The future of energy generation and storage

[ghotib]

Kinda the way I feel about space flight

 

[SirRumpole]

Some thoughts on impacts of dams.

Every form of energy production has an impact. Coal mining, lithium mining, battery disposal, PV production all produce pollution and consume resources.

The cynic in me says your opposition to dams is maybe because they are not listed on the stock exchange and you therefore can't make money from them ?

 

[Smurf1976]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

ALL power pollutes. ALL of it. What we get to choose is what form that impact takes and where but there's no such thing as energy without some impact on something somewhere.

One aspect of hydro (and also biomass including wood) is that the impacts are pretty much "in your face" and very visible for anyone who chooses to have a look. Here in Tas at least, the Hydro is quite happy for anyone to have a look for themselves and indeed encourages people to do so via an assortment of recreational facilities, power station tours and so on. Snowy is much the same.

In contrast the impacts of fossil fuels and especially nuclear are pretty much hidden from the masses. Even if they do want to have a look you can't see much of it anyway and you won't gain access without working for the company involved.

Go back 40 years and there was quite a lot of public opposition to building a gas-fired power station in Melbourne, the public's preference being for another coal-fired plant in the Latrobe Valley instead. Long story short - half of that gas-fired power station was built as originally planned and the other half was instead built as an open cycle gas turbine plant, which uses more gas and emits more CO2 than the original proposal. But that's all good, people were quite happy with that, because those open cycle gas turbines are near Morwell not Melbourne and thus not visible to the masses. A bigger impact but people can't see it so they're happy.

 

[explod]

Why cant we dig a couple of decent well reinforced holes in the ground and go thermal. Maybe dig down at the Morwell pit.

A few cockies up my way near Bendigo (Lockinton and Diggera West) concerned about Turnbulls plan as they are not getting enough irrigation allocation now. And us activists concerned about the Murray drying up and its life fading as well.

 

[SirRumpole]

One aspect of hydro (and also biomass including wood) is that the impacts are pretty much "in your face" and very visible for anyone who chooses to have a look. Here in Tas at least, the Hydro is quite happy for anyone to have a look for themselves and indeed encourages people to do so via an assortment of recreational facilities, power station tours and so on. Snowy is much the same.

Some benefits of hydro not emphasised besides the power side.

Fishing
boating & other water sports
drinking water
irrigation water
flood mitigation

Some of the above may not be mutually compatible all the time, but with sufficient warning they can be. eg if a flood is coming the dam needs to be drained sufficiently to accomodate incoming water. If it is already full that could be a problem.

 

[Value Collector]

Kinda the way I feel about space flight

Space flight is needed, if we want our species to have longterm survival and have cool scienctific advances.

 

[SirRumpole]

I'd say there would be some flood mitigation and storage dams already existing that could have hydro plants built on their release gates ?

 

[Value Collector]

Every form of energy production has an impact. Coal mining, lithium mining, battery disposal, PV production all produce pollution and consume resources.

The cynic in me says your opposition to dams is maybe because they are not listed on the stock exchange and you therefore can't make money from them ?

In reference to your last point, I have no investment in Tesla.

I did used to own shares in pacific hydro ( the company that operated the ord river dam and many other hydro schemes, before they were taken over by a super fund)

I just see battery tech as an effective solution with minimal longterm Impact when you factor in that recycling of end of life batteries is going to be a zero waste outcome soon, and battery chemistry is progressing so fast that soon battery chemistry may produce batteries that effectively have near zero degradation over time.

 

[Value Collector]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

ALL power pollutes. ALL of it. What we get to choose is what form that impact takes and where but there's no such thing as energy without some impact on something somewhere.

One aspect of hydro (and also biomass including wood) is that the impacts are pretty much "in your face" and very visible for anyone who chooses to have a look. Here in Tas at least, the Hydro is quite happy for anyone to have a look for themselves and indeed encourages people to do so via an assortment of recreational facilities, power station tours and so on. Snowy is much the same.

In contrast the impacts of fossil fuels and especially nuclear are pretty much hidden from the masses. Even if they do want to have a look you can't see much of it anyway and you won't gain access without working for the company involved.

