The future of energy generation and storage

[SirRumpole]

I have wondered whether using a battery that is charged during off peak times, even without solar panels might be a way to save money,

I think it would untill everyone starts doing it in which case off peak would turn into on peak.

 

[SirRumpole]

I watched a lecture by a guy who specialises in battery chemistry a few weeks ago, and he was basically saying the main reasons lithium ion batteries degrade over time is that plaque builds up on the anode, and he said this problem is being worked on by some of the worlds best, and he said the problem is likely going to be solved in the near future with additives that prevent such plaque build ups, and batteries will effectively be able to operate un limited cycles with near zero degradation.

I'm sure battery technology will keep on advancing.

They still need to mine , transport and process the metals all of which consume resources and generate waste so this has to be taken into account.

 

[Value Collector]

I think it would untill everyone starts doing it in which case off peak would turn into on peak.

Or there is just no more peak and off peak, just one steady lower price.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm sure battery technology will keep on advancing.

They still need to mine , transport and process the metals all of which consume resources and generate waste so this has to be taken into account.

Resources are needed for everything, that wouldn't be a problem.

end of life batteries can be recycled, in fact Tesla is planning on recycling their batteries so in the future as more and more of their batteries reach end of life, their factory will be producing new batteries with recycled content in an almost closed loop.

there is also actually a second hand market for the batteries from Tesla cars that have been written off in accidents, but people want to repurpose the cells etc.

 

[sptrawler]

My Dad is currently selling excess solar power back to the grid for 12 cents, and buying power back at 28cents. who ever quoted you those numbers needs to get a better plan.

Basically its simple retailing, if you sell a tin of baked beans to woolies, you will probably get 60cents, if you want to buy a tin of baked beans you will pay $1.20.

When you are effectively using the grid as your battery, you are being provided a service, the retailer making money on your sales and purchases is how they make money providing this infrastructure service to you.

you can get around this by using a battery on your property, but that also has a cost.



The benefit of the battery is that the guy will solar panels can keep his power made during the day when he wasn't home rather than sell it for 12 cents, and use it later after dark rather than pay 28cents.

I have wondered whether using a battery that is charged during off peak times, even without solar panels might be a way to save money,

I'm sure I've read, if you install batteries, you get no feed in payment, worth checking.

 

[Value Collector]

I'm sure I've read, if you install batteries, you get no feed in payment, worth checking.

Batteries wouldn't stop you selling your excess power, but it probably stops you getting that government subsidy/rebate.

But either way, the idea of batteries is to keep your power rather than feed it into the grid.

 

[bellenuit]

If you have batteries and you are on the grid, are you allowed draw on battery power when there is a grid power failure. I know you cannot use solar panel power when you have no batteries and there is a grid failure for safety reasons, but with battery backup I hope they have come up with some sort of switching mechanism to isolate from the grid so that you can continue to use your battery power.

 

[Smurf1976]

Well the great Hazelwood shutdown is well underway. 3 units gone, 5 still running but not for much longer.

Unit 8 ceased generation at 1:55 am this morning.

Unit 6 stopped at 11:10 am today.

Unit 4 stopped at 16:15 today.

Units 1, 2, 3, 5 & 7 are still operating, producing 820 MW between them.

Prices generally $100 to $240 during business hours today. For reference, long term average price for 2015-16 whole of financial year was $46.15 and for 2014-15 it was $30.35 (these prices are for Vic). This financial year to date the average is $52.55

So far as who's generating the power not coming from Hazelwood is concerned, that has varied throughout the day but the most notable point is that Newport power station (gas, Melbourne metro area) is producing 400 MW (capacity 500 MW) whereas it has been largely idle in recent times.

For other major base load plant in Vic:

Loy Yang A now has 3 (of 4) units running with unit 3 returned to service last night.

Yallourn down to 2 (of 4) units with unit 2 shut down fairly quickly about 12:45 pm today. Not sure of the reason.

