The future of energy generation and storage

[Value Collector]

So Western Australia has an inefficient publicly owned system. Perhaps privatisation would be key to reducing costs?

Selling up to Warren Buffet appears to be the key to longterm stability and lower cost.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes I understand your helicopter point, but if people don't like your helicopter charges they can drive or take a train, it's not an essential service.

 

[SirRumpole]

Selling up to Warren Buffet appears to be the key to longterm stability and lower cost.

Buffet is going to die sometime and whoever takes over from him may not take such a benevolent attitude.

Governments can always be voted out.

 

[Tisme]

Selling up to Warren Buffet appears to be the key to longterm stability and lower cost.

So it seems.

Of course the more cynical amongst would presume the high cost of power in WA and QLD could be old fashioned taxation by stealth

and similarly employment participation rates by stealth, using the public sector purse as a labour soak of people who would otherwise find themselves on the street as surplus to private enterprise requirements.

 

[sptrawler]

So Western Australia has an inefficient publicly owned system. Perhaps privatisation would be key to reducing costs?

Actually Rod Simms, chairman of the ACCC, thought so.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/accc-backs-western-power-sale-030152489.html

I personally would have preferred if all electricity supplies were Government owned, as an essential service, but we are way too far down the track for that to happen.
Therefore as was said on here years ago, the service cost will have to be the main price driver, as more and more customers use less and less power.

 

[Tisme]

Actually Rod Simms, chairman of the ACCC, thought so.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/accc-backs-western-power-sale-030152489.html

I personally would have preferred if all electricity supplies were Government owned, as an essential service, but we are way too far down the track for that to happen.
Therefore as was said on here years ago, the service cost will have to be the main price driver, as more and more customers use less and less power.

West Australians are/were very protective of some things... would ownership of power production, poles and wires be one of those? It certainly helped Labor win last election in QLD by insisting they wouldn't sell or lease that asset base.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes I understand your helicopter point, but if people don't like your helicopter charges they can drive or take a train, it's not an essential service.

People can go off grid, with solar cells, Batteries and back up generators if they don't want to pay for grid access.

As I pointed out though going off grid is much more expensive than the grid access costs, so it kind of makes their argument about the grid costs bunk.

Buffet is going to die sometime and whoever takes over from him may not take such a benevolent attitude.

Governments can always be voted out

he isn't benevolent, he is in it for the money.

 

[sptrawler]

West Australians are/were very protective of some things... would ownership of power production, poles and wires be one of those? It certainly helped Labor win last election in QLD by insisting they wouldn't sell or lease that asset base.

It definitely helped Labor win here in W.A, the problem will be where do Labor get their money from?
The measures they have mention up to now, are really tinkering at the edges, they are looking at a bank tax same as S.A.
The problem with that is, it will end up being worn by the public, who are already stretched to the limit.
There is very limited ways of generating new revenue, other than to take more off the taxpayers, a general tax on mineral extraction would appear to be one of the only options.IMO
Small business is dependent on consumer spending, taking more and more off the consumer, will end up in recession.

 

[SirRumpole]

Small business is dependent on consumer spending, taking more and more off the consumer, will end up in recession.

+1.

 

[Value Collector]

as more and more customers use less and less power.

Thats Myth, Consumers are going to be using more power in the years to come and relying on the grid more.

All that will change is that they will generate some of this themselves and need to trade this power with each other throughout the day, which requires the grid.

The rest of the generation is going to be more diverse and more spread out, coming more from renewables, which again requires the grid to transport and trade.

Extra Electricity demand is going to come from steady introduction of electric vehicles, which can take the average homes weekly electricity usage to charge from 0% to 100%.

After that a move away from Natural gas for household heating, hot water and cooking might follow, moving more household energy demand to electricity.


Electricity is going to take over most forms of energy use eventually, and production will be more and more spread out, the grid is here to stay.

 

[Value Collector]

Thats Myth, Consumers are going to be using more power in the years to come and relying on the grid more.
.

Just to explain what I meant a bit better, and how much extra electrical demand will come about because of a gradual shift from Diesel/petrel to electrical power.

Take a look at Tesla's latest move in the vehicle game, the Tesla Semi Trailer truck.

Adding 1 Electric semi trailer to the national vehicle fleet, would be the same as connecting 700 new homes to the grid (without solar)

 

[SirRumpole]

Just to explain what I meant a bit better, and how much extra electrical demand will come about because of a gradual shift from Diesel/petrel to electrical power.