Go back 40 years and there was quite a lot of public opposition to building a gas-fired power station in Melbourne, the public's preference being for another coal-fired plant in the Latrobe Valley instead. Long story short - half of that gas-fired power station was built as originally planned and the other half was instead built as an open cycle gas turbine plant, which uses more gas and emits more CO2 than the original proposal. But that's all good, people were quite happy with that, because those open cycle gas turbines are near Morwell not Melbourne and thus not visible to the masses. A bigger impact but people can't see it so they're happy.

I totally agree that all energy has an impact, My point is just that using hydro dams as your chosen storage is as far as I can see not as versatile, cheap, or environmentally friendly as what batteries will be.

I mean Elon musk has said he can have a solution in 100 days or it's free, I would think that it would take a lot longer to get a pumped storage scheme up and running, am I wrong ? And what would be the cost?

I do totally disagree with you view on nuclear though, nuclear (including the few accidents) has the best history on pollution, nuclear power plants can point to their back lot and all their pollution is stored, neatly packaged in dry casks or sitting in pools, that is the dream of the fossil fuel industry, millions or dollars are being spent to try and get the fossil fuel industry to that position.

 

[SirRumpole]

I just see battery tech as an effective solution with minimal longterm Impact when you factor in that recycling of end of life batteries is going to be a zero waste outcome soon, and battery chemistry is progressing so fast that soon battery chemistry may produce batteries that effectively have near zero degradation over time.

There is no reason why it has to be either batteries OR hydro. I'm sure there is a place for both in the mix and as you pointed out a battery system can be built in a short time. But over the long term I think pumped storage will provide good value for money with other benefits than just power generation.

 

[Smurf1976]

There is no reason why it has to be either batteries OR hydro.

I've been involved in debates about energy throughout my entire adult life and if there's one thing I've noticed it's a shift to the middle.

Those who were strongly pro-dams a generation ago tend to see the other side today. There's a definite value in the natural environment "as is" which can't be measured in gigawatt hours.

Those who were strongly anti-dams at that time also tend to see the other side today. With all the problems associated with coal etc it's a reality that we're faced with "anything and everything that works" as the solution we're going to need. There's a role for nuclear, hydro, wind, solar and anything else that works. Even then we're going to be using coal and especially oil and gas for quite a while yet.

There's a valid role for hydro in the system certainly. Long lasting, big rotating machines with the inherent advantages of that, very proven technology and does what we need it to do. But I'll be the first to say that there is ZERO chance that we're going to run the whole country with hydro. ZERO.

So we're going to have wind, we're going to have solar and batteries will definitely play a role too.

Look at the situation in SA, a place with truly excellent wind and solar resources, consumption peaks in Summer when solar works best and which doesn't really use that much power anyway. They're having rather a lot of trouble going without coal and that's despite still using gas and oil.

Now consider how we're going to do this somewhere like NSW. The wind resource isn't as good, power consumption is far higher and there's a significant use of heating in Winter which makes reliance on solar more problematic.

We're going to need to use anything and everything that works if we're actually going to shift away from non-renewable energy sources. Hydro is by no means the total solution but it's part of it.

All this has a lot in common with, say, a car. The brakes, wheels, engine, gears etc are all useless by themselves but put them together and you've got a working system. Much the same applies to diverse energy sources and storage - you need all the bits working together in order to make the whole thing work. Take one out and then we're back to coal.

 

[SirRumpole]

I've been involved in debates about energy throughout my entire adult life and if there's one thing I've noticed it's a shift to the middle.

There is really only one thing that I know about power grids and that is that people like you should be designing them, not politicians.

I wish the b*stards would realise that and let experts do the job instead of plugging their own pet projects.

Wetherill made a blunder by trying to go 50% renewables and I think the Libs are making a blunder with "clean" coal, but if the experts say that these have a place in the mix then all sides of politics should accept that and get out of the way.

 

[Value Collector]

There is no reason why it has to be either batteries OR hydro. I'm sure there is a place for both in the mix and as you pointed out a battery system can be built in a short time. But over the long term I think pumped storage will provide good value for money with other benefits than just power generation.

Maybe we will have to agree on is agree, or call it my lack of imagination, but I just can't see how if we are planning to go 100% renewable, (which hopefully were are)we can build build enou pumped hydro to meet the storage demands, I reckon battery tech is going to completely leap frog that need.

 

[SirRumpole]

Maybe we will have to agree on is agree, or call it my lack of imagination, but I just can't see how if we are planning to go 100% renewable, (which hopefully were are)we can build build enou pumped hydro to meet the storage demands, I reckon battery tech is going to completely leap frog that need.

