prices in SA in particular from "way too high" to "outright insane"?
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Maybe the Federal government should cap power prices before they wreck consumers, businesses and the whole economy.

That's the only way out that I can see in the short term anyway.

Longer term is government investment in new generation and storage (Snowy Hydro 2.0 looks good). The Australian market is too small to depend on private investment, although they provide an important backup in smaller capital generation like wind and solar.

The Finkel report is a good start imo, what do you think ?
 
Smurf1976 said:
With household prices from the privately owned, "competitive" and "efficient" electricity system in South Australia now almost literally double those charged by the state owned "monopoly" in Tasmania I think it's pretty clear who was wrong and who was right in the great privatisation debate.

It's to the point that running an off-peak water heater in Adelaide is now in fact more expensive than paying full peak rate in Hobart. That's just ridiculous and whilst the cost advantage of hydro-electric generation in Tas does help it's by no means the full story here. Back in the ETSA days SA's power industry was clearly more economically efficient than it is today.

The question now is how on earth do we fix the mess?

And what do we do about the broader economic and social impacts of the recent price hikes which have turned prices in SA in particular from "way too high" to "outright insane"?:2twocents
Click to expand...

In your opinion what is the problem in SA? is the Generation side or the distribution side of the equation?

From my understanding SA has been let down on the generation side, which is somewhat political, e.g. No company is going to make big investments into long payback cycle fossil fuel generation (e.g. coal) because they don't know how the government will tax them in 5 years time and funding is difficult because of environmental groups pressuring the banks to deny credit.

So SA went instead with more expensive renewables, which proved unreliable and cause spikes in spot electricity prices, which off course need to be factored in to the retail price.
 
Value Collector said:
In your opinion what is the problem in SA? is the Generation side or the distribution side of the equation?

From my understanding SA has been let down on the generation side, which is somewhat political, e.g. No company is going to make big investments into long payback cycle fossil fuel generation (e.g. coal) because they don't know how the government will tax them in 5 years time and funding is difficult because of environmental groups pressuring the banks to deny credit.

So SA went instead with more expensive renewables, which proved unreliable and cause spikes in spot electricity prices, which off course need to be factored in to the retail price.
Click to expand...
 
Australia, land of the great red tape...

Is the energy industry in bed with Standards Australia? Sounds like it.

So, it's ok to park your Tesla in your garage and charge it overnight, but not a battery for your home?

Sounds like the muppet brigade is at the wheel again...


The new standard that could kill the home battery storage market

​
The battery storage industry is warning that the market for lithium-ion battery installations could be killed even before it has taken off if proposed new Australian standards do not fall in line with international installation guidelines.

As we reported last month, the draft from Standards Australia will effectively ban lithium-ion battery storage inside homes and garages after declaring it to be a category 1 fire risk. It will mean any installations will need to be built in a concrete bunker, making it impossible for many homes and costly for others.

The proposals have been described as a massive case of over-reach, even by groups whose members form part of the standards advisory committee. Some have suggested that the standards process – which normally takes several years – has been rushed.

Most of all, they point out that the new standards do not reflect international practice, nor are they based on any known threat. Home battery storage systems would be banned, while lithium-ion batteries for laptops, mobile phones and other devices, electric vehicles, and gas bottles are not.

Glen Morris, from the Australian Storage Council, says even the prospect of these new rules could see a dent in the market, just as it begins to take off with the release of the new Tesla Powerwalls, and new models and products from the likes of LG Chem, Sonnenbatterie, BYD and many others.

The European standard, known as IEC 62619:2017, sets out in detail the operating requirements of battery storage devices, but does not go to the extreme of banning them outright from homes and buildings.

The US standard, which is similar to IEC 62619, cannot be adopted by Standards Australia because there is no commercial arrangement between the two organisations.

 
Thanks DB. Good story. Absolutely ridiculous draft standard proposal. Just cannot understand how it has gotten this far.
 

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