None if diesel-electric hybrids catch on, but you're right Teslas etc are likely to cause a big increase in demand for power and the costs to the grid of these is being swept under the carpet.

 

[Value Collector]

None if diesel-electric hybrids catch on, .

Full electric vehicles are going to kill Hybrids over time, especially in transport which access to the grid is widely available e.g. almost everywhere.

but you're right Teslas etc are likely to cause a big increase in demand for power and the costs to the grid of these is being swept under the carpet

Owners of electric vehicles will pay for their usage just like anyone else, Also given that home charging could largely be done at off-peak times, it would be good for the industry.

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But also, a system where the costs are distributed out to the users fairly, the costs don't matter so much, because the users are covering the costs.

It's only when the system is subsidising some people, while over charging others and is being used for other political purposes etc, while not encouraging new investment that there are problems.

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Look at Buffets company, happy to build a grid that suits its market, and keep adding new investments, and lowering costs so long as he can generate a reasonable return on the capital outlaid.

Buffet doesn't care if the utilisation rates of his grids go up, its good for him, it means he can make further investments.

 

[sptrawler]

Electricity is going to take over most forms of energy use eventually, and production will be more and more spread out, the grid is here to stay.

The grid is here to stay because of industrial loads.
Domestic demand IMO will continue to drop as appliances become more and more efficient and the domestic use of solar/battery increases.
As for electric vehicles, I still think the product we see currently, is nothing like where it will end up.
It won't be a plug in vehicle that takes the massive current injection, that those today use.
My guess is still hydrogen as the future fuel staple, either liquid or fuel cell.

 

[Value Collector]

The grid is here to stay because of industrial loads.
.

Yes.

Domestic demand IMO will continue to drop as appliances become more and more efficient and the domestic use of solar/battery increases.

People will still need the grid to take their excess supply during the day, and meet their demand at night.

The grid connection is much cheaper and more versatile than going off grid with batteries, even if the price of batteries comes down by a lot, a home battery pack and solar would struggle to supply enough energy during winter (especially when charging a car) and not have enough capacity to store all the power generated if you were away for a few days.

As for electric vehicles, I still think the product we see currently, is nothing like where it will end up.
It won't be a plug in vehicle that takes the massive current injection, that those today use.
My guess is still hydrogen as the future fuel staple, either liquid or fuel cell

Hydrogen fuel cells can't compete with full electric vehicles.

electricity is the perfect fuel, it can be generated through so many means, and is available every where.

 

[SirRumpole]

Full electric vehicles are going to kill Hybrids over time, especially in transport which access to the grid is widely available e.g. almost everywhere.

It's going to be a long time. Why take the risk of being caught short on volts with an overnight charge time when you can just fill up a hybrid at any garage ?

Range fear is one reason why fully electric cars are going to meet consumer resistance for a long time.

 

[Tisme]

It's going to be a long time. Why take the risk of being caught short on volts with an overnight charge time when you can just fill up a hybrid at any garage ?

Range fear is one reason why fully electric cars are going to meet consumer resistance for a long time.

I'm not so sure of that, the Tesla is an urban trophy car around Brisbane so resistance hasn't really factored yet.

 

[Value Collector]

It's going to be a long time. Why take the risk of being caught short on volts with an overnight charge time when you can just fill up a hybrid at any garage ?

Range fear is one reason why fully electric cars are going to meet consumer resistance for a long time.

with a Tesla, if you have to drive more than the 350km or 400km range, you just pull into a super charger for 20mins and then keep going, and the next generation of super chargers is going to be even less time.

You can actually drive Brisbane to Melbourne in a Tesla using the super charger network. But for most people beginning every day with a full battery they charged at home means they have more than enough power.


Super Charging, Brisbane to Melbourne

 

[SirRumpole]

I'm not so sure of that, the Tesla is an urban trophy car around Brisbane so resistance hasn't really factored yet.

Yeah, well one day people may wise up and start thinking "now we are reliant on electric cars how much are they going to put power prices up". Think of how much the governments now rip off us with fuel taxes.

 

[Tisme]

See there is voter discontent at the Turnbull Govt's criticising the SA energy situation Another example of Crow Eaters disliking interference in domestic matters by interloping Cornstalks and Gumsuckers

Labor 56% , LNP 44%