I don't know enough about the technicalities to argue with you, but as I said in my previous post we need experts to design our future grids not politicians.

Hopefully someone will see sense soon.

 

[skyQuake]

So I've heard that with the govt subsidies for solar ending, people are selling power for 5c and buying it for 40c. Is this mostly to do with solar generating during the offpeak (day) cycle and demand coming on during the peak (night) cycle?
And as an aside, would one of those shiny new tesla batteries in every household with solar mitigate that?

 

[explod]

A German coal mine will be converted into giant “battery station” to store enough renewable energy to power some 400,000 homes.

The Prosper-Haniel pit in the state of North Rhine Westphalia near the Dutch border, has produced the fossil fuel for almost half a century.

But now it will find a new purpose as a 200 megawatt pumped-storage hydroelectric reservoir.

Researchers from a number of German universities are working alongside private engineering companies and the government on the project.

• READ MORE

Renewables make up nearly 90 per cent of new power capacity in EU
They believe the elevation provided by the pit will provide an opportunity for hydroelectric storage.

It is thought that water will be able flow downwards, powering turbines and generating electricity, with water pumped back up again during periods of low demand.

"In regions such as the Rhineland or the Ruhr area, the lack of relief in the landscape does not provide the necessary height differences [for hydroelectric power]," the project's website says.

Work will begin when the mine closes in 2018.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-haniel-north-rhine-westphalia-a7648841.html

 

[Smurf1976]

Well today's the last day of full operation of Hazelwood. The shutdown begins tomorrow with 3 units to be taken offline followed by another 3 on Tuesday and the final 2 on Wednesday. After that it's all over.

It's still all working as such, though not overly well being so run down now and getting worse by the day. Presently producing 1276 MW so just under 80% of nominal capacity.

None of the other baseload power stations in Vic are fully operational at the moment either. Yallourn has 3 (of 4) units available to run. Loy Yang B has 1 (of 2). Loy Yang A had 3 (of 4) until one suddenly went to zero (looks like a failure) last night so now it's 2 of 4 that are running.

Apart from what looks like a failure at Loy Yang, a very sudden shutdown, the rest are just maintenance being done before Hazelwood shuts. They'll be good for a while after that but obviously this won't be the last time that maintenance is needed. Next time's going to be a bit more difficult....

 

[Value Collector]

So I've heard that with the govt subsidies for solar ending, people are selling power for 5c and buying it for 40c. Is this mostly to do with solar generating during the offpeak (day) cycle and demand coming on during the peak (night) cycle?
And as an aside, would one of those shiny new tesla batteries in every household with solar mitigate that?

My Dad is currently selling excess solar power back to the grid for 12 cents, and buying power back at 28cents. who ever quoted you those numbers needs to get a better plan.

Basically its simple retailing, if you sell a tin of baked beans to woolies, you will probably get 60cents, if you want to buy a tin of baked beans you will pay $1.20.

When you are effectively using the grid as your battery, you are being provided a service, the retailer making money on your sales and purchases is how they make money providing this infrastructure service to you.

you can get around this by using a battery on your property, but that also has a cost.

would one of those shiny new tesla batteries in every household with solar mitigate that?

The benefit of the battery is that the guy will solar panels can keep his power made during the day when he wasn't home rather than sell it for 12 cents, and use it later after dark rather than pay 28cents.

I have wondered whether using a battery that is charged during off peak times, even without solar panels might be a way to save money,

 

[SirRumpole]

I've been involved in debates about energy throughout my entire adult life and if there's one thing I've noticed it's a shift to the middle.

So, given that SA has short term problems, what is the best way to get them out of trouble in the short term?

They are apparently going to build a gas fired plant. It seems that these units are reasonably portable and can get going in a relatively short period of time.

What else wold you suggest ?

 

[Value Collector]

I don't know enough about the technicalities to argue with you, .

I watched a lecture by a guy who specialises in battery chemistry a few weeks ago, and he was basically saying the main reasons lithium ion batteries degrade over time is that plaque builds up on the anode, and he said this problem is being worked on by some of the worlds best, and he said the problem is likely going to be solved in the near future with additives that prevent such plaque build ups, and batteries will effectively be able to operate un limited cycles with near zero degradation.