Loy Yang B still has 1 (of 2) units running.

Gas price in Vic is sitting on $11.50 at the moment which is higher than it has been recently.

Hypothetically, if there was a heatwave, then Vic and SA would both be having blackouts every day for the next week (haven't looked at the detail beyond that).

 

[Smurf1976]

If you have batteries and you are on the grid, are you allowed draw on battery power when there is a grid power failure.

Regulations may differ between states but in Tasmania you most certainly can have battery (or some other means eg generator) backup to your household power supply if you want to.

It just needs to meet all technical requirements and that's it really. There's a 100% certainty that an Electrical Inspector will turn up to check the installation but the onus there is on the electrician who installed it to make sure it's right. The inspector may choose to run some actual tests to confirm compliance if they deem that necessary or may simply visually inspect and approve it based on the type of equipment used.

Main thing the inspector will be checking is to make sure there's zero possibility that your system feeds power into a "dead" network beyond your house and that it is electrically safe. Beyond that they're just checking the usual stuff - not going to burn the house down etc.

Requirements may differ in other states.

 

[sptrawler]

Let the fun begin.
Hazelwood shutting down, will make for interesting times, a lot of finger pointing will be the call of the day.

 

[Smurf1976]

Someone's even written a song about the place....

 

[sptrawler]

I just find the whole thing tragic, sad and soul destroying.
How the hell we can allow it to get to this state, and expect to drive a strong vibrant economy is beyond the pale.
What Abbott suggested made sense, pay a capacity payment to keep Hazelwood available, until an alternative is up and running.
All we are doing is selling the farm, to pay for our contribution to a cleaner planet, I hope that gives everyone a warm feeling in their stomachs when it all plays out.
We have a small market place, one of the most expensive wages, one of the highest taxing, one of the highest welfare costs and now one of the highest power costs. I hope someone can come up with a silver bullet.lol

By the way smurph, it was a great song and video clip, brought back memories pre D.C.S, at Kwinana

 

[Smurf1976]

I just find the whole thing tragic, sad and soul destroying.

On one hand I most certainly do "get it" about the need for renewable energy. No argument there as long as it's done sensibly.

On the other hand Hazelwood is highly symbolic of what could be referred to as the engineers' vision of a productive Australia. A country that did something other than flipping houses. Seeing it come to an end, with no real alternative in place, is not a good thing at all both practically and symbolically.

In that sense I'll add that Energy Brix is about to be demolished so before long there won't be anything left of the whole Morwell operation apart from a hole in the ground and what remains of the old coal to oil plant.

 

[sptrawler]

On one hand I most certainly do "get it" about the need for renewable energy. No argument there as long as it's done sensibly.

That is the crux of the issue, we all want a clean non polluted Earth for our kids and grandkids, but we both know it isn't by throwing ourselves on the cross.

Geez, I don't think people realise, the ramifications of this.

I think we are trying to put ourselves in front of the game, that is free power, but we are buying the technology from snake oil salesmen.

This is going to end badly.IMO

 

[luutzu]

That is the crux of the issue, we all want a clean non polluted Earth for our kids and grandkids, but we both know it isn't by throwing ourselves on the cross.

Geez, I don't think people realise, the ramifications of this.

I think we are trying to put ourselves in front of the game, that is free power, but we are buying the technology from snake oil salesmen.

This is going to end badly.IMO

Whatever happened to socialised utilities?

All homes need power right? Economy of scale mean it'll be more efficient if the power plant is bigger. So why this drive towards solar panel on roofs, batteries and no doubt gov't subsidies through either rebate for batteries or tax incentives for the like of Tesla.

Batteries and domestic solar panels have their place, in the outback or sparsely populated area. In high density area, build it bigger.

 

[sptrawler]

Whatever happened to socialised utilities?

All homes need power right? Economy of scale mean it'll be more efficient if the power plant is bigger. So why this drive towards solar panel on roofs, batteries and no doubt gov't subsidies through either rebate for batteries or tax incentives for the like of Tesla.

Batteries and domestic solar panels have their place, in the outback or sparsely populated area. In high density area, build it bigger.

Yes, we've been through that umpteen times, essential services should be run by Government.
But having been through the system, the argument is that competition drives down prices and the general public say that Government employees are lazy.
I have worked in both Government and Private Industry, I have found Government is much better run and are much more aware of accountability, but you can't sell that to the general public.

I guess also if I wanted to be a cynic, I could say, well you put in batteries to not have to pay for your grid connection.
Don't complain when it isn't there for you.

In my opinion, we are 10 years ahead of technology, and it is going to cost us.
This will manifest in a drop in living standards, IMO, I hope I'm wrong but I can't see any political will to stop the tide.

 

[Smurf1976]

All homes need power right? Economy of scale mean it'll be more efficient if the power plant is bigger.

That's how Hazelwood came into being.

The whole concept was about scaling up, massively so, in order to drive costs down. They later took that concept even further at Loy Yang.

Same principle applies to just about everything. If you increase scale then that helps get the cost per unit down.

PS - Unit 2 being ramped down now for the last time, production from the whole station now being down to 682 MW.

 

[luutzu]

That's how Hazelwood came into being.

The whole concept was about scaling up, massively so, in order to drive costs down. They later took that concept even further at Loy Yang.

Same principle applies to just about everything. If you increase scale then that helps get the cost per unit down.

PS - Unit 2 being ramped down now for the last time, production from the whole station now being down to 682 MW.

Yea, Australia got a big massive backyard that's sundrenched pretty much all day long. If some 18 panels at about $3,000 could supply an average Aussie home like myself, imagine the cost per unit/kW if a series of massive solar farm are done.

Compliment that with other newer, cleaner power plants and we'd be a long way ahead of job creation, carbon reduction as well as reduced costs on households... well, maybe not the costs since it's all privatised anyway, but even then the AGLs of our fair country couldn't be that greedy.

To go for household panels and batteries... the panels are practically all manufactured in China. The batteries will most likely be from Tesla or some foreign manufacturers.

So beside maybe a few mining jobs and good profit to S32 and BHP, not much to gain.

That and if we could reduce our carbon footprint, poorer countries like India or China can afford more of our coals and we all die a bit further down the track

Win/Win

 

[sptrawler]

I hope they start blowing Hazelwood up, next week, the sooner this is brought to a head the better.
ATM everyone is living in this fools paradise, how they think our living standards and welfare system can be supported, when our abilities to support it are crumbling around us.
Where the hell, do people think the money is going to come from?
People really need to think about it, what jobs, what industries, why build here?
It is bloody scary.IMO

 

[luutzu]

Yes, we've been through that umpteen times, essential services should be run by Government.
But having been through the system, the argument is that competition drives down prices and the general public say that Government employees are lazy.
I have worked in both Government and Private Industry, I have found Government is much better run and are much more aware of accountability, but you can't sell that to the general public.

I guess also if I wanted to be a cynic, I could say, well you put in batteries to not have to pay for your grid connection.
Don't complain when it isn't there for you.

In my opinion, we are 10 years ahead of technology, and it is going to cost us.
This will manifest in a drop in living standards, IMO, I hope I'm wrong but I can't see any political will to stop the tide.

True.

If most of us, say, put batteries and panels. It'll reduced the revenues utilities can generate, hence reducing its profit and business case.

The way efficiency and value are measured, profit margin have to rise and revenue better rise as well.

If batteries mean less demand and revenue have to rise... results in higher prices. Higher than their usual hike.

So we all end up paying for both the battery packs, the panels, its maintenance and replacement; pay indirectly for the mining and manufacturing of these and the inefficiency in small-scale installation... then either have to pay higher power prices or else it'll disappear.

Doesn't make economic sense if we think socially, collectively.